WesWorld

Here's a proposed German CA for laying down in 1930. She's intended as a warship, not a raider, so her range is only fair, with the emphasis on survivability and firepower.


Admiral Hipper, Germany Heavy Cruiser laid down 1930

Displacement:
12,970 t light; 13,570 t standard; 14,832 t normal; 15,842 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
678.77 ft / 656.17 ft x 68.90 ft x 22.97 ft (normal load)
206.89 m / 200.00 m x 21.00 m x 7.00 m

Armament:
9 - 8.27" / 210 mm guns (3x3 guns), 330.69lbs / 150.00kg shells, 1930 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, majority forward, 1 raised mount - superfiring
12 - 4.13" / 105 mm guns (6x2 guns), 35.32lbs / 16.02kg shells, 1930 Model
Dual purpose guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, all amidships
2 - 4.13" / 105 mm guns (1x2 guns), 35.32lbs / 16.02kg shells, 1930 Model
Dual purpose guns in a deck mount with hoist
on centreline aft, all raised guns - superfiring
12 - 1.46" / 37.0 mm guns (6x2 guns), 1.55lbs / 0.70kg shells, 1930 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
24 - 0.79" / 20.0 mm guns (12x2 guns), 0.24lbs / 0.11kg shells, 1930 Model
Machine guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, 6 raised mounts
Weight of broadside 3,495 lbs / 1,585 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 150
16 - 23.6" / 600 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 5.91" / 150 mm 360.89 ft / 110.00 m 9.97 ft / 3.04 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 85 % of normal length

- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 8.27" / 210 mm 4.72" / 120 mm 8.27" / 210 mm
2nd: 1.97" / 50 mm 0.79" / 20 mm 1.97" / 50 mm
3rd: 1.97" / 50 mm 0.79" / 20 mm 1.97" / 50 mm
4th: 0.79" / 20 mm 0.79" / 20 mm -
5th: 0.39" / 10 mm - -

- Armour deck: 2.76" / 70 mm, Conning tower: 5.91" / 150 mm

Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines plus diesel motors,
Electric motors, 4 shafts, 90,550 shp / 67,550 Kw = 32.00 kts
Range 8,000nm at 15.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 2,272 tons

Complement:
671 - 873

Cost:
£4.849 million / $19.398 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 383 tons, 2.6 %
Armour: 3,517 tons, 23.7 %
- Belts: 913 tons, 6.2 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 930 tons, 6.3 %
- Armour Deck: 1,597 tons, 10.8 %
- Conning Tower: 77 tons, 0.5 %
Machinery: 2,744 tons, 18.5 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 6,191 tons, 41.7 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,862 tons, 12.6 %
Miscellaneous weights: 135 tons, 0.9 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
21,571 lbs / 9,784 Kg = 76.3 x 8.3 " / 210 mm shells or 2.4 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.09
Metacentric height 3.4 ft / 1.0 m
Roll period: 15.8 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 60 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.63
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.21

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
and transom stern
Block coefficient: 0.500
Length to Beam Ratio: 9.52 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 29.34 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 54 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 30.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 3.28 ft / 1.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 33.46 ft / 10.20 m
- Forecastle (25 %): 23.95 ft / 7.30 m
- Mid (50 %): 20.67 ft / 6.30 m
- Quarterdeck (20 %): 20.67 ft / 6.30 m
- Stern: 20.67 ft / 6.30 m
- Average freeboard: 22.85 ft / 6.97 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 81.9 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 131.7 %
Waterplane Area: 31,324 Square feet or 2,910 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 122 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 127 lbs/sq ft or 618 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.95
- Longitudinal: 1.48
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

50 tons reserved for reload torpedoes and handling equipment

85 tons reserved for aircraft facilities and future growth

Triple 8.2 inch...that's different (for Germany at least).

Think of it as a small Scharnhorst. Or a Panzershiffe with smaller, but more, guns, or a bigger version of their CLs.

Germany would probably have built some before, but there was that awkward VT in the way......

I do agree that triples may be odd for Germany, but how boring would it be to conform to historical practice? Now if she had triples and some other inovative feature then I may raise a voice but everything else seems standard to Germany at the time.

She definately compairs well to the Atlantean Apollo class CA's, but they should considering they have an additional 2,000 ton displacement advantage which apparently go's to some serious armor.

I'm with Wes here. I like it - lots actually. It really is an armoured cruiser and something that can hold up it's own as a station flagship or something.

Triples really aren't odd for Germany, Germany built more ships armed with triple turrets during the 1920s and 30s than she did with twins (all 5 of the post-Emden CLs, the 3 Panzershiffe, and the "Twins" vs the 3 Hippers and the 2 Bismarks).

The only really innovative thing on her is the propulsion system: the diesel-steam plant isn't unusual for a German ship of the time, but the electric drive is. However, it fits well with the ideas that the older German navy had (a warship first must not sink), because it allows better subdivision of the ship and it allows easy cross-coupling of engines to propellors.

And thanks for the compliments, guys.

Turbo electric also weighs about 20% more than gearing turbines.

I can tell you now easily that all those guns wont fit onto that hull. I have spent the last few months trying something similar. It just isn't possible to fit all the main and secondary guns onto a small hull.



btw, this one isn't getting built.

Your main belt needs to be longer as well. 110m long belt on a 200m long ship won't cover A and C turrets.

Granted, turbo-electric is heavier than geared.

I'm puzzled, though, why you'd consider a 205 meter hull "small" or why it should have trouble mounting it's armament when there are the Danish Hels, the South African Cap Good Hopes, the Dutch Frieslands, the Russian Sviatoslavs, etc already extant.

Your both right to a degree, those guns as distributed won't fit, however if you place the 20mm in triples or quads they should fit. My Hector/Apollo class CA's could likely fit another pair of twin 4.5" mounts and shes on a hull 70 feet shorter.


Hector 11,300 tons, 585/66/24.5
9x8", 10x4.5"(5x2),8x40mm(4x2),18x20mm(6x3)

Admiral Hipper 13,570 tons , 656/68.9/22.97
9x8.27", 14x4.1"(7x2),12x37mm(6x2),24x20mm(12x2)

The Sviatoslavs have their 100mm secondaries in casemates, so they don't take up deck room. That will change when I refit/rebuild them in the mid-30s.

The Russian light cruisers following General-Admiral Apraksin have 12x 152mm in triple turrets, 12x 100mm in twin turrets, and 8x 37mm mounts that are twins or triples. So that's 14 mounts for secondary and AA armament combined. Admiral Hipper's got 25 (7 for twin 105s, 6 for the 37s, and 12 for the 20mm)

Ah, OK, it's the light weapons and giving them all good sky arcs and avoiding blast interference that's the possible issue. I was REALLY puzzled there for a bit. I suppose part of the issue is I'm thinking of how the late-war ships were festooned with light weapons (Baltimore with 48 40mms and 24 20mms, for instance) and not seeing a problem with the lighter armament on Hipper. Amusingly enough, in terms of numbers of mounts, Hipper has only 1 more mount than Zara, which she's over 20m longer than.

Looks like the thing to do might be to just leave off the 20mm armament when the ship is built, then if war threatens bring her back in and install light Flak as appropriate (the quad mount hasn't been invented yet in 1930). Does that sound reasonable?

I think she can be build as posted. A 205m long hull offers some space after all. It´s also a matter if there is one or two funnels, how large is her superstructure forward and aft, what kind of arrangement do you chose for her crane/catapult/boats etc.

The number of light mounts is quite high, though, and you have to install four torpedo mounts which also consume some space.

Best thing would be to have both a side and a top view.

I'm thinking the superstructure, single funnel, catapault and aircraft stowage, boats, etc, would be very much like the real-world Prinz Eugen.

Modified to extend belt armor.

Admiral Hipper, Germany Heavy Cruiser laid down 1930

Displacement:
12,970 t light; 13,570 t standard; 14,832 t normal; 15,842 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
678.77 ft / 656.17 ft x 68.90 ft x 22.97 ft (normal load)
206.89 m / 200.00 m x 21.00 m x 7.00 m

Armament:
9 - 8.27" / 210 mm guns (3x3 guns), 330.69lbs / 150.00kg shells, 1930 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, majority forward, 1 raised mount - superfiring
12 - 4.13" / 105 mm guns (6x2 guns), 35.32lbs / 16.02kg shells, 1930 Model
Dual purpose guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, all amidships
2 - 4.13" / 105 mm guns (1x2 guns), 35.32lbs / 16.02kg shells, 1930 Model
Dual purpose guns in a deck mount with hoist
on centreline aft, all raised guns - superfiring
12 - 1.46" / 37.0 mm guns (6x2 guns), 1.55lbs / 0.70kg shells, 1930 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
24 - 0.79" / 20.0 mm guns (12x2 guns), 0.24lbs / 0.11kg shells, 1930 Model
Machine guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, 6 raised mounts
Weight of broadside 3,495 lbs / 1,585 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 150
16 - 23.6" / 600 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 5.91" / 150 mm 426.51 ft / 130.00 m 9.97 ft / 3.04 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 100 % of normal length

- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 8.27" / 210 mm 4.72" / 120 mm 7.09" / 180 mm
2nd: 1.97" / 50 mm 0.79" / 20 mm 1.97" / 50 mm
3rd: 1.97" / 50 mm 0.79" / 20 mm 1.97" / 50 mm
4th: 0.79" / 20 mm 0.79" / 20 mm -
5th: 0.39" / 10 mm - -

- Armour deck: 2.76" / 70 mm, Conning tower: 5.91" / 150 mm

Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines plus diesel motors,
Electric motors, 4 shafts, 90,550 shp / 67,550 Kw = 32.00 kts
Range 8,000nm at 15.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 2,272 tons

Complement:
671 - 873

Cost:
£4.849 million / $19.398 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 383 tons, 2.6 %
Armour: 3,568 tons, 24.1 %
- Belts: 1,050 tons, 7.1 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 844 tons, 5.7 %
- Armour Deck: 1,597 tons, 10.8 %
- Conning Tower: 77 tons, 0.5 %
Machinery: 2,744 tons, 18.5 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 6,146 tons, 41.4 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,862 tons, 12.6 %
Miscellaneous weights: 130 tons, 0.9 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
21,713 lbs / 9,849 Kg = 76.8 x 8.3 " / 210 mm shells or 2.4 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.10
Metacentric height 3.4 ft / 1.1 m
Roll period: 15.6 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 60 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.62
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.20

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
and transom stern
Block coefficient: 0.500
Length to Beam Ratio: 9.52 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 29.34 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 54 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 30.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 3.28 ft / 1.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 33.46 ft / 10.20 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 23.95 ft / 7.30 m
- Mid (50 %): 20.67 ft / 6.30 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 20.67 ft / 6.30 m
- Stern: 20.67 ft / 6.30 m
- Average freeboard: 22.58 ft / 6.88 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 81.8 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 131.7 %
Waterplane Area: 31,324 Square feet or 2,910 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 121 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 126 lbs/sq ft or 616 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.95
- Longitudinal: 1.46
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

50 tons reserved for reload torpedoes and handling equipment

80 tons reserved for aircraft facilities and future growth

Here's a picture, based on a suggestion from Red Admiral and on the picture of Blucher at hochseeflotte.de.

I'd try to make the turrets about 2 pixels longer or so. It makes them more balanced.

A turret doesn't need a director if you are following German design traits and should be a bit lower.

Always good to have some graphical representation.

I lengthened the barbettes a bit to account for the larger barbettes on this design versus the real-world (going from two to three guns), so that's probably why it looks a little unbalanced. I'm not sure if lengthening the turrets would be necessary, though, since I don't know that adding the extra gun would result in any lengthening, as opposed to widening, of the turret.

Anton turret got a rangefinder because it made production simpler: only one turret design to build vs two, and with only 1/3 of the turrets going without rangefinders it wasn't regarded as a worthwhile savings trading off the cost of the rangefinders vs having a single standard for turrets.

Speaking of turrets, which ship does the yellow colour represent?

Heh, right now, the yellow turret tops are merely a national recognition marking, like the red-and-white diagonal striped foredecks on WWII Italian ships. Different ships will not, as yet, be assigned different turret top colors. So Admiral Hipper will be seen with yellow turret tops, as will her forthcoming sister Admiral Scheer, etc.

Quoted

Originally posted by thesmilingassassin
Speaking of turrets, which ship does the yellow colour represent?

Historically it was indeed HIPPER....