WesWorld

Better late then never....

October 1, 1926

Hussien Rauf, Naval Minister of the Republic of Turkey has brokered a deal with the SAE to purchase naval weapons for Turkey in an effort to standardize the weapons carried by the navy. Several 150mm,105mm and 88mm guns have been purchased, and in addition licenced versions of the 105mm and 88mm will be built in Turkey.
"there presently is a large disparity of weapons in the Turkish fleet" the Minister exclaimed, "this deal and other planned deals will help to aleviate this problem and also keep our ship yards busy refitting the ships of the fleet."
Currently the protected cruisers Hamidieh and Medjidieh are undergoing refit and will recieve some of the purchased weapons near the end of their rebuilds. In addition the new Mine warfare ships of the Timsah class will now recieve the South African built 88mm guns.

October 7, 1926

Hussien Rauf, Naval Minister of the Republic of Turkey has been a busy man. He dosn't wish to disappoint President Mustafa Kemel. In an effort to transform the fleet into a modern and well trained service he met to day with his Italian counterpart to discuss the purchase of Italian weapons. After arriving on the Cruiser Saldiray he breifly toured the shipyards at Taranto to oversee the current rebuilding of the Armoured Cruiser Ulic Ali Reis. "Shes coming along quite nicely!" he exclaimed joyously.

October 9, 1926

In his visit to Italy Hussien Rauf, Naval Minister of the Republic of Turkey managed another deal that will see the purchase of 5.1"/130 and 37mm guns. The purchase effectively takes care of all armaments for warships of light cruisers down to the smallest of vessels. The minister exchanged further plesantry's with his Italian hosts and then departed on the CL Saldiray accompanied by the destroyers Muvanet-i-Milet and Noumoune-i-hamiyet.

November 5, 1926

Our glorious leader, president mustafa kemel has expressed his interest in changing the Capital of the Republic of Turkey for a number of reasons.

"The current capital of Istambul has been the subject of much friction between Turkey and its nabours due to the religious implications of its creation. The Turkish people will never shy away from our religion!

However the fact that Istambul is precariously exposed to foreign invaders is to obvious to deny. We must therefore take steps to protect our country from possible humiliation."

The president has taken his idea to the Grand National Assembly, which resides in Ankara.

November 12, 1926

Hussien Rauf, Naval Minister of the Republic of Turkey annoced today the tentative plans to aquire some modern destroyers. "There are a number of potential sorces for foreign builds allthough we would rather build the ships locally." The minister continued, "The Naval buget allows for the procurment of these ships at the end of 1927, when our financial commitments to other nations have been fullfilled. The contract only needs to be approved by the Grand National Assembly."


December 8, 1926

The Caliph has been abolished and the last Ottoman ruler,Caliph Abdul Mejid II has been deposed! The last Uthmani (Ottoman) Khilafah (Caliph) title and powers were transferred from the Ottoman family line to the Turkish Grand National Assembly, meaning no individual could thereafter possess the title. The Turkish Directorate of Religious Affairs (Diyanet) still fulfills the duties of the khalifa within Turkey.

President Mustafa Kemel, admitingly not an overly religious man has decreed that the separation of Church and state must occur if the Republic of Turkey is to prosper. "The Quran must guide us, not inslave us."

December 9, 1926

Several incedents of violence took place just one day after the Caliph was abolished, the Turkish authority's however quickly put an end to the civil disobedience. Several civil disobedients were injured as were two policemen.
The incedents display some of the resistance to Mustafa Kemals reforms.

December 11, 1926

Delivery of the first 88mm weapons for Turkey from South Africa has been recieved. The cruisers Hamidieh and Medjidieh along with the Timsah class mine warfare ships eagerly await the fitting of these weapons.

Ahem.......PLANES??????

I thought we were still working on a price? At either rate Q1/27 is upon us, we can do the deal then.

"November 12, 1926

Hussien Rauf, Naval Minister of the Republic of Turkey annoced today the tentative plans to aquire some modern destroyers. "There are a number of potential sorces for foreign builds allthough we would rather build the ships locally." The minister continued, "The Naval buget allows for the procurment of these ships at the end of 1927, when our financial commitments to other nations have been fullfilled. The contract only needs to be approved by the Grand National Assembly." "

As always news like this fall on frutile ground in the SAE and naval architects and ship designers all over the Empire are already browsing their domestic design and are willing to share either their knowledge or help to build the Turks a ship to their own specifications....

The Italian firm of Ansaldo is not too quickly brushing up plans for the latest Italian destroyers. It is expected that the Italian designs should have a clear advantage as they are also Meditterenean designs. Ansaldo also seems to have considerable sources within Turkey..

Only if you sell your best you can make good deals - and I´ll plan to establish the SAE as the No.1 arms trader. ;o)

Hee hee, I love competition, it means you can get an excellent design for a good price.

The Republic of Turkey will be taking all designs into consideration before choosing a design/s.

The designers finally adopted their DD27-design with the gun calibers prefered by the Turks. This is the result and the contender send into the race by South Africa - in the absence of clear specifications.

DD27, Turkish Destroyer laid down 1927

Displacement:
1.613 t light; 1.678 t standard; 1.910 t normal; 2.096 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
373,55 ft / 359,25 ft x 36,09 ft x 13,22 ft (normal load)
113,86 m / 109,50 m x 11,00 m x 4,03 m

Armament:
5 - 5,12" / 130 mm guns in single mounts, 67,03lbs / 30,41kg shells, 1927 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts
on centreline ends, majority forward, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
4 - 1,46" / 37,0 mm guns (2x2 guns), 1,55lbs / 0,70kg shells, 1927 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, all amidships
4 - 0,79" / 20,0 mm guns (2x2 guns), 0,24lbs / 0,11kg shells, 1927 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 342 lbs / 155 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 140
6 - 21,0" / 533 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 0,79" / 20 mm 0,39" / 10 mm -
2nd: 0,59" / 15 mm - -
3rd: 0,39" / 10 mm - -

Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 2 shafts, 43.325 shp / 32.321 Kw = 35,00 kts
Range 5.000nm at 15,00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 418 tons

Complement:
143 - 187

Cost:
£0,853 million / $3,413 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 43 tons, 2,2%
Armour: 11 tons, 0,6%
- Belts: 0 tons, 0,0%
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0,0%
- Armament: 11 tons, 0,6%
- Armour Deck: 0 tons, 0,0%
- Conning Tower: 0 tons, 0,0%
Machinery: 1.016 tons, 53,2%
Hull, fittings & equipment: 543 tons, 28,4%
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 297 tons, 15,6%
Miscellaneous weights: 0 tons, 0,0%

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
487 lbs / 221 Kg = 7,3 x 5,1 " / 130 mm shells or 0,3 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,42
Metacentric height 2,0 ft / 0,6 m
Roll period: 10,7 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,23
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1,00

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise forward of midbreak
and transom stern
Block coefficient: 0,390
Length to Beam Ratio: 9,95 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 21,97 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 68 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 70
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 30,00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0,00 ft / 0,00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 24,77 ft / 7,55 m
- Forecastle (30%): 18,54 ft / 5,65 m
- Mid (50%): 18,54 ft / 5,65 m (10,76 ft / 3,28 m aft of break)
- Quarterdeck (15%): 10,76 ft / 3,28 m
- Stern: 10,76 ft / 3,28 m
- Average freeboard: 15,40 ft / 4,69 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 188,7%
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 101,6%
Waterplane Area: 8.238 Square feet or 765 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 62%
Structure weight / hull surface area: 34 lbs/sq ft or 167 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0,50
- Longitudinal: 2,00
- Overall: 0,57
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform

A very nice design indeed allthough surprizingly she lacks any miscellaneous weight for depth charges, the Greeks being the biggest threat possess subs were as Turkey does not. Her speed is superb.

I wouldn't be surprised if you removed one turret and slightly dropped the speed, you might have a useful number of DCs with a speed that is still in excess of 34.5 knots.

If you drop her power output to 32,000 kW for a speed of 34,9162kn and if you decrease donation for her main guns to 130 shells/barrel you can gain 10ts of misc weight (=40 DCs).

However, some DC you´ll always be able to carry as deck load.... Misc weight is IMHO more important for mines than for DCs.

The way I read "Miscellaneous weight" in a Destroyer report is "Depth charges and torpedoes".

I guess you mean "spare torpedoes" - a first set comes with the tubes, methinks.

I´m fine with using misc weight for DCs. Still, any ship can have a handful as deck storage. Probably no throwers etc. but some to roll over a ships stern.

Not that I feel the need to push that point. If everybody uses misc weight - so will I.

If I throw 10,000,000,000,000,000 torpedo tubes onto a ship design with SS, the hull strength does not change which leads me to believe that torpedoes are not included with the torpedo tubes. So in essence if you put 6 torpedo tubes on a ship and no miscellaneous weight, you have nothing to put into the torpedo tubes.
However such a large number has an influence on the stability and seaboat rating (1000 is enough to drop both stability and seaboat rating on a 6,000 ton ship to 0.00).

... actually I am so sure about torpedoes not being included with the tubes that I used torpedo bulkhead to sim torpedoes on a midget submarine.

The Philippines offers the Turks this design...

Filipino Cerceta-class destroyer, laid down 1926

Displacement:
1,268 t light; 1,338 t standard; 1,463 t normal; 1,563 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
333.13 ft / 325.79 ft x 31.50 ft x 12.80 ft (normal load)
101.54 m / 99.30 m x 9.60 m x 3.90 m

Armament:
4 - 5.12" / 130 mm guns in single mounts, 70.00lbs / 31.75kg shells, 1926 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts with hoists
on centreline ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
6 - 1.46" / 37.0 mm guns (1x6 guns), 1.55lbs / 0.70kg shells, 1926 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in a deck mount
on centreline amidships, all raised guns
4 - 0.79" / 20.0 mm guns (2x2 guns), 0.24lbs / 0.11kg shells, 1926 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, all forward, all raised mounts
8 - 0.54" / 13.7 mm guns (4x2 guns), 0.11lbs / 0.05kg shells, 1926 Model
Machine guns in deck mounts
on side ends, evenly spread, all raised mounts

Weight of broadside 294 lbs / 133 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 250

6 - 21.0" / 533.4 mm above water torpedoes

Depth charges @ 550lb each: 100
or Mines @ 1,000lb each: 78

Armour:
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 1.57" / 40 mm - -
2nd: 0.79" / 20 mm - -
3rd: 0.59" / 15 mm - -

Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 2 shafts, 33,495 shp / 24,987 Kw = 33.85 kts
Range 5,000nm at 12.00 kts (Bunkerage = 225 tons)

Complement:
117 - 153

Cost:
£0.612 million / $2.448 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 35 tons, 2.4 %
Armour: 20 tons, 1.4 %
- Belts: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 20 tons, 1.4 %
- Armour Deck: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Conning Tower: 0 tons, 0.0 %
Machinery: 738 tons, 50.4 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 439 tons, 30.0 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 196 tons, 13.4 %
Miscellaneous weights: 36 tons, 2.4 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
333 lbs / 151 Kg = 5.0 x 5.1 " / 130 mm shells or 0.2 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.16
Metacentric height 1.2 ft / 0.4 m
Roll period: 12.3 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 50 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.62
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 0.75

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise forward of midbreak
and transom stern
Block coefficient: 0.390
Length to Beam Ratio: 10.34 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 20.85 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 68 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 66
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 20.00 degrees
Stern overhang: -2.00 ft / -0.61 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 20.18 ft / 6.15 m
- Forecastle (15 %): 17.06 ft / 5.20 m
- Mid (35 %): 17.06 ft / 5.20 m (10.33 ft / 3.15 m aft of break)
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 10.33 ft / 3.15 m
- Stern: 10.33 ft / 3.15 m
- Average freeboard: 12.88 ft / 3.92 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 185.1 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 77.7 %
Waterplane Area: 6,520 Square feet or 606 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 59 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 35 lbs/sq ft or 172 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.50
- Longitudinal: 1.67
- Overall: 0.57
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
Room for accommodation and workspaces is cramped
Poor seaboat, wet and uncomfortable, reduced performance in heavy weather

The Royal Danish Design Bureau would like to offer the following designs.......

Destroyer (Light) 1927, Turkey DD(L) laid down 1927

Displacement:
1,538 t light; 1,598 t standard; 1,737 t normal; 1,848 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
372.28 ft / 360.00 ft x 34.00 ft x 13.00 ft (normal load)
113.47 m / 109.73 m x 10.36 m x 3.96 m

Armament:
4 - 5.12" / 130 mm guns in single mounts, 67.03lbs / 30.40kg shells, 1927 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts
on centreline ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
8 - 1.46" / 37.0 mm guns (4x2 guns), 1.55lbs / 0.70kg shells, 1927 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, all amidships, all raised mounts - superfiring
8 - 0.79" / 20.0 mm guns (4x2 guns), 0.24lbs / 0.11kg shells, 1927 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, 1 raised mount
Weight of broadside 282 lbs / 128 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 150
4 - 21.0" / 533.4 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 0.79" / 20 mm 0.39" / 10 mm -
2nd: 0.59" / 15 mm - -
3rd: 0.59" / 15 mm - -

- Conning tower: 0.59" / 15 mm

Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 2 shafts, 40,430 shp / 30,161 Kw = 35.00 kts
Range 5,000nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 250 tons

Complement:
133 - 174

Cost:
£0.768 million / $3.071 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 35 tons, 2.0 %
Armour: 12 tons, 0.7 %
- Belts: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 10 tons, 0.6 %
- Armour Deck: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Conning Tower: 2 tons, 0.1 %
Machinery: 912 tons, 52.5 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 519 tons, 29.9 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 198 tons, 11.4 %
Miscellaneous weights: 60 tons, 3.5 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
445 lbs / 202 Kg = 6.6 x 5.1 " / 130 mm shells or 0.3 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.25
Metacentric height 1.5 ft / 0.5 m
Roll period: 11.7 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.29
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.01

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise forward of midbreak
and transom stern
Block coefficient: 0.382
Length to Beam Ratio: 10.59 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 21.91 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 67 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 70
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 20.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 5.00 ft / 1.52 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 19.00 ft / 5.79 m
- Mid (53 %): 18.00 ft / 5.49 m (10.00 ft / 3.05 m aft of break)
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 10.00 ft / 3.05 m
- Stern: 10.00 ft / 3.05 m
- Average freeboard: 14.69 ft / 4.48 m
Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 188.7 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 123.1 %
Waterplane Area: 7,749 Square feet or 720 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 60 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 34 lbs/sq ft or 167 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.50
- Longitudinal: 1.98
- Overall: 0.58
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform



Destroyer 1927, Turkey DD laid down 1927

Displacement:
1,966 t light; 2,041 t standard; 2,210 t normal; 2,345 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
401.55 ft / 385.00 ft x 37.00 ft x 14.00 ft (normal load)
122.39 m / 117.35 m x 11.28 m x 4.27 m

Armament:
5 - 5.12" / 130 mm guns in single mounts, 67.03lbs / 30.40kg shells, 1927 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
on centreline ends, majority aft, 3 raised mounts - superfiring
8 - 1.46" / 37.0 mm guns (4x2 guns), 1.55lbs / 0.70kg shells, 1927 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, all amidships, all raised mounts - superfiring
8 - 0.79" / 20.0 mm guns (4x2 guns), 0.24lbs / 0.11kg shells, 1927 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
Weight of broadside 349 lbs / 159 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 150
8 - 21.0" / 533.4 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 0.79" / 20 mm 0.39" / 10 mm -
2nd: 0.59" / 15 mm - -
3rd: 0.59" / 15 mm - -

- Conning tower: 0.59" / 15 mm

Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 2 shafts, 45,768 shp / 34,143 Kw = 35.00 kts
Range 5,250nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 305 tons

Complement:
160 - 209

Cost:
£0.968 million / $3.874 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 44 tons, 2.0 %
Armour: 14 tons, 0.7 %
- Belts: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 12 tons, 0.6 %
- Armour Deck: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Conning Tower: 2 tons, 0.1 %
Machinery: 1,149 tons, 52.0 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 680 tons, 30.8 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 244 tons, 11.0 %
Miscellaneous weights: 80 tons, 3.6 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
543 lbs / 246 Kg = 8.1 x 5.1 " / 130 mm shells or 0.3 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.15
Metacentric height 1.5 ft / 0.4 m
Roll period: 12.9 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.59
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.01

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
and transom stern
Block coefficient: 0.388
Length to Beam Ratio: 10.41 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 22.66 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 66 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 69
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 30.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 5.00 ft / 1.52 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
- Forecastle (15 %): 17.00 ft / 5.18 m
- Mid (50 %): 15.00 ft / 4.57 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 15.00 ft / 4.57 m
- Stern: 15.00 ft / 4.57 m
- Average freeboard: 15.83 ft / 4.82 m
Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 186.8 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 102.3 %
Waterplane Area: 9,042 Square feet or 840 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 66 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 39 lbs/sq ft or 189 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.50
- Longitudinal: 1.85
- Overall: 0.57
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform



Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 188.7 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 123.1 %
Waterplane Area: 7,749 Square feet or 720 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 60 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 34 lbs/sq ft or 167 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.50
- Longitudinal: 1.98
- Overall: 0.58
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform


As both designs have a considerable amount of misc. weight, rails for the deployment of mines may be added at the customer's request, instead of the standard anti submarine compliment of 2 DC rails and 4 DC guns.

Whats the difference between the two designs?

Cocked up on the first post, edited to correct.......look again!

Forty 50 ton MTB would be a better investment than a 2000ton DD. They'd have a better net survivability as well.

Cheers,