WesWorld

Given SAEs strategical position, do you think it would be a good idea to have a purpose build minelayer? What should it look like and why?

I´m more interested in an analysis and pros&cons than SS data.

Some small coastal minelayers would probably be a good idea, to lay barriers to protect your own installations in event of war. I'm not sure that the strategic situation really lends itself to larger ocean-going minelayers, though. Whose harbors or approaches would you try to mine? Argentina? Possibly valuable, but in the event of war I expect the RSAN to quickly have control of the seas so it's not really necessary (and will likely be a hazard to navigation after any war is over). The same is true for Brazil.

I think defensive minefields to guard your own ports, and possibly a capacity to close one end of the Mozambique channel (thus forcing foes around or into a net and making a "safer" area).

Offensively, there are a lack of chokepoints such as straits. However, much of the potential opposition, be it Italy/Eritrea, Brazil, or the Argies- have most of their main infrastructure in a couple of ports, which also serve primate cities which are the core of their trade.

So a couple of submarine minelayers- even at a harrassment level, could aggressively lay mines at Massawa or Rio De Janeiro. The Argies are tougher as they have dispersed drydocks, but Comodoro Rividavia has half their repair capabilty.

I agree, submarine minelayers are much much more usefull. You can sneak in undetected lay the mines and leave. That being said, when the escorts start increasing the level of patrols it would prove more parilous.

Chile finds the concept of more minelayers in the region...distressing.

Thanks for your input.

The problem with submarine minelayers is their limited capacity. Sure, they can cause confusion but hardly close a port or lay a defensive minefield to protect coastal shipping lines inside. You need something bigger for that, something with a capacity of 400-1000 mines, methinks.

You seem to have focused on South Africa and South America naturally, but I´d also like to remind you of the Cameroon part of the SAE. What about the situation there?

Browsing through my books I found out most minelayers in various navies had a speed of ~18-24kn - even those meant to run missions into hostile waters. Only the british MANXMAN-class seems to have used high speeds as part of the mission profile. Why? I´d expect minelayers build for offensive minelaying to be speedy in general.... And what kind of vessel would, if any, the RSAN need?

I have the very ship your after. The General San Martin is a fast minelayer/cruiser like the Manxman.

However, I've no idea how to use her. Argentina would certainly lay defensive minefields around her ports using the few smaller craft I have and some conversions (more of later) while offensive operations will be left to San Martin.

I would probably mine the deeper channels of the River Plate estuary but I'm not sure whether she could make a raid and escape during the nightime. It might be too far from my bases. I'd not expect her to have a long life. Indeed many minelayers used in their main role had short lives. They lack enough armour if they need to fight and speed might not be enough to save them. Using older ships converted might only increase this risk.

The RSAN might mine the harbour appoaches (anywhere and not just SA) or deeper channels but defensive mining at home might not be neccesary unless facing a more powerful emeny.

Subs are more stealthy, but of limited use closer inshore and carry less mines. I would say build the subs and get some mines onto older vessels to use them in home waters and lesser threat areas. Don't come to Argentina with slow vessels because they won't live long.

(Hurries off to build more minesweepers )

Quoted

Originally posted by Hood
(Hurries off to build more minesweepers )

LoL.....

You can licence build some of my latest designs, probably the MS35 I just introduced to the board. Feel free to contact your local SAE weapon dealer....


Seriously, mines surely do not play the same role for the SAE as they did for those Baltic or North Sea powers.

Btw, what´s the maximum water depth a minefield could be used in?

How were mines used in the Med during WW1?

Have the navy subsidise a few railway ferries.

You may need to mine Port Stanley one day.

The HSF had lots of sub minelayers cause it got round the problem of cruiser rules in WW1. If a merchant hit a mine, tough luck. The submarine can't be held for breaching the stop and search rules.

The great thing about mines is you don't actually have to have them to be a threat. You just have to be seen putting something in the water.

Cheers,

Quoted

Btw, what´s the maximum water depth a minefield could be used in?

100 fathoms rings a bell. If an anchor chain was longer than 600ft then it's weight would sink the mine. I don't have Campbells Nav weaps handy - that may have something.

Regards,

Quoted

Only the british MANXMAN-class seems to have used high speeds as part of the mission profile. Why? I´d expect minelayers build for offensive minelaying to be speedy in general....

North Sea ops, scoot in and out. The KM used their CL and DD in the same role in 1939-40. Italian CL and DD could also lay mines. The Manxman were just dedicated to the role.

Cheers,

Deepest depth I found in a quick look through the German mine section on navweaps was 328 fathoms (600m).

Submarine minelayers won't close a port for long, but even a brief closure of a few days can be useful if an RSAN operation forces the enemy to cross the mined area in that interval.

Subs will also have a better chance of success in the one surface chokepoint you might mine offensively - the Bab el Mandeb at the south end of the Red Sea (in case of war with Italy). The large shore batteries Italy has built there makes a surface operation very risky.

"Visit your Indian ally's minelaying subs and minelaying surface ships for further information."

Quoted

Originally posted by HoOmAn
You seem to have focused on South Africa and South America naturally, but I´d also like to remind you of the Cameroon part of the SAE. What about the situation there?

I would say that defensive minefields to protect the handful of anchorages from a destructive raid or outright siezure is the primary requirement there, but could be easily accomplished by coastal layers.

I´m still not too font of using submarines as mine layers even thought the RSAN already owns some.

Railway ferries is what was used in WW2 a lot. However, I´m not sure if there are many in the SAE. Which points should they connect? :o/ Across the Durban Strait? Across the River Plate?.....

Sea denial is the RSANs main task against enemy fleets. This should include trapping enemy forces in their ports. Therefore offensive mine operations are very useful but my cruiser and destroyer squadrons may be either too valuable or blocked by other missions. So IMHO there is the need for some surface minelayer....

In worldwar II Sweden usedn several mechant ships as auxilary cruisers and minelayers. I´m thinking about the Drottning Victctoria a trainferry http://www.kommandobryggan.se/sj/victoria.htm

And the Fidra a cargo ship
http://www.kommandobryggan.se/svealast/fidra.htm

These ships where Swedens mielayers until The Älvsnabben a Cargoship conversion was ready in 1944.

Finland also used 4 small vessels as auxilary minelayers
in WW II, Baltic, Frej, Poseidon, Suomi
http://users.tkk.fi/~jaromaa/Navygallery…Oob-winter.htm.

So using merhant shipping as auxilary minelayers is always a good option.

This pic i made is lbased on the Swedish auxilary cruiser, the one in the bottom is configured for minelaying.



I can dig up the SS data if anyone is intrested.

This is the orginal ships
http://www.kommandobryggan.se/svealast/warun.htm

http://www.kommandobryggan.se/svealast/waria.htm

http://www.kommandobryggan.se/svealast/wiros.htm

Sorry that the site i refer to is mostly in swedish, but hjälpkryssare means auxilary cruiser.

As for submarine minelayers sweden built 6 and Finland built 4 France 6 i think but the Rubis of the free French navy was the only one that was really useful.