WesWorld

Because of the aircraft producers and designer of Iberia having had too little work in the last years, the Iberian aircraft industry is not exactly in the best shape now.

So, to update the Iberian Army's Air Corps,and to give the manufacturers the chance to work with high-performance aircraft, the spanish Ministry of defence is putting up a competition for several different aircraft models.


All the requirements are taken as a minimum.

All requirements call for a direct buy order plus a build licence for a certain production run.

Costs will be taken in account when selecting aircraft.



Specification A.101:

-Type: Land based single engined fighter.
-Engines: 1 (heh)
-Range: minimum 550 miles.
-Wingloading under 35lbs/sq.m
-Weapons: 2x20mm cannons + 2x.30 cal MG, or any combo with equal or higher equivalent firepower
-Ability to operate from rough fields will be a positive asset
-Pilot armor of 5mm or avobe
-Speed over 330mph@15000feet
-Climbrate over 3500fpm@sea level
-Ability to load bombs will be positively valorated but in no matter it should compromised the avobe-mentioned requirements
-Any competitor should agree to grant a licence so Iberia can build the plane by itself.


-The winner of this Specification will be awarded a 50 units order, and the licence will be for 250 units.



Specification A.102:

-Type: Carrier borne single engined fighter.
-Engines: 1
-Range: minimum 600 miles.
-Radial engines preferred, but if performance is good enough, in-line engines will be accepted.
-Wingloading under 32lbs/sq.m
-Weapons: 2x20mm cannons + 2x.30 cal MG, or any combo with equal or higher equivalent firepower
-Pilot armor of 5mm or avobe
-Speed over 310mph@15000feet
-Climbrate over 3200fpm@sea level
-Folding wings required
-Small size required (the smaller the plane, the better)
-Ability to load bombs will be positively valorated but in no matter it should compromised the avobe-mentioned requirements
-Any competitor should agree to grant a licence so Iberia can build the plane by itself.


-The winner of this Specification will be awarded a 20 units order, and the licence will be for 80 units.


Specification A.103:

-Type: Carrier borne single engined Torpedo bomber.
-Engines: 1
-Crew: 2
-Range: minimum 600 miles.
-Radial engines preferred, but if performance is good enough, in-line engines will be accepted.
-Weapons: 2x.30 cal MG fixed foward, or any combo with equal or higher equivalent firepower, one 0.30 or better MG in a flexible position, and 800kg of ordnance (torpedo or bombs)
-Pilot armor of 10mm or avobe
-Folding wings required
-Small size required (the smaller the plane, the better)
-Speed over 240mph@15000feet
-Any competitor should agree to grant a licence so Iberia can build the plane by itself.


-The winner of this Specification will be awarded a 20 units order, and the licence will be for 60 units.



Specification A.104:

-Type: Carrier based single engined Dive bomber/scout.
-Engines: 1
-Crew:2
-Range: minimum 600 miles.
-Radial engines preferred, but if performance is good enough, in-line engines will be accepted.
2x.30 cal MG fixed foward, or any combo with equal or higher equivalent firepower, one 0.30 or better MG in a flexible position, and 500kg of external loadout
-Pilot armor of 10mm or avobe
-Folding wings required
-Small size required (the smaller the plane, the better)
-Speed over 250mph@15000feet
--Any competitor should agree to grant a licence so Iberia can build the plane by itself.


-The winner of this Specification will be awarded a 20 units order, and the licence will be for 80 units.



Specification A.105

Type: Twin engined Destroyer/attack fighter-bomber
-Engines: 2
-Crew:1
-Range: minimum 800 miles.
-Ability to operate from rough fields
-Weapons: 4x20mm and 2x.30 cal MG fixed foward, or any combo with equal or higher equivalent firepowe, and 800kg of loadout
-Bomb bays are optional, and will be a positive feature
-Pilot armor of 10mm or avobe
-Wingloading under 36lbs/sq ft
-Speed over 300mph@15000feet
--Any competitor should agree to grant a licence so Iberia can build the plane by itself.

-The winner of this Specification will be awarded a 60 units order, and the licence will be for a further 290 units.



Specification A.106

-Type: Land based twin engined medium bomber.
-Engines: 2
-Crew: minimum 3, maximum 6
-Range: minimum 600 miles.
-Weapons: 4x.30 cal MG fixed foward, or any combo with equal or higher equivalent firepower, Good all-around coverage from flexible mounts/turrets, and 800kg of loadout.
-Internal Bomb bays required for at least 600kg of bombs
-The presence of an accurate bombsight will give a big plus to the model.
-Ability to operate from rough fields required
-Decent maneouverability required.
-Pilot armor of 10mm or avobe
-Speed over 240mph@15000feet
--Any competitor should agree to grant a licence so Iberia can build the plane by itself.

-The winner of this Specification will be awarded a 60 units order, and the licence will be for a further 290 units.




Those who want to enter the competition may do so with one or more proposals for one or more specifications, and may publish the details here or via PM.

In 1934 it's a bit early to be speccing 20mm's, even with WW's being 3+ years ahead of history. There are some 20mm cannon available, but the only planes with those guns that I can think of right now in WW are the Fw-42Bs that Siam has.

What's the date on the request?

WW PZL P11c has the same armament as the P24(2 20mm cannons and 2 machineguns) The P24 was one of the first aircrafts to have 20mm cannons, IIRC.

Quoted

Originally posted by Hrolf Hakonson
In 1934 it's a bit early to be speccing 20mm's, even with WW's being 3+ years ahead of history. There are some 20mm cannon available, but the only planes with those guns that I can think of right now in WW are the Fw-42Bs that Siam has.

The specification I think is open enough for not just cannons:

2x20mm cannons + 2x.30 cal MG, or any combo with equal or higher equivalent firepower

Anyway , the historical Oerlikon FF lightweight automatic cannon was in the market (in real world) by the late 20s. And it was purposely designed as an aircraft weapon.

As such, and even more in Wesworld, a 2x20mm specification is way off from being far-fetched for a 1934 fighter.

PD: Iberia doesn't care about the aircraft not actually having the weapons in their serial versions. It will be enough if there is enough "user weight" for the weapons mentioned, and if the wing is thick enough to get them installed.

Iberia would in that case buy the aircraft sans the weapons and fit the 20mms in Iberia (buying them directly from Oerlikon).

Quoted

What's the date on the request?

Current news posted belong to Q2 1934...so I'd say around June of that year.

But I agree with Hrolf here. As long as I recall those two aircrafts are the only one with 20mm guns, at least in WW. Maybe the De510 is alrwady on service in France but I could be wrong.

Nothing wrong, then, if iberia wants to have the third aircraft with 20mms in wesworld, right?

BTW the Italian Falco will carry one hub firing 20mm (and two HMG, so it qualifies for the specification) and according to the italian news it will enter production in 1935.

Anyway, the specifications are there, and there are several ways to comply with them.

1- Multiple MGs (with or without one 20mm cannon too) to equal the required firepower

2- modifying the model to allow for those weapons to be retrofitted at Iberia (if the model is not yet able to handle them)

3- Actually building the plane with the specified weapons .

Lets see how many contenders show up

Quoted

Originally posted by Hrolf Hakonson
In 1934 it's a bit early to be speccing 20mm's, even with WW's being 3+ years ahead of history. There are some 20mm cannon available, but the only planes with those guns that I can think of right now in WW are the Fw-42Bs that Siam has.

What's the date on the request?

There should be some 20mms running about.

The G-1As came with 2x 23mm Madsens, as per the 1936 real life design.
Likewise the 1936 Renard R-36 was designed for a 20mm hotchkiss cannon and 4x 7.7mm FN-Browning MGs. The cannon fired through the 910hp Hispano-Suiza 12Y-crs engine, which was designed for a motor-cannon.
Unusual still, but by no means unheard of.

Fokker, (Fokker-)Avia, (Fokker-)Atlantic Aircraft, Koolhoven, and Renard would be interested in proffering planes. Unfortunately, most cant meet the design requirements with designs currently developed.

None have current designs which satisfy the A.101 or A.102 requirements. While a some designs have a single 20mm or 23mm cannon firing through the propeller hub, and some others meet the range, none of those have that rate of climb.

OOC: I had a 2x23mm hypothetical Koolhoven design made, but the heavy armament boosted the plane weight and destroyed the rate of climb. Engines just don't have the HP to make it work yet.

Fokkers T.VI, almost ready for service with the Dutch Navy, meets A.103.
The T.VI is a Fokker Carrier-based Scout/Torpedo bomber. 4 x 7.92mm fore, 2x 7.92mm Turret aft. 10mm armored disk. 1,810lb torp. Nacelle represents semi-recessed torpedo, user weight includes 1810lbs (821kg) for the torpedo.

Fokker T.VI
1935 sesquiplane Scout/Torpedo bomber
Carrier/Rough Field
Crew : 2
Powerplant : 1 x 1065hp Avia Pegasus XVIII
Armament : 4 x 7.92mm fore, 2x 7.92mm Turret aft. 1,810lb torp. Nacelle represents semi-recessed torpedo, user weight includes 1810lbs (821kg) for the torpedo.payload, radio.
Armor : 10mm armored disk.
Payload : 2,010 lbs (200lbs + torpedo)
Range : 810nm at 160kts
Rate of climb : 1,193 fpm loaded, 1,657 fpm sans bombs
Loaded Stall speed : 66kts
Ceiling : 27,000 ft
Max speed : 230kts (265 mph) loaded, 384mph sans bombs
Corner speed : 188kts @ 9,000ft. , 21.1 deg/ sec
Weight (max) : 9,750 lbs
Cost : $29,000
Wing Span: 48 ft Length: 34 ft. Wing Area: 380 ft2
Wingloading : 26lbs/ft2

None of the manufacturers meets the A.104 requirement.

The G-1A (in the encyclopedia /Netherlands/ Netherlands Air Force / Fighters http://88.198.26.117/kunden/oponn/wbblit…did=3416&sid=is probably the closest youll find to the A.105 requirement, but still is lacking.

Modification to the plane, including eliminating the 2nd crew and tail turret & expanding the bombbay, installing a 10mm armor disk, and the desired 4x20mm, 2x 0.30 MG, is expected to increase the payload at radius to 1,715lbs (778kg). Price for the modified version on a 350 unit run would be about $57,000 each.

The last specification, A.106, can mostly be met by the Fokker T.VII medium bomber (same location as G-1A, except under heavy attack bombers). The plane would trade some payload capacity to ship the desired forward armament, and armor. The bomb sight is not the best, that is something they are still working on.

The single seat/engine, Atlantic Aircraft A-10 (light attack bombers) has the range, payload, armor, speed, maneuverability, and could fit a 2nd pair of forward MGs.

some comments for the dutch proposal

-Noted the Fokker T.VI entry into the A.103 specification.

-G-Ia is an interesting plane. The internal bomb-bay doesn't need to be enlarged. It's not a requirement after all (tho is something we would want to have in the aircraft we intend to buy) A mixed internal and external bomb load is acceptable.

We think that the extra cost for the modifications should be payed only for the planes Iberia buy. The rest of the order will be built at Iberia itself according with the modified plane blueprints, so, no extra cost here.

We will note this plane for the A.105 specification because, even though it does not meet the minimum requirements we recognize the plane has merit. We'll see what other contenders bring into this competition, but we don't rule out the plane.



-The Atlantic A-10 dive bomber perfectly fits into our A.104 specification...don't understand how "none of your manufacturers meet the requirement" ...unless of course the plane has no wing folding mechanism.


-Noted the proposed modified T.VII bomber for our A.106 specification too.

BTW Iberia will select the respective winners for this sunday . I didn't specify the date limit when writting the initial post.

Quoted

Originally posted by RAM

-The Atlantic A-10 dive bomber perfectly fits into our A.104 specification...don't understand how "none of your manufacturers meet the requirement" ...unless of course the plane has no wing folding mechanism.

That would be the issue Atlantic didn't consider carrier ops when it fielded the plane. edit: And have to date never designed a carrier plane.

As for the G-1A price, I simply meant that when I move Planebuilder's # built from 160 to 350, after the mods, the price drops from $60k/each to $57k/each as fixed costs are spread across more platforms.

For specification A.101 there is the already existing Fiat CR.35 which will be slightly modified to carry larger fuel tanks. Armament of 1x20mm FFL + 4x7.7mm is around the same as specced

For both spec A.101 and A.102 there is the paper design of the Reggiane Falco carrier fighter-bomber which exceeds the specs nicely. It can also carry a significant bomb load. The land based variant doesn't have to have folding wings. The prototype will fly in early 1935.

Specifications A.103 and A.104 are met and considerably exceeded by the new Breda Ba.67 Occhione. If needed, the lower-powered Alfa-Romeo 135 radial engine could be fitted. Because of a large order from the RA there will be few months delay in delivering the aircraft.

Specification A.105 can be met by the unusual Magni-Jona J.10bis by removing some of the wing fuel tanks and replacing them by either 13.2mm Scotti mgs or 20mm FF cannon. Again there will be problems in producing a number of aircraft quickly for Iberia.

-Noted entries for the falco and modifield CR.35 for the A.101 specification.
comment: The CR.35 falls a bit short of firepower (2x7.7mm MGs fall well under the firepower of one 20mm cannon) but the plane is otherwise more than satisfactory.

-Noted the wing-folding Falco entry for the A.102 specification.
Comment: Exceptional performances for a carrier-based fighters. The in-line engine may be a concern, though.

-Noted the Breda Ba.67 entry for the A.103 and A.104 specifications.
Comment: The iberian teams are impressed by the published performances of the aircraft, but is a bit worried about the high rated power of the engine causing low reliability or underperforming.

-Noted the entry of the modificated Jona J.10bis for the A.105 specification.
Comment: the radical concept of the J.10bis is seen with a bit of caution between the iberian air ranks who were expecting a more conventional setup of twin wing-mounted engines. However the specs of the plane are generally liked.


Regarding the problems with production being already coped and possible delays in the delivery of the production, and in the case that any of several of the proposed models are selected as winners, Iberia would be willing to propose a licence contract to build all of them, instead of the already mentioned purchase+licence plan we had in mind.

Makes political and military sense for both sides. Iberian and Italian armed forces further increase their common equipment and Italy still gets paid by giving a license to Iberia. In the political arena, Italy and Iberia further strength their alliance by this type of commercial transactions, especially if Iberia gets some kind of discount in the license fees.

BFW is still swamped with the Luftwaffe orders for the Bf-109 at the time of the tender, so it doesn't submit any bids.

Heinkel, on the other hand, submits a version of the He-112 to both the A.101 and A.102 specifications. The version for A.101 is equipped wing mounted Ikaria Werk 20mm MG-FFs (outside the propellor arc), but otherwise similar to the versions proposed for the Luftwaffe and under construction for various customers. The He-112T, however, is being first proposed to Iberia. The engine and fuselage is the same as the He-112B proposed for A.101 (except for strengthening in the aft fuselage and a tail hook), but the wings fold just outboard of the landing gear. The wing-folding gear adds an additional 300 pounds to the unloaded weight of the aircraft.

Focke-Wulf submits the Fw-187, equipped with Jumo-211s and with MG-FFs replacing the MG-151s, for A.105.

Dornier and Heinkel submit proposals for A.106, Dornier proposing the Do-17P, and Heinkel the He-111B (though the proposal replaces the Luftwaffes 15mm MG-151s with 1 20mm MG-FF and a third MG).

-Iberia notes the entry of the He112 and He112T for the respective A.101 and A.102 specifications**

**which He112 model you offer exactly? Which engine and performances? there were so many prototypes with different Jumo and DB engines with so many diferent performances, that I don't really know...I don't see the plane listed in the aircraft forums either.
I'll put some comments up after I know the engine/performances of the type offered.

-Iberia note the entry of the Fw-187 for the A.105.

Comments: the plane is liked in general terms, but it's lack of air-to-ground capability (Even in the mexican version it is pretty limited) denies it of any chance of winning the contract unless it can be modified to load at least 600kg of bombs (the specification calls for 800kg but the performance of the plane is very good and we could accept a somewhat smaller ordinance)


Entry of Heinkel and Dornier proposals for A.106 noted.
Comments:
-the heinkel version is rather slow and the internal bomb bay arrangement is generally disliked (the He111 had vertical cells for 50 or 100kg bombs. Bigger bombs had to be carried as external ordinance).
-The Dornier 17P is much, much more liked by the Iberian air staff due to its much better internal bomb bay and top speed.
-no comment is made about the bombsights of both aicraft. Clarification to this point is requested from Dornier and Heinkel.

The He-112 is using a non-historical Jumo-211B engine of 882 KW at 660 kg weight, so it's faster than historical but a bit heavier.

The Fw-187I for Iberia is based on the Filipino Fw-187P, minus the second crewman and some fuel tankage (max range 800 nm, vs 1000 nm), and with bomb racks added (300 kg per wing).

Actually, the modular racks in the He-111 carried either 4 50 kg or 1 250 kg bombs. The bombsight is nothing special, standard Luftwaffe issue.

Here's what the Planebuilder of the Fw-187 looks like:

Aircraft Type or Name:

Focke-Wulf Fw-187 I-1

General Type:
Airplane = 1
Airship = 2
Orbiter = 3
1

Year of First Flight: 1938

Description

Carrier or Rough Field
Monoplane
Conventional Fuselage

The Iberian version of the Fw-187 'Falke'. Equipped with 4 20mm MG-FFs and 2 7.92mm MG-17s in the nose, and 2 300 kg bomb racks under the wings.



Characteristics:

Weight (maximum) 12,600 lbs
Weight (empty) 9,562 lbs

Length 36.5 ft
Wingspan 50 ft
Wing Area 327 sq ft
Sweep 3 degrees

Engines 2
Junkers Jumo-211B
Piston

1,097 hp
at 12,000 ft


Crew 1


Typical cost $0.060 million in 1939
Total number procured 2000


Performance:

Top Speed 322 kts = 370 mph
at 12,000 ft
Mach N/A

Operational Ceiling 32,000 ft

Range 800 nm = 921 miles
with 1,379 lbs payload
1,463 lbs released at halfway point

Climb 2,436 fpm

Cruise 240 kts = 276 mph
at 25,000 ft

Corner Speed 255 KIAS =
305 kts at 12,000 ft
Mach N/A
Turning Rate 23.5 deg/sec
Radius 2,513 ft



Internal Data:

Intake / Fan Diameter 10 ft

Bypass Ratio 100

Engine Weight 1320 lbs
Overall Efficiency 22.5 percent

Structural Factor 1.00

Number of Wings 1
Number of Fuselages 1

Limiting Airspeed 450 kts
Wing Ultimate g Load 10.00 g
Wing Taper 0.5
Wing Thickness at Root 1.6 ft

Tail / Canard Factor 0.4

Number of Nacelles 2
Length 9 ft
Diameter 3.25 ft
Fullness 0.5

Fuselage Diameter 3.25 ft
Fuselage Fullness 0.35

Pressurized Volume 0 percent
Cargo Decks 0

Cleanness 75 percent
Unstreamlined section 2.5 sq ft

User equipment 1,600 lbs


The top speed is probably overstated when the plane is loaded with bombs, due to drag.

Comments on the He112:
-Good performances in a good all-around fighter. The Iberian staff likes it. Both versions are a good contenders for the A.101 and A.102 specifications.


comments on the Falke:
-Very interesting design, looks much better now with the bomb racks. Performance is again satisfactory. The only (relatively) negative point in it being the lack of an internal bomb bay, and the 600kg ordinance being less than the 800kg specified, but as already mentioned it is something the iberian air Staff can perfectly live with. A very serious contender for the A.105 requirement.

(Heinkel-Ost promptly begins tooling up for He 112T(P) production. )