WesWorld

2 ships building for Argentina. 1 laid down in 1928 named Patagonia. They are enlarged versions of the A2 ACR, carrying 8x305mm/50 guns. The old duple turrets are to be extensively renovated to give an maximum elevation of 30degrees. Refitted to allow use of 452kg Italian shells.

6 triple 152mm/53 turrets give good protection against cruisers and destroyers. 8x100/47 and 37mm guns complete the AA armament.

Armour is adequate against cruiser gunfire.



Patagonia laid down 1928

Displacement:
24,887 t light; 26,088 t standard; 27,586 t normal; 28,785 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
737.60 ft / 721.78 ft x 87.60 ft x 28.54 ft (normal load)
224.82 m / 220.00 m x 26.70 m x 8.70 m

Armament:
8 - 12.01" / 305 mm guns (4x2 guns), 996.49lbs / 452.00kg shells, 1928 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
18 - 5.98" / 152 mm guns (6x3 guns), 110.23lbs / 50.00kg shells, 1928 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on side, all forward
8 - 3.94" / 100 mm guns (4x2 guns), 30.42lbs / 13.80kg shells, 1928 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, all forward
12 - 1.46" / 37.0 mm guns in single mounts, 1.55lbs / 0.70kg shells, 1928 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 10,218 lbs / 4,635 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 110

Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 10.6" / 270 mm 469.16 ft / 143.00 m 11.48 ft / 3.50 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 100 % of normal length

- Torpedo Bulkhead:
1.18" / 30 mm 469.16 ft / 143.00 m 22.97 ft / 7.00 m

- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 10.6" / 270 mm 7.09" / 180 mm 9.84" / 250 mm
2nd: 3.94" / 100 mm 1.97" / 50 mm 2.76" / 70 mm
3rd: 0.79" / 20 mm - -
4th: 0.39" / 10 mm - -

- Armour deck: 25mm forwards, 90mm over machinery, 120mm over magazines, 90mm over steering gear, Conning tower: 2.76" / 70 mm

Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 4 shafts, 116,000 shp / 86,536 Kw = 31.00 kts
Range 10,000nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 2,696 tons

Complement:
1,069 - 1,391

Cost:
£8.911 million / $35.646 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 1,140 tons, 4.1 %
Armour: 8,424 tons, 30.5 %
- Belts: 2,431 tons, 8.8 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 471 tons, 1.7 %
- Armament: 2,405 tons, 8.7 %
- Armour Deck: 3,063 tons, 11.1 %
- Conning Tower: 54 tons, 0.2 %
Machinery: 3,611 tons, 13.1 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 11,662 tons, 42.3 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2,699 tons, 9.8 %
Miscellaneous weights: 50 tons, 0.2 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
41,520 lbs / 18,833 Kg = 48.0 x 12.0 " / 305 mm shells or 5.5 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.05
Metacentric height 4.5 ft / 1.4 m
Roll period: 17.3 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 59 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.91
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.20

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise forward of midbreak
and transom stern
Block coefficient: 0.535
Length to Beam Ratio: 8.24 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 31.01 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 54 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 49
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 20.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 3.28 ft / 1.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 34.45 ft / 10.50 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 27.89 ft / 8.50 m
- Mid (70 %): 27.89 ft / 8.50 m (18.04 ft / 5.50 m aft of break)
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 18.04 ft / 5.50 m
- Stern: 18.04 ft / 5.50 m
- Average freeboard: 25.46 ft / 7.76 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 96.8 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 206.7 %
Waterplane Area: 45,283 Square feet or 4,207 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 111 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 173 lbs/sq ft or 845 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.95
- Longitudinal: 1.54
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent

I'll see what I can come up with to counter that. The Intermediate Battleship might do, though they are a little slower.

*begins imagining possible Brazilian responses*

The hull is a nice-looking design, and she's a good arms/armour/speed compromise, but that superstructure would send the Nelsons screaming in terror...

(Only 50t for two cats and two planes?)

These two ships will bring Argentina to what in terms of Capital Ships and Cruisers?

I'd like confirmation of numbers so that I don't over-react to these two ships if I already have a conclusive lead on the Argentinians. (with previsions to counter Peru and to a far lesser extent the Philippines). Brazil is not a normal counter for Chile, but the Chileans will keep abreast of their developments as well...so that Chile does not fall behind in this arms race.

Known:
2 BC (building)
2 BB
1 old CDBB
2 190mm CL

Status Unknown:
1 PD
2 10" AC
5 old AC
5 old CL

Quoted

Argentine Armada
Known:
2 BC (building)
2 BB
1 old CDBB
2 190mm CL

Status Unknown:
1 PD
5 old AC
5 old CL

Hmmmm,

Chilean Armada

2 BB
2 PD
1 old CDBB (to be retired soon)
1 new CDBB (to be finished soon)
1 old AC
1 new AC
1 CA building
2 CL
3 old CL
2 old PC
1 CL building
1 CLV
1 CVL building

As I expected, Chile is potentially short on Armored Cruisers and Heavy Cruiser compared to Argentina. Also Chile will need to update its battleships soon in order to stay ahead of Argentina, as the old Swiftures will not be able to keep up with the new BCs and the Dreadnoughts are also getting old compared to the Argentinian 1920s era ships.

Using a common hull. (The other variation is to use the older 340 mm cannon from the Dreadnoughts when those go in to be refitted for American 14 inch guns.)

Capitan Oyama

Chilean Battlecruiser laid down 1931

Displacement:
26,971 t light; 28,183 t standard; 29,750 t normal; 30,884 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
733.00 ft / 720.00 ft x 92.00 ft (Bulges 98.00 ft) x 30.00 ft (normal load)
223.42 m / 219.46 m x 28.04 m (Bulges 29.87 m) x 9.14 m

Armament:
6 - 14.00" / 356 mm guns (3x2 guns), 1,372.00lbs / 622.33kg shells, 1931 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, majority forward, 1 raised mount - superfiring
12 - 4.33" / 110 mm guns (6x2 guns), 40.61lbs / 18.42kg shells, 1931 Model
Dual purpose guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, all amidships, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
24 - 1.46" / 37.0 mm guns (12x2 guns), 1.55lbs / 0.70kg shells, 1931 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, 6 raised mounts
Weight of broadside 8,757 lbs / 3,972 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 125

Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 11.5" / 292 mm 420.00 ft / 128.02 m 10.00 ft / 3.05 m
Ends: 5.50" / 140 mm 300.00 ft / 91.44 m 10.00 ft / 3.05 m
Upper: 5.50" / 140 mm 420.00 ft / 128.02 m 10.00 ft / 3.05 m
Main Belt covers 90 % of normal length

- Torpedo Bulkhead and Bulges:
1.13" / 29 mm 420.00 ft / 128.02 m 20.00 ft / 6.10 m

- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 11.5" / 292 mm 9.00" / 229 mm 9.00" / 229 mm
2nd: 5.50" / 140 mm 4.13" / 105 mm 3.00" / 76 mm
3rd: 0.25" / 6 mm - -

- Armour deck: 4.13" / 105 mm, Conning tower: 11.50" / 292 mm

Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 3 shafts, 125,000 shp / 93,250 Kw = 31.38 kts
Range 6,500nm at 15.00 kts (Bunkerage = 2,820 tons)

Complement:
1,132 - 1,472

Cost:
£10.415 million / $41.659 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 1,095 tons, 3.7 %
Armour: 9,843 tons, 33.1 %
- Belts: 3,713 tons, 12.5 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 350 tons, 1.2 %
- Armament: 2,065 tons, 6.9 %
- Armour Deck: 3,476 tons, 11.7 %
- Conning Tower: 239 tons, 0.8 %
Machinery: 3,738 tons, 12.6 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 12,220 tons, 41.1 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2,779 tons, 9.3 %
Miscellaneous weights: 75 tons, 0.3 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
35,952 lbs / 16,307 Kg = 26.2 x 14.0 " / 356 mm shells or 4.8 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.03
Metacentric height 5.2 ft / 1.6 m
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.60
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.20

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise forward of midbreak
and transom stern
Block coefficient: 0.492
Length to Beam Ratio: 7.35 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 31.45 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 55 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 58
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 20.37 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 35.00 ft / 10.67 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 30.00 ft / 9.14 m
- Mid (50 %): 30.00 ft / 9.14 m (22.00 ft / 6.71 m aft of break)
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 22.00 ft / 6.71 m
- Stern: 22.00 ft / 6.71 m
- Average freeboard: 26.40 ft / 8.05 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 89.1 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 196.9 %
Waterplane Area: 45,552 Square feet or 4,232 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 114 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 177 lbs/sq ft or 862 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.94
- Longitudinal: 1.66
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

One must remember that while Chile and Brazil are not in an arms race, they are both in a race with Argentina, so if Brazil reacts to Argentina, and Argentina reacts to Brazil, then Chile needs to react to Argentina, and by extension, Brazil. Result: Very Happy Shipyard Owners in Europe and America!

Quoted

Result: Very Happy Shipyard Owners in Europe and America!

Yes go on! Waste... I mean spend yer money on beautiful ships in Europe and North America!!
:-)

How is it waste?

Quoted

How is it waste?

Because the enemy will come with a better ship and sink ours. :-)

That's an interesting design; I'd drop the upper belt and thicken the main belt instead. I'd also consider doing the same with the end belts, but those do have potential for protecting flotation against splinters and DD weapons.

BTW, in listing the Argentine ships I forgot about the two 'PDBCs' which are in the "status?" category. Remember also that the 2 BBs are not the Rivadavias but the later "home-built" ships...

The Argentine Fleet comprises the following;

2 Battlecruisers (building)
1 Battleship (Nevada-type)
2 Heavy Cruisers

Those are the only modern ships, of which the Battleship probably needs a refit by now anyway.

Why doesn't Oyama have 10" guns anymore?

Quoted

Why doesn't Oyama have 10" guns anymore?

Obvious design change decision after the appearance of the Argentinean battlecruiser design.
:-)

Quoted

Originally posted by Red Admiral
The Argentine Fleet comprises the following;

2 Battlecruisers (building)
1 Battleship (Nevada-type)
2 Heavy Cruisers

According to Hooman, there's two battleships...

thread

Quoted

...The important project following the South Georgian War was the completion of the two battleships - the one was commissioned January 1923, and the second March following year - and repairs of surviving tonnage."

Those two are disguised as islands somewhere along the southern end of the coastline of Argentinia. It's easily to miss them.
... same goes for those six big 'islands' in Edo bay.
:-)

I guess there are two then. That brings the "modern" ships up to 2 BC, 2 BB, 2 CA and a handful of destroyers.

I'd be fairly sure all the older ships have been run into the ground or sunk during the war. I.e. its not economical to repair them.

Actually I was playing with Oyama's hull to see how many larger guns could be fit on it instead of 9 - 12 ten inch guns.

If I leave the 110 mm guns as twin deck mounts then I can get more out of the ship then I am with the above configuration. The upper armor was added for extra protection, but could be removed. The main and ends were the important part. The ends might need to be thinned so that cruiser shells won't exploded in those sections, but destroyer shells will bounce off. Eh, 5.5 inches should do that just fun at most ranges. If a cruiser is that close, then the armor will be as tissue paper. However if a cruiser gets that close, this ship will have bigger problems, like training the main guns for point blank range with High Explosive to make said cruiser burn.

It still remains to be seen if the 10 inch guns Oyamas get built of the larger battlecruiser get built. It will all depend on if a 10 inch 50 calibler shell can penetrate the armor of these new Argentine Battlecruisers.

Of course there is one other weapons option that I've been reluctant to use....the 12 inch 55 caliber weapons that would go on the Filipino style CDBB that they leased Chile the plans to in 1925.

Why reluctant to use it?

Quoted

like training the main guns for point blank range with High Explosive to make said cruiser burn.

There was a discussion over here about the possible merits of using HEP/HESH as an anti-ship weapon...
unfortunatly they're not availble until the 1940s...

As for the 10"/50, I ran a quick BigGun check using a 530lb shell; that will penetrate the belt inside of ~13500 yards and the deck outside of ~27000 yards.