WesWorld

I've been toying around with what to build in 1933-34 and among the candidates is fitting in a couple CDS.

The ships would likely be deployed in pairs and are intended to fill several roles. Expected deployment areas would be the inner islands of the DEI, or Kongo or Dutch Guiana, and possibly be pressed into heavy escort service. This would free faster heavy cruisers and capital ships from some roles. The vessels are designed to beat any heavy cruiser, and be dangerous to some of the armored cruisers / BCs running around. As they are not expected to have heavy escort allotments, a reversion to casements is seen as a cheap means of additional close-in & night time firepower and a secondarily a bombardment weapon.

The design is based on an expansion of the 1917 Sverige class of 6,852 tons, with the 125mm taking the place of the 6" mounts, and an expanded beam equivalent to a panzerschiff's to support the triple 11" vs. Sverige's twins.

Armor :
Upper and end armor is merely designed to stop HE rounds
Belt armor is +1m above WL to -2m below WL, Upper belt is between +1m and average freeboard of 4.12m.

The casement armor is 50mm faces with 25mm dividers to limit collateral damage from battery hits.

85.2mm Deck armor comes to top of belt. Deck is 100mm over vitals and 30mm over ends.

21mm "Other" armor on 40mm mounts is to add a ton/mount for Hazemeyer stablization gear.

1933 Maastricht, Netherlands Coast Defence Ship laid down 1933

Displacement:
7,641 t light; 8,352 t standard; 9,286 t normal; 10,033 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
400.26 ft / 393.70 ft x 70.87 ft x 22.15 ft (normal load)
122.00 m / 120.00 m x 21.60 m x 6.75 m

Armament:
6 - 11.02" / 280 mm guns (2x3 guns), 793.66lbs / 360.00kg shells, 1919 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, evenly spread
8 - 5.98" / 152 mm guns in single mounts, 110.23lbs / 50.00kg shells, 1926 Model
Breech loading guns in casemate mounts
on side ends, evenly spread
8 guns in hull casemates - Limited use in all but light seas
4 - 4.92" / 125 mm guns (2x2 guns), 59.52lbs / 27.00kg shells, 1928 Model
Dual purpose guns in deck mounts with hoists
on centreline ends, evenly spread, all raised mounts
8 - 4.92" / 125 mm guns (4x2 guns), 59.52lbs / 27.00kg shells, 1928 Model
Dual purpose guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, all amidships
32 - 1.57" / 40.0 mm guns (8x4 guns), 1.94lbs / 0.88kg shells, 1928 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts
on side ends, evenly spread, 4 raised mounts - superfiring
Weight of broadside 6,420 lbs / 2,912 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 140

Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 7.09" / 180 mm 255.91 ft / 78.00 m 9.84 ft / 3.00 m
Ends: 1.18" / 30 mm 137.76 ft / 41.99 m 9.84 ft / 3.00 m
Upper: 1.18" / 30 mm 255.91 ft / 78.00 m 10.24 ft / 3.12 m
Main Belt covers 100 % of normal length

- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 7.87" / 200 mm 3.94" / 100 mm 5.91" / 150 mm
2nd: 1.97" / 50 mm - 0.98" / 25 mm
3rd: 1.18" / 30 mm 0.79" / 20 mm 0.98" / 25 mm
4th: 1.18" / 30 mm 0.79" / 20 mm 0.98" / 25 mm
5th: 0.39" / 10 mm 0.83" / 21 mm -

- Armour deck: 3.35" / 85 mm, Conning tower: 7.09" / 180 mm

Machinery:
Diesel Internal combustion generators,
Electric motors, 2 shafts, 9,024 shp / 6,732 Kw = 18.00 kts
Range 8,500nm at 15.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 1,681 tons

Complement:
472 - 614

Cost:
£4.245 million / $16.978 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 707 tons, 7.6 %
Armour: 2,816 tons, 30.3 %
- Belts: 984 tons, 10.6 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 535 tons, 5.8 %
- Armour Deck: 1,229 tons, 13.2 %
- Conning Tower: 67 tons, 0.7 %
Machinery: 263 tons, 2.8 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 3,756 tons, 40.4 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,644 tons, 17.7 %
Miscellaneous weights: 100 tons, 1.1 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
12,552 lbs / 5,694 Kg = 18.7 x 11.0 " / 280 mm shells or 2.4 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.19
Metacentric height 4.1 ft / 1.2 m
Roll period: 14.7 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 77 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.62
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.55

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has raised forecastle
and transom stern
Block coefficient: 0.526
Length to Beam Ratio: 5.56 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 23.78 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 45 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): -20.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 6.56 ft / 2.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 21.82 ft / 6.65 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 16.99 ft / 5.18 m (12.17 ft / 3.71 m aft of break)
- Mid (50 %): 12.17 ft / 3.71 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 12.17 ft / 3.71 m
- Stern: 12.17 ft / 3.71 m
- Average freeboard: 13.52 ft / 4.12 m
Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 70.1 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 97.3 %
Waterplane Area: 19,811 Square feet or 1,841 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 102 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 140 lbs/sq ft or 685 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.91
- Longitudinal: 2.40
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Excellent seaboat, comfortable, can fire her guns in the heaviest weather

Shells
50 AP
40 SAP
40 HE
10 practice

Misc :
10 tons for extra director and CIC
50 tons for seaplane & catapult on fantail

6 tons 'creep' 40hp motors arranged as fore/aft thrusters, and two stern motors.
34 tons misc

So you build something that is heavier armed and armored on a displacement half that of a Panzerschiff. Not bad. Well, your ships 8kn slower......

Seriously, to build such a CDS with its top speed of 18kn with a transome stern is ridiculous. IMHO that´s just power gaming with SpringSharp.

Sometimes I really wish Ian would have never introduced transomes in SS. Ian? Do you hear me?!

You'll have problems fitting all those hulls onto that hull.

You might be better off with an updated Sverige retaining 4x280mm.

I'm not sure the casemates are a good move. Granted they save weight over turrets but they need careful placing to cover all the arcs. Also limited elevation and washout in heavy seas might be a problem.

I notice you still have a heavy DP battery. Why not dispense with the casemates and stick with the DP armament?

I like the use of DE machinery.

I agree with Hood, I don't think you need the casemates along with the 125mm battery, especially not with only 4 6" guns per broadside. The ship deck seems horrendously short and cramped, with all those turrets (two quite large) on a length of only 120 m.

upper deck casemates on CDs and Escort cruisers. It can give better arcs, and they're usable in heavy seas.

Quoted

Originally posted by HoOmAn
So you build something that is heavier armed and armored on a displacement half that of a Panzerschiff. Not bad. Well, your ships 8kn slower......

Seriously, to build such a CDS with its top speed of 18kn with a transome stern is ridiculous. IMHO that´s just power gaming with SpringSharp.

Sometimes I really wish Ian would have never introduced transomes in SS. Ian? Do you hear me?!

I used the transom because it was there and I pretty much check it by habit. Overall, it makes little difference, unchecking the box places the ship at 0.99 comp hull. This can be "fixed" by dropping the miscellaneous weight from 100 to 66 tons.

On length- mimicking the Sverige's layout on the same hull length should be doable. She's also 4 knots slower than the Sverige with 10 years more advanced machinery and a bigger beam and slightly deeper draft. Which is why I thought things would fit.

Diesel electric - I've used this on a number of designs meant for deployment to secondary locations. The DE drive gives better self maneuverability, meaning lesser reliance on tugs. Also why I added the creep motors.

Armament - I'm not sure on the casements. They work out to 4/side, which may well not be worth bothering with. They also "take" +0.08 comp hull. I don't think they can fit above deck, that's already fairly crammed. Which means I could put the extra into armor or speed. Speed...I'll never catch anything anyhow. So I'd probably sink it into improving the belt/turret armor by 30mm. Or I could fit a TDS...but then people would point to the insufficient beam.

As for the triple 280mm vs twin 280mm, just copying the Svergie/Groningen was considered. However, by boosting the vessel's size I can accommodate the triples, which make the vessel far more formidable.

So...
For the simple no-casement, no transom version- take the first posted, delete those and boost belt to 210, turret face to 230, barbette to 180, and con to 210. Which would certainly make her fairly cruiser-proof.

Trying the twin instead of triple....well here's a version with just twin 280mm and no casement guns. Armor has been significantly boosted as a result. 'Wet forward' was fixed by adding 0.01m to stem.

1933 Maastricht, Netherlands Coast Defense Ship laid down 1933

Displacement:
7,736 t light; 8,243 t standard; 9,286 t normal; 10,119 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
400.26 ft / 393.70 ft x 70.87 ft x 22.15 ft (normal load)
122.00 m / 120.00 m x 21.60 m x 6.75 m

Armament:
4 - 11.02" / 280 mm guns (2x2 guns), 793.66lbs / 360.00kg shells, 1919 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, evenly spread
4 - 4.92" / 125 mm guns (2x2 guns), 59.52lbs / 27.00kg shells, 1928 Model
Dual purpose guns in deck mounts with hoists
on centreline ends, evenly spread, all raised mounts
8 - 4.92" / 125 mm guns (4x2 guns), 59.52lbs / 27.00kg shells, 1928 Model
Dual purpose guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, all amidships
32 - 1.57" / 40.0 mm guns (8x4 guns), 1.94lbs / 0.88kg shells, 1928 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts
on side ends, evenly spread, 4 raised mounts - superfiring
Weight of broadside 3,951 lbs / 1,792 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 140

Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 12.8" / 325 mm 255.91 ft / 78.00 m 9.84 ft / 3.00 m
Ends: 1.18" / 30 mm 137.76 ft / 41.99 m 9.84 ft / 3.00 m
Upper: 1.18" / 30 mm 255.91 ft / 78.00 m 10.24 ft / 3.12 m
Main Belt covers 100 % of normal length

- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 13.8" / 350 mm 5.91" / 150 mm 11.8" / 300 mm
3rd: 1.18" / 30 mm 0.79" / 20 mm 0.98" / 25 mm
4th: 1.18" / 30 mm 0.79" / 20 mm 0.98" / 25 mm
5th: 0.39" / 10 mm 0.83" / 21 mm -

- Armour deck: 3.35" / 85 mm, Conning tower: 12.01" / 305 mm

Machinery:
Diesel Internal combustion generators,
Electric motors, 2 shafts, 10,467 shp / 7,808 Kw = 18.00 kts
Range 8,500nm at 15.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 1,876 tons

Complement:
472 - 614

Cost:
£3.198 million / $12.791 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 432 tons, 4.7 %
Armour: 3,580 tons, 38.6 %
- Belts: 1,619 tons, 17.4 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 666 tons, 7.2 %
- Armour Deck: 1,182 tons, 12.7 %
- Conning Tower: 114 tons, 1.2 %
Machinery: 305 tons, 3.3 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 3,319 tons, 35.7 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,550 tons, 16.7 %
Miscellaneous weights: 100 tons, 1.1 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
17,348 lbs / 7,869 Kg = 25.9 x 11.0 " / 280 mm shells or 3.6 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.15
Metacentric height 3.9 ft / 1.2 m
Roll period: 15.1 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 79 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.44
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.58

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has raised forecastle
Block coefficient: 0.526
Length to Beam Ratio: 5.56 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 19.84 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 45 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): -20.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 6.56 ft / 2.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 21.85 ft / 6.66 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 16.99 ft / 5.18 m (12.17 ft / 3.71 m aft of break)
- Mid (50 %): 12.17 ft / 3.71 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 12.17 ft / 3.71 m
- Stern: 12.17 ft / 3.71 m
- Average freeboard: 13.52 ft / 4.12 m


Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 49.1 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 93.5 %
Waterplane Area: 19,040 Square feet or 1,769 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 120 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 126 lbs/sq ft or 613 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.92
- Longitudinal: 2.19
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Excellent seaboat, comfortable, can fire her guns in the heaviest weather

One of the reasons I put DE in a number of Filipino auxiliaries was because, in the event of a disaster, you can tie up at dockside and run cables ashore to supply electricity.

Good point Swamphen. I believe the Saratoga did that for Portland once. Amazing amount of power in big ships

Anyhow, I took another look at what I could do by cutting out those casement guns, this time I put most of the savings into making the vessel nearly treaty compliant- which ate up most of them.

I also trimmed the AA a little. The Sverige had, in addition to the main and secondary, 6x75mm, 2x57mm, and 2 MGs. So I've reduced the outfit to 6 stacked quad 40s, and 4 twin 20s


1933 Maastricht, Netherlands Coast Defence Ship laid down 1933

Displacement:
7,379 t light; 8,003 t standard; 9,028 t normal; 9,847 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
400.26 ft / 393.70 ft x 70.87 ft x 21.65 ft (normal load)
122.00 m / 120.00 m x 21.60 m x 6.60 m

Armament:
6 - 11.02" / 280 mm guns (2x3 guns), 793.66lbs / 360.00kg shells, 1919 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, evenly spread
4 - 4.92" / 125 mm guns (2x2 guns), 59.52lbs / 27.00kg shells, 1926 Model
Dual purpose guns in deck mounts with hoists
on centreline ends, evenly spread, all raised mounts
8 - 4.92" / 125 mm guns (4x2 guns), 59.59lbs / 27.03kg shells, 1926 Model
Dual purpose guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, evenly spread
24 - 1.57" / 40.0 mm guns (6x4 guns), 1.94lbs / 0.88kg shells, 1928 Model
Dual purpose guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
8 - 0.79" / 20.0 mm guns (4x2 guns), 0.24lbs / 0.11kg shells, 1928 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts
on side ends, evenly spread, all raised mounts - superfiring
Weight of broadside 5,525 lbs / 2,506 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 140

Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 7.09" / 180 mm 255.91 ft / 78.00 m 9.84 ft / 3.00 m
Ends: 1.18" / 30 mm 137.76 ft / 41.99 m 9.84 ft / 3.00 m
Upper: 1.18" / 30 mm 255.91 ft / 78.00 m 10.17 ft / 3.10 m
Main Belt covers 100 % of normal length

- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 8.27" / 210 mm 3.94" / 100 mm 6.50" / 165 mm
2nd: 1.18" / 30 mm 0.79" / 20 mm 0.98" / 25 mm
3rd: 1.18" / 30 mm 0.79" / 20 mm 0.98" / 25 mm
4th: 0.39" / 10 mm 0.83" / 21 mm -
5th: 0.39" / 10 mm - -

- Armour deck: 3.35" / 85 mm, Conning tower: 7.09" / 180 mm

Machinery:
Diesel Internal combustion generators,
Electric motors, 2 shafts, 10,285 shp / 7,673 Kw = 18.00 kts
Range 8,500nm at 15.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 1,844 tons

Complement:
462 - 601

Cost:
£3.793 million / $15.173 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 598 tons, 6.6 %
Armour: 2,728 tons, 30.2 %
- Belts: 983 tons, 10.9 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 501 tons, 5.6 %
- Armour Deck: 1,178 tons, 13.1 %
- Conning Tower: 66 tons, 0.7 %
Machinery: 300 tons, 3.3 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 3,653 tons, 40.5 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,648 tons, 18.3 %
Miscellaneous weights: 100 tons, 1.1 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
13,105 lbs / 5,944 Kg = 19.6 x 11.0 " / 280 mm shells or 2.6 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.17
Metacentric height 4.0 ft / 1.2 m
Roll period: 14.9 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 78 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.60
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.55

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has raised forecastle
Block coefficient: 0.523
Length to Beam Ratio: 5.56 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 19.84 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 45 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): -20.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 6.56 ft / 2.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 21.85 ft / 6.66 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 16.99 ft / 5.18 m (12.14 ft / 3.70 m aft of break)
- Mid (50 %): 12.14 ft / 3.70 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 12.14 ft / 3.70 m
- Stern: 12.14 ft / 3.70 m
- Average freeboard: 13.50 ft / 4.11 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 64.2 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 95.0 %
Waterplane Area: 18,987 Square feet or 1,764 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 110 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 139 lbs/sq ft or 681 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.91
- Longitudinal: 2.33
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Excellent seaboat, comfortable, can fire her guns in the heaviest weather

It was Tacoma where Lexington was used as a temporary power plant in 1929-30 due to a severe drought which left the normal hydroelectric grid short of power and the economy in the NW near collapse.

Several DDE's were converted to floating power stations as well, having a generator and cable reels placed between the funnel and aft 40mm tub.

Donnell had her stern messed up so bad she wound up being one of those convertions.