WesWorld

Mikoyan Design Bureau associated with Irkutsk Aviation Plant announce exhibition of civilian and military aviation for Asian and Pacific region to be held at Irkutsk on 1 September 1939. Chief Designer Artyom Mikoyan clairified: "While Europe and United States remain leading centers of aviation, clearly Asian design and production capabilities are rapidly catching up. Japan and Russia of course are both recognized as leading aviation powers, but the striking growth of Chinese capabilities for instance is often not recognized. And because of Asia's vast distances, aviation will clearly play an increased role here as time goes on. Organizing an exhibition will certainly help publicize rapidly growing role of aviation in this region.

Of course, tours of "Jewel of Siberia," Lake Baikal, will be an added attraction.

And so a lineage is born...

Time for the world to wake-up to what Russia can produce. If WW goes beyond 1950 we're in for some treats like the MiG-15.

Well technically prototype first fight was 1947 the engine was even earlier 1944 so with WW rules Mig-15 can be created in 1945-1946.

So if wesworld ends in 1950 Mig-15 will be a plane that will replace my Messerschmidt's. The last fighter polish in this sim.

That is not saying that AdmKuznetsov will build it. La-15 looks just as good. Plus Mig was a bomber interceptor, and I don't think that fleet of B-29 will be that much of a fear that it was in OTL for the Soviets. As I honestly don't see a World War. The foreseeable treat will be a land war with the Chinese. In that case Lavochkin being a better dog fighter can win its premier fighter position form a easier to build but little inferior interceptor.

Hrolf and Admiral K. can go for a Cold War with each other. France Russian vs Germany USA.
Well they are too level headed for that but still.


As for what Russia can produce well, I WW we have Maxico Argentina as major players in aviation field. So new developments are hardly a wake-up call.
WW Russian navy is a first league player. Considering it neighbors like Germany Nordmark China and Japan that is not surprising.

Plus addition of French makes Russian Federation untouchable.

Luckily, jet engines are on their historical development times, so we won't have to worry about MiG-15s until 1947+. <Hrolf wipes his forehead in relief>

Thank God the He-162 first flew in 1944...

The RR Nine engine will be ready by 1945 anyway.
Can't see Hood not agreeing to give it too AdmKuznetsov.

As a side note:
Hrolf you will be ahead with jet engines development anyway, or at least on par with UK.
Will you build a Heinkel HeS 011 turbojet powered Sabre?

I despise jets. They have no souls. I'd happily vote for a -20 Year Rule for jets.

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Originally posted by Brockpaine
I despise jets. They have no souls. I'd happily vote for a -20 Year Rule for jets.

By 1950's propeller reached its physical peak. If we apply -20 years rule. Then currently build fighters can still be a front line weapon in early 1970's.

I wonder how many Bearcats and Helldivers can a Nimitz carry.

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Luckily, jet engines are on their historical development times, so we won't have to worry about MiG-15s until 1947+.

Well, even later, as Lyulka's designs didn't work very well until the early 1950s so we're probably spared the MiG-15.

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Thank God the He-162 first flew in 1944

and suffered structural failure shortly afterwards...

The most problematical thing about the early swept wing jets is that most were failures and all were dangerous. It's difficult to tell what would and wouldn't work without actually flying it - a problem for the paper designs we're likely to see here. It's a pity that there aren't more Italian designs from that period available, but some of the designs that were drawn up are really nice. It's probably best to be conservative with designs at that point and not push too far too hard too fast.

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By 1950's propeller reached its physical peak.

I think a modern propeller designer would definitely disagree with you there.

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Hrolf you will be ahead with jet engines development anyway, or at least on par with UK.

Germany ahead with jet design over the UK? Hardly. After the BMW 003 and Jumo 004 the way is rather less clear as the historical designs were focused on wartime production and use rather than performance. You've got to keep in mind what was projected on paper and what they actually achieved as well.

I don't see why the UK would gift Russia jet engines in WW.

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Originally posted by Marek Gutkowski
As a side note:
Hrolf you will be ahead with jet engines development anyway, or at least on par with UK.
Will you build a Heinkel HeS 011 turbojet powered Sabre?

I haven't really decided what to do with the later jet engines, though I have decided that BMW is going to stick with it's piston-engine development a bit longer than in OTL, resulting in no BMW-003 and the HeS-30 being developed fully instead (but the BMW-801F, and probably the BMW-802, will be developed instead). Another thing that is likely to happen is the later Jumo-004 derivatives (like the Jumo-004D, the Jumo-004H, the Jumo-012, and perhaps the Jumo-022 turboprop) are probably going to see more use than they did historically.

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Originally posted by Red Admiral

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By 1950's propeller reached its physical peak.

I think a modern propeller designer would definitely disagree with you there.

They may, but the problem of the propeller blade working in the vortex that it itself created it still exists.
Todays efficiency is higher but actual top speed and altitude will not change dramatically.
Top of the line pistons planes today are still Lockheed Constellation and Supermarine Spitfire. Engine will be smaller lighter and have more power, but the physical restrictions will remain.

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By 1950's propeller reached its physical peak.

I think a modern propeller designer would definitely disagree with you there.

As far as high speeds are concerned, propellers have reached their peak. Not much you can do when your tips are in the transonic region.

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and suffered structural failure shortly afterwards...

Well I do belive that the glue factory suffered catastophic failure from the sky falling on it. Also they were using reaaaaally cheap labor. I think that might have something to do with the planes not sticking together.

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The most problematical thing about the early swept wing jets is that most were failures and all were dangerous. It's difficult to tell what would and wouldn't work without actually flying it - a problem for the paper designs we're likely to see here. It's a pity that there aren't more Italian designs from that period available, but some of the designs that were drawn up are really nice. It's probably best to be conservative with designs at that point and not push too far too hard too fast.

The conservative approach leaves you behind, way behind. Design, build, fly, break, repeat...

At least on the up-side, the intrusion of jets will increase the divide between the aircraft built by large powers - like Atlantis, Italy, and Britain - and the second and third-ranked manufacturers. It's rather ahistoric to have so many aircraft designers and so few exports (which is why I mainly import or license-build, with a few exceptions).

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and the HeS-30 being developed fully instead

I wouldn't go for the HeS-30, the main reason being that there's not really any hard information available about the engine. If the information on wiki is true the Germans somehow managed to jump ahead to 1970s levels of technology and no one else noticed. "Abandoned for obscure technical reasons", I'm reasonably sure the technical reason was that it didn't really work. The HeS 8 is a more reasonable choice and rather easier, scaleable as well.

The Jumo 004H and 012 are designs for the 1950s; two spool engines are rather more complicated.

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The conservative approach leaves you behind, way behind. Design, build, fly, break, repeat..

That's extremely expensive though and doesn't necessarily result in a good aircraft. A conservative approach is better; look at the development of the EE Lightning through the 1950s, a progressive step by step research program resulting in the best fighter in the world during the 1960s. Even then, going for state of art doesn't always work - F4s, F104s and F105s being beaten by MiG-17s in Vietnam.

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At least on the up-side, the intrusion of jets will increase the divide between the aircraft built by large powers - like Atlantis, Italy, and Britain - and the second and third-ranked manufacturers.

At the moment I don't see the divide myself really. We've got countries with tiny manufacturing and technological bases producing lots of world class designs. Jet engines are rather harder to get right and really should exclude most countries. Italy can't really compete with the UK and Germany there so a more limited approach is needed; a single engine company producing designs one at a time, but with the resources to make sure it works.

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Originally posted by Red Admiral

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At least on the up-side, the intrusion of jets will increase the divide between the aircraft built by large powers - like Atlantis, Italy, and Britain - and the second and third-ranked manufacturers.

At the moment I don't see the divide myself really. We've got countries with tiny manufacturing and technological bases producing lots of world class designs. Jet engines are rather harder to get right and really should exclude most countries. Italy can't really compete with the UK and Germany there so a more limited approach is needed; a single engine company producing designs one at a time, but with the resources to make sure it works.

That's precisely the issue I'm talking about - the divide isn't there.

For what it's worth, none of my countries will ever design and build their own front-line fighter. I'll design fun stuff like the ENAER Coati trainer/floatplane, and civilian stuff like the Twin Condor, and some offbeat stuff like the Pillan (coming in 1939), but never a front-line fighter-interceptor.

Yes, we have more designs out right now. But most use outside engines. All the Mexican designs use US engines, while the Australian ones use British, and I think Argentina uses Atlantean. Jet engines won't change that. Mexico will just buy US (or hopefully German, Hes01?).

My country will not design anything new.
What I have now on the drawing boards will last me till Springsharp expiry date.
I will however build license planes, and I don't think any of them will have more that a single engine.
OTL Poland stopped making fighters with the Mig-17.
And that was with massive industrial aid coming from USSR.

The HeS-008 was cancelled for good reasons: too big in diameter, too late, too little power. Other accounts of the cancellation of the HeS-30/-006 have it being just a simple matter of a bureaucrat making the wrong decision: we've got too many generation 1 jet engines, lets keep the BMW-003 (bad decision) and the Jumo-004 (good decision) and kill the HeS-008 (good) and the HeS-006 (bad). Hardly the only time in history a bad decision has been made. Here in WW, I can delay BMW's interest in jets so they can support the BMW-801F/T and BMW-802 projects (which I'll need), with the result that the HeS-30 will be the second Gen 1 engine kept (the HeS-008 will be cancelled as historical).

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Other accounts of the cancellation of the HeS-30/-006 have it being just a simple matter of a bureaucrat making the wrong decision

The problem is that that excuse is used for every advanced German project regardless of whether they're reasonable or even sane. There's the added problem that there simply isn't that much information available and no ideas on whether it's accurate. Another jet example would be the Lockheed J37, the available specs make it seem to be awesome engine; it's only when you look at it in a bit more detail it becomes obvious that they're nonsense.

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Mexico will just buy US (or hopefully German, Hes01?)

and Italian spies will steal whatever technology I think is useful or cool. That doesn't make it reasonable.