WesWorld

The full sim is posted in the Greek encyclopedia, here.

Looking at the sim for this vessel, I see a couple of points that ought to be addressed.

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Fuel, ammunition & stores: 241 tons, 33,8 %

One third of the vessel’s mass being fuel, ammunition, and stores is perhaps a bit excessive. It’s a point I’ve been called on over the years and I generally try to keep the percentage for warships down to 20%. Carrying excessive bunkers can bring a vessel’s tonnage down below the 499-ton breakpoint for construction time.

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Gunnery Computer for 130mm and 57mm guns (2 tons)

Since the vessel is armed with 105 and 40mm guns, I am going to guess this is a holdover or copy-paste error

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Miscellaneous weights: 106 tons, 14,8 %

In the details you’ve allowed 40 tons for the A/S mortar. I do not know exactly what sort of system you are imagining, but 40 tons is probably excessive for a vessel of this size. Reconsidering the miscellaneous weight could help improve a number of characteristics of the sim.

I am happy to read some opinions about this. I have the feeling that it went unnoticed the first time.

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<img src="https://wesworld.jk-clan.de/wcf/icon/quoteS.png" alt="" style="font-size: 1.1em;" /> Quoted

Quoted

Fuel, ammunition & stores: 241 tons, 33,8 %

One third of the vessel’s mass being fuel, ammunition, and stores is perhaps a bit excessive. It’s a point I’ve been called on over the years and I generally try to keep the percentage for warships down to 20%. Carrying excessive bunkers can bring a vessel’s tonnage down below the 499-ton breakpoint for construction time."

I think I can bring it down.

Edit: The ship is already unther 499t.

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<img src="https://wesworld.jk-clan.de/wcf/icon/quoteS.png" alt="" style="font-size: 1.1em;" /> Quoted

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Gunnery Computer for 130mm and 57mm guns (2 tons)

Since the vessel is armed with 105 and 40mm guns, I am going to guess this is a holdover or copy-paste error.

Probably it is. I probably took it as a reference and forgot to adapt it.

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<img src="https://wesworld.jk-clan.de/wcf/icon/quoteS.png" alt="" style="font-size: 1.1em;" /> Quoted

Quoted

Miscellaneous weights: 106 tons, 14,8 %

In the details you’ve allowed 40 tons for the A/S mortar. I do not know exactly what sort of system you are imagining, but 40 tons is probably excessive for a vessel of this size. Reconsidering the miscellaneous weight could help improve a number of characteristics of the sim."

As I said before I made it some time ago. I don't know what source I found or if I just counted the shells too (apparently enough to sink many submarines flotillas) or what. I will look for a more appropriate weight.

Quoted from "M_Fredi"

I have the feeling that it went unnoticed the first time.

I recall seeing it, but not looking over the design in detail.

Quoted from "M_Fredi"

As I said before I made it some time ago. I don't know what source I found or if I just counted the shells too (apparently enough to sink many submarines flotillas) or what. I will look for a more appropriate weight.

It depends a lot on what you'd like to do with this ship.

Personally, unless I'm designing something for inshore work (in other words, for the Russians in the Baltic, Black Sea, or Caspian) I've gone almost exclusively for +1,200 tons or more, so that I can include ahead-thrown weapons to make them decent ASW escorts. For anything smaller, I've generally stuck to depth charges only, although I've used a Mousetrap analog on some of those smaller ships.

From a tactical standpoint, I'd see this operating as a larger variant of subchaser. It heads out for a week at a time. It never goes far from the coast. After all, Greece doesn't need to fight the Battle of the Atlantic, here. Three days at sixteen knots would take the ship from Salamis Naval Base around the Peleponnese and... all the way to Mallorca. Looking at it in this way, the range currently incorporated into the design is complete overkill. 7000nm @ 16 knots is a bit over eighteen days at sea. I'd suggest lowering the range to 3,000nm @ 16 knots, which is just about eight days worth of range.

Since you're operating so close to home, then, the ship doesn't need as many depth charges or mortar reloads. I'd say enough for 3-4 attacks at most. After all, when the ship expends its ordnance, it's only a few hours to pop back over to the naval base and grab some reloads, then be back on the hunt with the rest of the squadron. And ships this small ought to be operating in packs anyway. If 3-4 attacks from multiple corvettes fails to sink the target sub, then the hunt's probably going on long enough that some ASW destroyers will be inbound to take up the job. With all of that in mind, I'd suggest twenty-four depth charges (four attacks with six DCs each), with 24 x 200kg = 4,800kg or ~5 tons.

Ahead-firing ASW is pretty much the same. The design doesn't say which system you're using, but a lot of them are pretty demanding of deck space. A Mousetrap analogue (as I referenced earlier) is one of the best options for a light ahead-thrown system, since the weight is under ten tons all told. I used 8 tons for the largest variant of the Chilean Kodkod, which is based off similar Atlantean systems; Greece can probably either buy an export version of the Atlantean system, or develop their own comparable system. The British might also have something in this weight range, but I'm not sure. The French and Russians definitely don't have anything in this category. But using Mousetrap as the example, you can fit an octuple launcher on the forecastle, and carry sixty-four reloads (a total of nine attacks) for 8 to 10 tons.

Now, a Mousetrap analogue has its drawbacks. Mousetrap has no stabilization and very limited capability for aiming or setting the range. You point the ship at the target, and you fire when you hit the necessary range.

This is why the French largely prefer to build ships of 1,200t displacement or more as their antisubmarine vessels: they have a much more complicated ASW loadout, and they need more space to make those work. The Russians do use ships of approximately this size (reference the Project 83 Avantyurin type small antisubmarine ships), but there are substantial differences here - and the Avantyurin doesn't have any ahead-thrown weapons (just standard depth charge projectors).

Quoted

Edit: The ship is already unther 499t.

After some experimentation I get what you were meaning.


About what you said Brock, I will take some time to experimentation. I am keeping the displacement dow 499 since I pretend to pump this ones out as fast as possible. The sub chaser idea calls my attention.

I didn't make changes to the misc weight (although i reduce it in 30t) since this is more of a preview than a final design. I am still thinking which ASW weapon I will use. The Mousetrap analogue have some disadvantages as you point out. Could the range change between fixed ranges?
Would a system as the hedgehog be to disadvantageous in a ship of this size?

Porject M2A1, Kingdom of Greece Corvette laid down 1949

Displacement:
498 t light; 522 t standard; 651 t normal; 754 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
219,28 ft / 213,91 ft x 20,34 ft x 9,51 ft (normal load)
66,84 m / 65,20 m x 6,20 m x 2,90 m

Armament:
2 - 4,13" / 105 mm guns (1x2 guns), 35,32lbs / 16,02kg shells, 1949 Model
Dual purpose guns in deck mount
on centreline forward
8 - 1,57" / 40,0 mm guns (2x4 guns), 1,95lbs / 0,88kg shells, 1940 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, all amidships
Weight of broadside 86 lbs / 39 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 200

Machinery:
Diesel Internal combustion motors,
Geared drive, 2 shafts, 3.609 shp / 2.692 Kw = 20,00 kts
Range 4.700nm at 16,00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 232 tons

Complement:
63 - 83

Cost:
£0,296 million / $1,182 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 11 tons, 1,7 %
Machinery: 87 tons, 13,4 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 325 tons, 49,9 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 152 tons, 23,4 %
Miscellaneous weights: 76 tons, 11,6 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
1.222 lbs / 554 Kg = 34,6 x 4,1 " / 105 mm shells or 0,7 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,10
Metacentric height 0,5 ft / 0,2 m
Roll period: 11,5 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 40 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,36
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1,60

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise forward of midbreak
Block coefficient: 0,550
Length to Beam Ratio: 10,52 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 14,63 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 58 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 20
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 20,00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0,00 ft / 0,00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 14,76 ft / 4,50 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 13,12 ft / 4,00 m
- Mid (50 %): 11,48 ft / 3,50 m (10,66 ft / 3,25 m aft of break)
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 10,66 ft / 3,25 m
- Stern: 11,48 ft / 3,50 m
- Average freeboard: 11,84 ft / 3,61 m
Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 70,3 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 104,8 %
Waterplane Area: 3.037 Square feet or 282 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 193 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 41 lbs/sq ft or 200 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 1,06
- Longitudinal: 8,45
- Overall: 1,31
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate
Excellent seaboat, comfortable, can fire her guns in the heaviest weather

Misc weight.
Anti-sumbarine mortar (40 tons)
Deapth charge raks and 100 deaoth charges (25 tons)
40mm automatic equiment (9 tons)

Electronics:
DRBV-9 surface and air search radars (1 radars, 7,5 tons)
DRBC-3B fire-control radar (1 radars, 4 tons)
DRBI-3 height-finding radar (1 radar, 7 tons)
SAGEM HF/DF (3 tons)
ASDIC (8 tons)

There remains a serious discrepancy in the miscellaneous weight of the sim, which indicates only 76 tons. Yet the detailed breakout including the electronics amounts to 103.5 tons.

The breakout hasn't been actualised yet and is incomplete (copy paste error. There is 2t more).

Well I made use of the block coefficient to reduce the displacement. I also increased the size of the ship.
About the ahead throw weapon I am sure that a Mousetrap like system is the best option. A greek design one I think.



Porject M2A1, Kingdom of Greece Corvette laid down 1949

Displacement:
381 t light; 402 t standard; 504 t normal; 586 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
228,47 ft / 223,10 ft x 20,28 ft x 9,51 ft (normal load)
69,64 m / 68,00 m x 6,18 m x 2,90 m

Armament:
2 - 4,13" / 105 mm guns (1x2 guns), 35,32lbs / 16,02kg shells, 1949 Model
Dual purpose guns in deck mount
on centreline forward
8 - 1,57" / 40,0 mm guns (2x4 guns), 1,95lbs / 0,88kg shells, 1940 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, all amidships
Weight of broadside 86 lbs / 39 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 200

Machinery:
Diesel Internal combustion motors,
Geared drive, 2 shafts, 3.029 shp / 2.259 Kw = 21,00 kts
Range 5.000nm at 16,00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 184 tons

Complement:
53 - 69

Cost:
£0,249 million / $0,997 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 11 tons, 2,1 %
Machinery: 73 tons, 14,5 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 236 tons, 46,8 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 123 tons, 24,4 %
Miscellaneous weights: 62 tons, 12,2 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
921 lbs / 418 Kg = 26,1 x 4,1 " / 105 mm shells or 0,6 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,11
Metacentric height 0,6 ft / 0,2 m
Roll period: 11,4 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 50 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,38
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 2,00

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has raised forecastle, rise forward of midbreak
and transom stern
Block coefficient: 0,410
Length to Beam Ratio: 11,00 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 17,12 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 53 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 25
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 20,00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0,00 ft / 0,00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 14,76 ft / 4,50 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 13,12 ft / 4,00 m (11,48 ft / 3,50 m aft of break)
- Mid (50 %): 10,66 ft / 3,25 m (9,84 ft / 3,00 m aft of break)
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 9,84 ft / 3,00 m
- Stern: 10,66 ft / 3,25 m
- Average freeboard: 11,06 ft / 3,37 m
Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 78,3 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 108,8 %
Waterplane Area: 2.908 Square feet or 270 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 171 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 32 lbs/sq ft or 157 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0,84
- Longitudinal: 6,09
- Overall: 1,02
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate
Excellent seaboat, comfortable, can fire her guns in the heaviest weather

Misc weight.
Anti-sumbarine ahead throw weapon (10 tons)
Depth charge raks and 48 depth charges (11 tons)
40mm automatic equiment (9 tons)

Electronics:
DRBV-9 surface and air search radars (1 radars, 7,5 tons)
DRBC-3B fire-control radar (1 radars, 4 tons)
DRBI-3 height-finding radar (1 radar, 7 tons)
SAGEM HF/DF (3 tons)
ASDIC (8 tons)
Gunnery Computer for the 105mm and 40mm guns (2 tons)