WesWorld

Siegfried, Germany Armored Ship laid down 1932

Displacement:
12,037 t light; 12,580 t standard; 13,527 t normal; 14,284 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
492.13 ft / 492.13 ft x 65.62 ft (Bulges 82.02 ft) x 21.33 ft (normal load)
150.00 m / 150.00 m x 20.00 m (Bulges 25.00 m) x 6.50 m

Armament:
6 - 11.02" / 280 mm guns (3x2 guns), 669.80lbs / 303.81kg shells, 1932 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, majority forward, 1 raised mount - superfiring
6 - 5.91" / 150 mm guns (2x3 guns), 102.98lbs / 46.71kg shells, 1929 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on side, all amidships
3 - 5.91" / 150 mm guns (1x3 guns), 102.98lbs / 46.71kg shells, 1929 Model
Breech loading guns in a turret (on a barbette)
on centreline aft, all raised guns - superfiring
12 - 3.46" / 88.0 mm guns (6x2 guns), 20.79lbs / 9.43kg shells, 1929 Model
Dual purpose guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts
16 - 1.46" / 37.0 mm guns (8x2 guns), 1.55lbs / 0.70kg shells, 1932 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
Weight of broadside 5,220 lbs / 2,368 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 90

Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 12.0" / 305 mm 260.83 ft / 79.50 m 9.71 ft / 2.96 m
Ends: 3.94" / 100 mm 231.27 ft / 70.49 m 9.71 ft / 2.96 m
Main Belt covers 82 % of normal length

- Torpedo Bulkhead and Bulges:
2.76" / 70 mm 260.83 ft / 79.50 m 19.59 ft / 5.97 m

- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 12.6" / 320 mm 5.91" / 150 mm 12.0" / 305 mm
2nd: 4.72" / 120 mm 2.76" / 70 mm 4.72" / 120 mm
3rd: 4.72" / 120 mm 2.76" / 70 mm 4.72" / 120 mm
4th: 1.97" / 50 mm 0.79" / 20 mm 0.79" / 20 mm
5th: 0.39" / 10 mm 0.39" / 10 mm -

- Armour deck: 3.94" / 100 mm, Conning tower: 5.91" / 150 mm

Machinery:
Diesel Internal combustion motors,
Geared drive, 2 shafts, 26,968 shp / 20,118 Kw = 22.00 kts
Range 6,000nm at 15.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 1,703 tons

Complement:
626 - 815

Cost:
£4.913 million / $19.651 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 652 tons, 4.8 %
Armour: 5,332 tons, 39.4 %
- Belts: 1,688 tons, 12.5 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 521 tons, 3.9 %
- Armament: 1,409 tons, 10.4 %
- Armour Deck: 1,641 tons, 12.1 %
- Conning Tower: 72 tons, 0.5 %
Machinery: 796 tons, 5.9 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 5,176 tons, 38.3 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,490 tons, 11.0 %
Miscellaneous weights: 80 tons, 0.6 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
22,168 lbs / 10,055 Kg = 33.1 x 11.0 " / 280 mm shells or 5.4 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.15
Metacentric height 3.4 ft / 1.0 m
Roll period: 18.6 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 58 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.39
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.16

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.550
Length to Beam Ratio: 6.00 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 22.18 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 49 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 24.41 ft / 7.44 m
- Forecastle (25 %): 15.52 ft / 4.73 m
- Mid (50 %): 15.52 ft / 4.73 m
- Quarterdeck (22 %): 15.52 ft / 4.73 m
- Stern: 15.52 ft / 4.73 m
- Average freeboard: 16.41 ft / 5.00 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 81.3 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 106.4 %
Waterplane Area: 22,536 Square feet or 2,094 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 111 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 147 lbs/sq ft or 719 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.96
- Longitudinal: 1.40
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate

80 tons reserved for aircraft and future growth

Drat, never mind, forgot that CDS have to be under 8,000 tons, not under 12,000 tons. Back to the drawing board!

Well such a vessel could be used to replace predreadnoughts, as historical.

Too slow to be of great use, except in the baltic

CDS speed is limited by the Treaty to only 24 knots, so it's slow speed is not surprising.

...but then again the CDS is also limited to 8,000 tons so in a sence he has a point....kinda.

Revised to the correct Treaty size.....

Siegfried, Germany Armored Ship laid down 1932

Displacement:
7,877 t light; 8,357 t standard; 8,657 t normal; 8,897 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
393.70 ft / 393.70 ft x 65.62 ft x 21.33 ft (normal load)
120.00 m / 120.00 m x 20.00 m x 6.50 m

Armament:
6 - 11.14" / 283 mm guns (3x2 guns), 691.56lbs / 313.69kg shells, 1932 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, majority forward, 1 raised mount - superfiring
12 - 4.13" / 105 mm guns (6x2 guns), 35.32lbs / 16.02kg shells, 1929 Model
Dual purpose guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on side, evenly spread
2 - 4.13" / 105 mm guns (1x2 guns), 35.32lbs / 16.02kg shells, 1929 Model
Dual purpose guns in a turret (on a barbette)
on centreline aft, all raised guns - superfiring
16 - 1.46" / 37.0 mm guns (6 mounts), 1.55lbs / 0.70kg shells, 1929 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
Weight of broadside 4,669 lbs / 2,118 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 115

Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 11.0" / 280 mm 236.22 ft / 72.00 m 9.71 ft / 2.96 m
Ends: 2.76" / 70 mm 157.45 ft / 47.99 m 9.71 ft / 2.96 m
Main Belt covers 92 % of normal length

- Torpedo Bulkhead:
2.76" / 70 mm 236.22 ft / 72.00 m 19.59 ft / 5.97 m

- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 12.0" / 305 mm 5.91" / 150 mm 11.0" / 280 mm
2nd: 1.97" / 50 mm 0.79" / 20 mm 1.97" / 50 mm
3rd: 1.97" / 50 mm 0.79" / 20 mm 1.97" / 50 mm
4th: 0.39" / 10 mm 0.39" / 10 mm -

- Armour deck: 2.36" / 60 mm, Conning tower: 3.94" / 100 mm

Machinery:
Diesel Internal combustion motors,
Geared drive, 2 shafts, 10,038 shp / 7,488 Kw = 18.00 kts
Range 6,000nm at 10.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 541 tons

Complement:
448 - 583

Cost:
£3.670 million / $14.679 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 584 tons, 6.7 %
Armour: 3,574 tons, 41.3 %
- Belts: 1,288 tons, 14.9 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 472 tons, 5.4 %
- Armament: 990 tons, 11.4 %
- Armour Deck: 788 tons, 9.1 %
- Conning Tower: 36 tons, 0.4 %
Machinery: 296 tons, 3.4 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 3,323 tons, 38.4 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 780 tons, 9.0 %
Miscellaneous weights: 100 tons, 1.2 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
11,159 lbs / 5,062 Kg = 16.1 x 11.1 " / 283 mm shells or 3.0 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.03
Metacentric height 2.8 ft / 0.9 m
Roll period: 16.5 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 55 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.59
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.10

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.550
Length to Beam Ratio: 6.00 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 19.84 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 45 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 13.12 ft / 4.00 m
- Forecastle (22 %): 13.12 ft / 4.00 m
- Mid (50 %): 9.84 ft / 3.00 m
- Quarterdeck (18 %): 9.84 ft / 3.00 m
- Stern: 9.84 ft / 3.00 m
- Average freeboard: 11.02 ft / 3.36 m
Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 92.0 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 81.3 %
Waterplane Area: 18,029 Square feet or 1,675 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 97 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 135 lbs/sq ft or 658 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.95
- Longitudinal: 1.52
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is cramped

100 tons reserved for aircraft and future growth

Hmm, so a ship the same size as HMSwS Sverige, but carrying 2 more main guns, a lot more secondary guns and a lot more armour. SS doesn't sim such slow ships too well. It depends if you want a ship so limited.

http://xoomer.virgilio.it/bk/NWS/Kriegsm…dies/index.html

Should give you some ideas. Designs with 380mm, 280mm, 203mm and 150mm guns. No. 1 might be most suited.

Drat, minor annoyance: the secondaries should be mount & hoist mountings, not turret & barbette mounts, the turret & barbette mounts are left-overs from an attempt to install a 150mm secondary battery (removed because it was too heavy).

Sure, it's a rather limited design, as any CDS ship will be. Useful as a mobile shore battery or as a monitor, and as a convoy escort.

I wonder if you will find enough hull space on a ship her size (esp. length) for three main gun barbets. Even more so considering all the other stuff.

Well, the American New Ironsides did, and she's a bit shorter (though wider) than Siegfried. The two ships are pretty comparable: New Ironsides has a larger main battery and larger secondaries, Siegfried has more AA capability and is faster and longer ranged.

Quoted

Drat, minor annoyance: the secondaries should be mount & hoist mountings, not turret & barbette mounts, the turret & barbette mounts are left-overs from an attempt to install a 150mm secondary battery (removed because it was too heavy).

Don't worry. A few of my designs have the same problem. I have altered a few of them to have mount & hoist, but recently noticed that the Dairen class also has the "turrets (on barbettes)" bit. Still have to change that.

One thing I would look at would be, would 2 of these be better than 3 of a more "traditional" CDBB type with 2x2 main turrets (and more speed)?

(The Philippines might be willing to license the design of Dagupan (aka Panabo) ;-) )

I'm not convinced that in a pre-radar environment that 4 large caliber guns are going to be enough to get hits with any regularity against a manuevering target at longer ranges. Also, looking at Dagupan, I'm not seeing how I can get 3 of those for the same cost as 2 Siegfrieds, they're both right around the same size.

A CDS operates as as mobile threat supporting other coast defenses and light forces, to complicate enemy planning and hopefully deter him attacking your coasts. Done right, he dosen't even attack. In the "deterrent" role, the greater penetrating power of the 12" is more effective against enemy battleships.

And in a world full of ships with 14" and 15" guns, a ship with 60mm of deck armor won't survive long enough to hit back, and her speed won't allow her to flee. A ship that can resist a few heavy hits has a greater chance of damaging her enemy, and so is more of a deterrent.

Here's what the Russians are going to put on the Baltic in the early 1930s. Her long range and low draft are important, because she will use the network of canals presently under construction to shift between the Baltic Fleet, the Black Sea Fleet, and the Northern Fleet, as threats materialize:

Sevastopol class, Russian Coast Defense Battleship laid down 1931

Displacement:
7,566 t light; 7,998 t standard; 9,407 t normal; 10,534 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
393.70 ft / 393.70 ft x 59.06 ft (Bulges 75.46 ft) x 18.47 ft (normal load)
120.00 m / 120.00 m x 18.00 m (Bulges 23.00 m) x 5.63 m

Armament:
4 - 12.01" / 305 mm guns (2x2 guns), 1,038.38lbs / 471.00kg shells, 1931 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, evenly spread
4 - 5.12" / 130 mm guns (2x2 guns), 79.37lbs / 36.00kg shells, 1931 Model
Dual purpose guns in deck mounts with hoists
on centreline ends, evenly spread, all raised mounts
8 - 5.12" / 130 mm guns in single mounts, 79.37lbs / 36.00kg shells, 1931 Model
Quick firing guns in casemate mounts
on side, evenly spread
4 - 3.94" / 100 mm guns in single mounts, 30.51lbs / 13.84kg shells, 1931 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
16 - 1.46" / 37.0 mm guns (4x4 guns), 1.55lbs / 0.70kg shells, 1931 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
Weight of broadside 5,253 lbs / 2,383 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 80

Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 11.8" / 300 mm 196.85 ft / 60.00 m 9.84 ft / 3.00 m
Ends: 1.18" / 30 mm 196.85 ft / 60.00 m 6.56 ft / 2.00 m
Main Belt covers 77 % of normal length

- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 13.0" / 330 mm 7.87" / 200 mm 9.84" / 250 mm
2nd: 1.97" / 50 mm 0.20" / 5 mm -
3rd: 1.97" / 50 mm - -
4th: 0.98" / 25 mm 0.20" / 5 mm -
5th: 0.98" / 25 mm 0.20" / 5 mm -

- Armour deck: 4.72" / 120 mm, Conning tower: 11.81" / 300 mm

Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 2 shafts, 11,076 shp / 8,263 Kw = 18.00 kts
Range 10,850nm at 15.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 2,537 tons

Complement:
476 - 620

Cost:
£3.380 million / $13.521 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 552 tons, 5.9 %
Armour: 3,384 tons, 36.0 %
- Belts: 1,117 tons, 11.9 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 667 tons, 7.1 %
- Armour Deck: 1,486 tons, 15.8 %
- Conning Tower: 113 tons, 1.2 %
Machinery: 331 tons, 3.5 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 3,249 tons, 34.5 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,841 tons, 19.6 %
Miscellaneous weights: 50 tons, 0.5 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
13,334 lbs / 6,048 Kg = 15.4 x 12.0 " / 305 mm shells or 3.1 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.17
Metacentric height 3.0 ft / 0.9 m
Roll period: 18.2 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.33
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.01

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.600
Length to Beam Ratio: 5.22 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 19.84 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 47 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 70
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 13.12 ft / 4.00 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 9.84 ft / 3.00 m
- Mid (50 %): 9.51 ft / 2.90 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 9.19 ft / 2.80 m
- Stern: 9.19 ft / 2.80 m
- Average freeboard: 9.79 ft / 2.98 m
Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 56.6 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 64.7 %
Waterplane Area: 17,005 Square feet or 1,580 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 111 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 133 lbs/sq ft or 647 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.97
- Longitudinal: 1.31
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
Room for accommodation and workspaces is cramped
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform

I'll offer a comparison I've fiddled with: think a modern Brandenburg-style PD. Not much in the way of AA, because she should be off my own coast with friendly air cover.

Is it worth building? Well, it doesn't show up in my 1932 building plans at this point...

c, laid down 1932

Length, 120.0 m x Beam, 22.0 m x Depth, 6.0 m
8784 tonnes normal displacement (8208 tonnes standard)

Main battery: 6 x 28.0-cm (3 x 2)
Secondary battery: 6 x 10.5-cm
AA battery: 8 x 3.5-cm
Light battery: 8 x 1.5-cm

Weight of broadside: 1928 kg

Main belt, 28.0 cm; ends unarmored
Armor deck, average 10.0 cm
Conning tower, 28.0 cm

Battery armor:
Main, 28.0 cm / secondary, 3.0 cm shields
AA, 2.0 cm shields / light guns, 2.0 cm shields

Maximum speed for 7996 shaft kw = 18.19 knots
Approximate cruising radius, 8000 nm / 12 knots

Typical complement: 454-590


Estimated cost, $13.790 million (£3.447 million)

Remarks:

Relative extent of belt armor, 60 percent of 'typical' coverage.

Ship has slow, easy roll; a good, steady gun platform.

Good seaboat; rides out heavy weather easily.

Magazines and engineering spaces are roomy, with superior
watertight subdivision.


Distribution of weights:
Percent
normal
displacement:

Armament ......................... 530 tonnes = 6 pct
Armor, total ..................... 3351 tonnes = 38 pct

Belt 764 tonnes = 9 pct
Deck 1386 tonnes = 16 pct
C.T. 101 tonnes = 1 pct
Armament 1099 tonnes = 13 pct

Machinery ........................ 316 tonnes = 4 pct
Hull and fittings; equipment ..... 3481 tonnes = 40 pct
Fuel, ammunition, stores ......... 1105 tonnes = 13 pct
Miscellaneous weights ............ 0 tonnes = 0 pct
-----
8784 tonnes = 100 pct

Estimated metacentric height, 1.2 m

Displacement summary:

Light ship: 7678 tonnes
Standard displacement: 8208 tonnes
Normal service: 8784 tonnes
Full load: 9209 tonnes

Loading submergence 1783 tonnes/metre

+++++++++++++++++++++++++


Estimated overall survivability and seakeeping ability:

Relative margin of stability: 1.12

Shellfire needed to sink: 6573 kg = 21.6 x 28.0-cm shells
(Approximates weight of penetrating
shell hits needed to sink ship,
not counting critical hits)

Torpedoes needed to sink: 2.9
(Approximates number of 'typical'
torpedo hits needed to sink ship)

Relative steadiness as gun platform, 70 percent
(50 percent is 'average')

Relative rocking effect from firing to beam, 0.48

Relative quality as a seaboat: 1.40

+++++++++++++++++++++++++


Hull form characteristics:

Block coefficient: 0.55
Sharpness coefficient: 0.42
Hull speed coefficient 'M' = 5.83
'Natural speed' for length = 19.8 knots
Power going to wave formation
at top speed: 46 percent


Estimated hull characteristics and strength:

Relative underwater volume absorbed by
magazines and engineering spaces: 59 percent

Relative accommodation and working space: 107 percent


Displacement factor: 106 percent
(Displacement relative to loading factors)


Relative cross-sectional hull strength: 0.94
(Structure weight per square
metre of hull surface: 654 kg)

Relative longitudinal hull strength: 1.96
(for 4.10 m average freeboard;
freeboard adjustment -0.40 m)

Relative composite hull strength: 1.01

+++++++++++++++++++++++++


[Machine-readable parameters: Spring Style v. 1.2.1]

393.60 x 72.16 x 19.68; 13.45 -- Dimensions
0.55 -- Block coefficient
1932 -- Year laid down
18.19 / 8000 / 12.00; Oil-fired turbine or equivalent -- Speed / radius / cruise
0 tons -- Miscellaneous weights
++++++++++
6 x 11.02; 3; 0 -- Main battery; turrets; superfiring
:
6 x 4.13; 0 -- Secondary battery; turrets
Gun-shields
:
8 x 1.38 -- Tertiary (QF/AA) battery
Gun-shields
:
8 x 0.59 -- Fourth (light) battery
0 -- No torpedo armament
++++++++++
11.02 / 0.00 / 0.00 / 0.00; 60 -- Belt armor; relative extent
3.94 / 11.02 -- Deck / CT
11.02 / 1.18 / 0.79 / 0.79 -- Battery armor


(Note: For portability, values are stored in Anglo-American units)


+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

The Sevastopol is an impressive ship, definitely. I'm dubious about her ability to hit a moving target at range with only 4 guns, but her armor's certainly solid enough.

I've put a fair amount of AA-capable weapons on Siegfried because, while she should always be within range of friendly land-based air, that doesn't mean the friendly air will always BE there.

My original point is still there. SS overestimates the qualities of slow ships.

Historical Ansaldo design for Sweden in 1941;
15645tons standard
176.2m x 26.6 x 6.5m
30,000shp=22knts
2500nm@20knts
6x280 (3x2), 8x150(4x2), 5x120 (5x1)
200mm belt armour@15, 120mm deck and TDS system.

Why does this design need to be twice as large as ours that mount the same armament but heavier armour?

And your original point is valid. My drawing of the design I posted is quite crowded; I imagine the situation below-decks is no better.

Quoted

I'm dubious about her ability to hit a moving target at range with only 4 guns, but her armor's certainly solid enough.

Remember that Slava and her 4 305mm guns caused significant problems for the German "Operation Albion" in 1917. By deliberate flooding to induce a list, she was able to outrange newer German dreadnoughts and her fire was accurate enough to cause concern.

And Slava hit Goeben on her first salvo, and several times thereafter in 1914.