WesWorld

Now that we are discussing the Chinese military I feel we could discuss an unknown; the South African Army.

By the year 1935 the territories that formed the Empire have a population according to my calculations of 31 million + (divided in 25+ in Africa and 6+ in America). My questions are: Where they moved away from our history? How they defeated the Xhosa, the Zulu? Or they absorbed them into their nation peacefully? IIRC Itheko come up with an explanation of how they got their American territories (late 19th century IIRC). Is that consider canon? With that population and maybe a little push (40 million perhaps thanks to emigration and better treatment of the population) they can be compared with France or Germany in population but with the problem of low density per mile. How they would have organized their forces? A small muslim minority existed in Cape and with the conquest of Dar ar Salaam and Madagascar more muslims are subjects of the Empire. How they were treated? Madagascar at the time was second only to South Africa in the number of people in the area. More questions as they come along.

STOP !!! We should not lose ourselves here into endless discussions. My intention lay only in it,
to have a more or less realistic starting situation for my possible assumption of China. It makes
no sense to discuss here now each army.

Quoted

Originally posted by parador
STOP !!! We should not lose ourselves here into endless discussions. My intention lay only in it,
to have a more or less realistic starting situation for my possible assumption of China. It makes
no sense to discuss here now each army.

My idea is to understand how the South African Army works. They will go possibly to war and their Army is a complete mystery. And why not discuss each army? Is better than to create completely irrational or impossible orders of battle.

Why create an OOB at all?

To script a conflict you simply don´t need it. Just a few names, some equipement listed and that´s it. Everything else the author is responsible for.

I´ve neither interest to create a realistic (in Ww terms) OOB for the RSAA nor for the RSAF.

However, some background information regarding how an army or airforce is organized should be laid out. Example: The RSAF will most likely use flights of three planes, nine making a squadron, 30+ a wing etc.

So feel free to work in that direction if you want. I appreciate any input, especially regarding useful designations.

(And may I remind you of the "How to honor bravery?"-thread? Dispite gathering good ideas all this has not yet been put togehter to make a real picture. That´s probably more important than any kind of work on OOBs....

So how we understand the army and come up with names you need a history of that force. The historical events, the heroes, the units, the ranks, etc. Integrating the Zulu, akin the Sikh, could make for a very interesting force. Also could make for a very diverse racial makeup in your force. Cavalry, Navy and commando operations basically white while the ground pounders basically was formed by colored troops.

Trying to make sense of a history for South Africa would create a very nasty nation according to our standards. Rich first thru the slave trade and later thru gold and diamonds, the race issue will be very important and we could see some strained relationships with the non-martial races of the Empire.

Also I doubt India would have allowed the forced immigration of a large group of their population like it happened IOTL so maybe another large group was used instead for labor, like Chinese or Burmese.

So an Emperor or King early in their history due to some strange event. Larger European emigration maybe by some natural disaster perhaps, Creation of a fleet first to fight piracy and later to fight British interference with the slave trade. Conquest of Madagascar early in their history to defeat piracy. During the 1600's and early 1700's conquest of Mozambique and Dar Er Salaam to eliminate competition in slave trade. Creation of some minor nobility of Islamic origin to eliminate resistance in Madagascar and the African east coast to South African control. Use of some tribes, like the Zulus, as sepoys to start conquest of the interior.

There was a period where India was somewhat in thrall to Britain, which maintained control of Pakistan afterward anyway. Thus there may have been a forced Indian diaspora of sorts - I'd been working with RLBH on something related to that at one point.

Look long enough and you'll see that India once squashed pirates at Madagascar...

Quoted

Originally posted by The Rock Doctor
There was a period where India was somewhat in thrall to Britain, which maintained control of Pakistan afterward anyway. Thus there may have been a forced Indian diaspora of sorts - I'd been working with RLBH on something related to that at one point.

Look long enough and you'll see that India once squashed pirates at Madagascar...

But I doubt an independent India would have looked kindly into mistreatment of former subjects, especially if it happened in the 19th century like IOTL. Maybe better treated but still large part used for labor.

Still eliminating the pirate nest of Madagascar could make for very early cooperation between a budding African Empire and India. Plus maybe South Africa rented and later employed Indian mercenaries for their conquests, creating a military class.

IMO the African Empire is very similar to OTL 1930's South Africa except by their relationship with what they consider colored classes. The very large Malagasy, Cape Malay, South Americans, now a possible martial Indian minority and small Islamic ruling class citizens receiving rights close to the whites or even being considered white for all legal purposes.

Quoted

But I doubt an independent India would have looked kindly into mistreatment of former subjects, especially if it happened in the 19th century like IOTL. Maybe better treated but still large part used for labor.

Agreed; but lack of active British participation in the sim for long periods of time precluded me from pursuing this point much.

I expect the Madagascar op, in the early 1700s, took place before there was a South African state to cooperate with.

As for the rest, that'd be up to Hooman, who doesn't seem overly interested in the topic just now.

Having a large Indian and African NCO and soldier class could give unique names to units, ranks and organizations. For example Impis could be used as a designation for a infantry task force borrowing the Zulu word for their military units.

Hooman asked for background and the history of a nation help forge that nation's armed forces organizations and traditions.

Quoted

Originally posted by perdedor99
Trying to make sense of a history for South Africa would create a very nasty nation according to our standards. [...] Creation of some minor nobility of Islamic origin to eliminate resistance in Madagascar and the African east coast to South African control. Use of some tribes, like the Zulus, as sepoys to start conquest of the interior.

Doesn´t sound too bad and the slavery/tribe thing adds a new perspective. All drafts done in the past focused on the European thatre more or less. I´ll add what I discussed and laid out below. Several players and non-players or nomore-players helped with that.

Here´s a draft of a general timeline but other things need to be added. I know there are inconsistencies.

1630s - Dutch came to control the area around the River Plate and several areas of what is now Brazil and Argentina. (or perhaps just Uruguay and southern Brazil along with historical New Holland, and allowing for the Argentinean part to be taken in war.)

1650s- Dutch forces from around Guararapes (New Holland) relocate to the River Plate region and reenforce the area. Added to this they help with the establishment of Cape Colony.

1700s - Despite Spanish and Portuguese efforts, the Dutch Colony of the Plate holds and prospers with heavy trade with the Cape Colony and into Asia.

1795 - France takes the Seven Providences of the Neatherlands.

1798 - the former Dutch colonies declare independance from their motherland (which is held by the French anyway)

1799 - the SAE is a kingdom of two equal states, the Plate and South Africa. Dual administrative capitals are established at Montevideo and Cape Town. The royal court moves between the two cities on a rotating schedule every few years.

1810 - 1830 - As the Spanish/Portuguese/Iberian colonies begin to consider independence, the kingdom supports those movements. This may be out of a heartfelt desire to liberate their neighbours from an imperialist, or it may be a pragmatic recognition that several small neighbours can be easier to handle than one big neighbour.

1830 - the historic French upheavals see the House of Bourbon try to distract the masses from internal issues with some foreign victories. One happens to include a fight picked with the young "Kingdom of the Plate and South Africa". An incident takes place, and the French attack. Raids take place along the African coast. The royal family, whose court is in Cape Town, flee inland, setting up shop at Pretoria, which is out of reach of the French.

1831 - Nordmark gets involved. If we assume the former Marshal Bernadotte is king as he historically was of Sweden, maybe it's out of personal spite. Alternately, it's a result of an alliance of marriage with the proto-SAE. Nordmark sends reinforcements, a few battles are fought at sea, and the French eventually concede defeat. The Bourbons manage to retain power a bit longer as a result of their adventuring, but are replaced by the House of Orleans anyway in 1833.

-->Side Effect: Perhaps France is unable to historically intervene in the Belgian Revolution, allowing the Dutch to defeat it and keep Belgium. Not sure we ever had that explained or not.

-->Side Effect: Could lead to the resurgence of Nordmark as a naval power.

1835 - After the war, the royals decide to stay put in Pretoria, keeping Cape Town and Montevideo as administrative centres. Meanwhile, the RSAN is started.

1840s-1870s - various shifts in power and alliances between the South American powers and the Cape Colony.

1879 - War of the Pacific between Chile-Bolivia-Peru.

~1880 - diamond and gold mining have put the South African portion of the kingdom far ahead of the Plate portion; the two administrative capitals are abolished and the functions moved to Pretoria. The "Kingdom of the Plate and South Africa" becomes the "South Africa Empire".

~1880 - There is no conflict between Argentina/Brazil and the SAE, but the relationships cool as Argentina and Brazil begin to take issue with the SAE going from "liberator" to "colonizer". The concentration of political power in South Africa furthers this schism. Tensions in the early 1880s are sufficient to keep Argentina from working with Chile on Patagonian issues.

1884 - SAE begins to industrialize to maintain its African Empire from opportunistic British and German forces and to build up the RSAN as a first class navy with modern equipment.

1890s - South Africa participates in colonial adventures, clashing with France in particular (as revenge?). This fuels expansion of the empire into places like Gabon, Madagascar, and so on. There is an undeclared, low intensity conflict with some significant battles, but diplomatic pressures on both nations keeps a full-blown war from happening.

1900 to 1916 - stabilization of the Empire´s borders and a relatively quite period before WW1 breaks out and the SAE gets involved in 1916. The SAE takes former German colonies (instead of the British historically).

>1919 - history as written in WesWorld


Other details discussed and agreeed earlier during the SIM.

On Nordmark

I have decided that Gustav V, present king of Nordmark, is born several decades later than Gustav V, king of Sweden, historically was. He is therefore born, in WesWorld, in 1881, was married in 1906 to HR&IH Princess Victoria of the South African Empire, and ascended the throne in 1907. They still have no children (there was a still-birth in 1914).

Princess Victoria was born in 1887.

Present King-Emperor of the SAE is King William I., born 1865. He ascended the throne in 1897 when his father King Hendrik I. died.

Hendrik (born 1833, later first King of the SAE) married Nordmarks Countess Kristina Amalie in 1863.

Late in 1869 the war against the British began by proclaiming the foundation of the Kingdom of South Africa by some seperatists. Several other groups followed and in early 1872 the SAE was established.

It needs to be that early (too early?) because otherwise I wont have enough time to build up an empire, though, during the so called Colony Wars (see history about the Battle of Corsico Bay for example). It took three decades (until ~1903) to secure all the territories the SAE owns today against the British, French, Spanish and also Germans.

The date 1869 was inspired by the inccidents in Germany because they make it impossible for the French to focus on their african territories and leaves Britain alone on that continent to defend their interests.

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Reasons behind a special relationship:
When the South-African Empire in 18?? made a bid for independence, war loomed, as the British Empire was not about to agree to loose this piece of real-estate. In an unexpected move, however, Nordmark (along wiht other nations?) leaned heavily on Britain, managing to bring USA in on its side in the matter, and caused Britain to renege its claims in Southern Africa. As a result, a special relationship form between the two nations, sometimes called the unofficial Pole-to-Pole alliance. It was only reinforced by the first South-African head of state marrying HG Countess Kristina Amalie af Blekinge to make her the first South-African Queen Consort. It was then, perhaps, not unnatural that in turn HRH Prince Gustav in 1906 wed HI&RH Princess Victoria, daughter of the King-Emperor of South Africa. The relationship between the two countries continued to improve over the years, particularly in the world war, when two South African cruiser-squadrons provided invaluable aid in protecting the trade-lanes of an increasingly overstretched Kingdom of Nordmark, the 1915 actions of two light cruisers against two German armoured cruisers standing out in naval history.

History of the SAE and Nordmark so far:

1863 - Hendrik (born 1833) marries Countess Kristina Amalie (born 1845)

1865 - William, first son of Hendrik, is born

1868 - second son of Hendrik, Lukas (later acting minister of Traffic and Transport, is born

1869 - separatists of the Free South Africa - Movement start to fight the British

1871 - Hendrik I. gets his first daughter, Eva Christina

1872 - foundation of the SAE after Nordmark helped, Hendrik I. becomes first King of the SAE at an age of 39

1877 - third son for Hendrik, named Olaf

~1882 - Colony in Uruguay (historical boundaries) established

1886 - William (21 years old) marries a yet unknown princess Anna-Sophie (18)

1887 - Victoria, daughter of William (22) is born

~1892 - Cease fire in South America, boundaries fixed as on Wes´ map

1897 - Hendrik I. dies at an age of 64 and William ascends the throne as King William I. at an age of 32

1903 - the SAE could end the Colony Wars and looks much like in 1920 - with the exception of minor territories it got from the Germans after WW1

1906 - Prince Gustav marries Princess Victoria (19)

1907 - Prince Gustav is Nordmarks new King Gustav V.

1914 - still-birth of a heir to the throne in Nordmark

1921 - death of Gustav, Victoria (34) and their unborn child (William is 56 years old, Lukas 53)

Quoted

Originally posted by perdedor99

Also I doubt India would have allowed the forced immigration of a large group of their population like it happened IOTL so maybe another large group was used instead for labor, like Chinese or Burmese.

In real life, the Dutch imported people from their East Indies to Dutch Guiana, where they form most of the Population. Considering that Java has had issues with sufficient food production in the past, one semi-historical aspect would be to have there be immigration from there instead of India, creating a similar racial mixture. Alternately, Sri Lanka was Dutch for some time.

As for the suggested timeline, works from my perspective.
As I recall-(Roo can correct)
At the 1795 timeline the Dutch were the Batavian Republic (House of Orange was not in power) and joined the French. Post 1815, the Netherlands was reformed and DEI restored, in part due to Russian insistance, as part of the counterbalances to France.

The 1830 time is also about when Belgium revolted against William III, but the early Dutch victory was negated by the arrival of a French Army- their being active against SAE at the same time works, and explains why the Dutch were too busy to help or reclaim their recent territories.

For my part, I had Leopold I of Belgium claim and ruthlessely exploit the Kongo until forced to leave- as historical, in 1905-6 or so. Germanic refugees both from East Afrika and Silesia/Pomerinia settled eastern Kongo (lost it's population under Leopold) and interior of Dutch Guiana.

The problems I see are minor. In the Plate it seems OK except to explain the hate of the Brazilians and Argentines. The only reason I can found is a recent war like in the late 1880's. Also if Uruguay was colonized in the 1600's them Montevideo should have a Dutch sounding name due to being formally created as a city in 1724.

In regard to Africa the pirates in Madagascar should force a budding colony to create a fleet of sorts early in their history to defend their trade and could force an invasion of Madagascar in the 18th century. You don't have the population base to defeat Madagascar without a long war alone in the 19th century. Better to have done that early in the history and allow for their large population base to be loyal to the Empire. Same with coastal Mozambique and Zanzibar. That way the Kingdom then will control a large part of the slave trade and should get rich with it. Start your expansion earlier than 1798.

The non-Dutch names could easily be a legacy of occupation following some war with Iberia. Hoo's said he does not want to rename things, so we work a reason in

As for the African territories, I'm in favor of only re-writing more recent history, since it's easier to remember. For example, the German-India connection makes more sense if the Germans had a minor presence, and the Brits a major. In the case fo Madagascar, as I recall the French took Madagascar originally, would it work for SAE to take it from the French during the Napoleanic times?

Quoted

Originally posted by Kaiser Kirk
The non-Dutch names could easily be a legacy of occupation following some war with Iberia. Hoo's said he does not want to rename things, so we work a reason in

As for the African territories, I'm in favor of only re-writing more recent history, since it's easier to remember. For example, the German-India connection makes more sense if the Germans had a minor presence, and the Brits a major. In the case fo Madagascar, as I recall the French took Madagascar originally, would it work for SAE to take it from the French during the Napoleanic times?

France didn't conquer Madagascar until 1863. It was an independent Kingdom with a population base as large as South Africa. It would have being a major war, one a just born nation have no chance of winning due to lack of resources. If they want Madagascar IMO they must conquer it before the factions in the island were unified.

Well Madagascar is not of interest to me, and it does sound like earlier is busy. I'm chipping in since this period of South Africa's history is also Dutch history. I've got the Plate colony being established in 1630-40 and loat to the Portuguese in 1654. This was the explanation for the non-Dutch names. Hooman's version of events will take priority and I can rewrite mine to fit as needed.


1616 : Founded Essequibo (now in Guyana)

1624 : Occupied Salvador, Brazil

1624 : Established Fort Zeelandia on Taiwan.

1627: Founded Berbice ( now in Guyana )

1630 - 1640s

Dutch take lands on Brazil's northwestern coast as New Holland and settle lands across the river from Spanish colony at Buenos Ares as the New Flanders (Plate) Colony.


1641:
The Japanese granted the Dutch a trade monopoly on Japan, but solely on Deshima, an artificial island off the coast of Nagasaki, Japan, from 1641 to 1853.

The Dutch capture Malacca from the Portuguese, to hold until 1824.

1648 :
The eighty years war comes to an end with a formal recognition The Peace of Westphalia, signed on January 30, 1648, ...
Virgin Islands first settled by the Dutch in 1648.

1650 : The stadtholder William II, Prince of Orange died, no new stadtholder appointed.

Dutch colony of New Holland returns to Portuguese hands

1652-54 : First Anglo-Dutch War, initiated by England’s’ 1651 Navigation Act.

1652 : South African Cape Hope Colony founded.

1654 :
Plate Colony taken by the Portuguese.
Freed Suriname from Great Britain.

A way to resolve Madagascar problem could be for the Dutch push for a more aggressive colonization policy in South Africa. and the immediate region.

Pirates in the region will be a serious threat to Dutch commerce and maybe they just invaded the island, defeated the pirates and their native allies and joined the area to the Cape Colony for administrative purposes. The pirate threat was in their apex from the 1680's to the early 1700's.

Quoted

Originally posted by perdedor99
France didn't conquer Madagascar until 1863.

I thought it was 1899, actually...

Quoted

Originally posted by perdedor99
A way to resolve Madagascar problem could be for the Dutch push for a more aggressive colonization policy in South Africa. and the immediate region.

Pirates in the region will be a serious threat to Dutch commerce and maybe they just invaded the island, defeated the pirates and their native allies and joined the area to the Cape Colony for administrative purposes. The pirate threat was in their apex from the 1680's to the early 1700's.

I'm certainly willing to amend my hiistory to allow that if Hooman would like me too. The height of Dutch power was about 1667, from 1672-74 they were in the third Anglo-Dutch war, and emerged fairly well from that. The Dutch position would have been even stronger post 1688.... so say 1690?

try to run it by Hooman and see what he says. Having the 5 million Malagasy being loyal members of the Dutch and later the South African Empires for over 200 years should help a lot in regard to their armed forces.