WesWorld

Similar in appearance to ANS Alioth but with an enclosed bow.

Nautica, Atlantis Aircraft Carrier laid down 1931

Displacement:
12,452 t light; 12,744 t standard; 14,615 t normal; 16,112 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
672.58 ft / 652.20 ft x 72.00 ft x 22.60 ft (normal load)
205.00 m / 198.79 m x 21.95 m x 6.89 m

Armour:

- Armour deck: 0.79" / 20 mm, Conning tower: 1.57" / 40 mm

Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 4 shafts, 34,159 shp / 25,482 Kw = 24.00 kts
Range 6,000nm at 20.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 3,368 tons

Complement:
664 - 864

Cost:
£2.526 million / $10.103 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 0 tons, 0.0 %
Armour: 470 tons, 3.2 %
- Belts: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armour Deck: 450 tons, 3.1 %
- Conning Tower: 20 tons, 0.1 %
Machinery: 1,021 tons, 7.0 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 7,960 tons, 54.5 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2,163 tons, 14.8 %
Miscellaneous weights: 3,000 tons, 20.5 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
36,778 lbs / 16,682 Kg = 340.5 x 6 " / 152 mm shells or 4.8 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.12
Metacentric height 3.8 ft / 1.1 m
Roll period: 15.6 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 71 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.00
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.68

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.482
Length to Beam Ratio: 9.06 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 25.54 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 39 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 42
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 20.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 8.00 ft / 2.44 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 34.00 ft / 10.36 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
- Mid (0 %): 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
- Stern: 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
- Average freeboard: 21.12 ft / 6.44 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 46.3 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 176.6 %
Waterplane Area: 30,785 Square feet or 2,860 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 265 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 168 lbs/sq ft or 821 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 1.78
- Longitudinal: 2.08
- Overall: 1.81
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Excellent seaboat, comfortable, rides out heavy weather easily

50 tons for aircraft
10 tons for fuel
940 tons for classrooms and trainee's quarters
2,000 tons for additional internal and external structures and subdivision

I thought only the CT was allowed to be armored aboard a training carrier...
... not that the deck armor will be visible to anyone who sees the ship. :-)
You're expecting Manzo to land on that ship then?

I'm not entirely sure on that one, we did have a lengthy discussion about the deck armor serving as protection for nasty trainee accedents.

If it isn't allowed then the Italian Giovanni Caboto would also violate the treaty rules, that is if like you said you could acctually see the deck armor.

I could be wrong. Going to take a look...

It's not given here (which is the final version as far as I know).

Quoted

Ships shall neither be armed nor armored, excepting that the island, if present, may be armored

... and it was accepted by all nations...

Not if you read this post....(2nd and 3rd page)

http://oponn.loadster.org/thread.php?thr…1a4e748a2b1abc3

I think what happened is that the discussion waned, the provisions for training carriers was drafted and everyone missed the exclusion of deck armor in the draft.

If you look at the discussion there was no disagreement on adding deck armor either, in fact we really didn't come to a conclusion on that one...

Oh I have read the post all right. I guess it wasn't added to the final draft because we didn't come to a conclusion on that subject... so only CT armor is allowed.
... but like I said before, it's not as if one can actually see the deck armor.
Japan's multi purpose training carrier (multi purpose and legal except for one part of the world!) will have deck armor as well.

Well, if the deck is layered with enough teak (such as in Rocky's design for a training carrier) then the deck will be lightly armoured.

So, the latest plan is to NOT convert Siboney to a training carrier?


The revised treaty draft here says max speed of 20 knots, and no armor other than on the CT. Now, the armor question was kind of left open in the discussions, but the speed seemed fairly clear. And certainly a little bit of deck armor would be easily hidden, as would some excess speed.

Well, one problem with converting existing tonnage to a training carrier would be the fact that it would apparently still count against your total carrier tonnage, leaving a block of tonnage off limits until the converted ships would be eligible for replacement.

The armored deck could be listed as a structual member to keep the deck up and not as "protection".

Quoted

Originally posted by CanisD
Well, one problem with converting existing tonnage to a training carrier would be the fact that it would apparently still count against your total carrier tonnage, leaving a block of tonnage off limits until the converted ships would be eligible for replacement.

How so? Convertion to training ship would be considered a form of disposal. The ship would no longer be able to perform its original task as a fleet carrier. In reguards to the Atlantean training BB, she only counts against BB tonnage due to the speacial clause involving the oversize Atlantean carriers.

Without that clause Atlantis would have 2 smaller fleet carriers and the Memnons would not be building as the Azaes class BC's would still be in service.

The plan is to retain Siboney and build Nautica, given the fact that Atlantis is entitled to 12 or more capital ship hulls training ship limits are doubled.

The 24 knots speed is an error on my part in reguards to the rules. Still hung up on the 24 knot speed of auxillary's, support ships and unlimited vessels.

I still personally think the deck armor issue was left unresolved when listed as such in the new rules. If the general sentiment is to leave it as is then the armor will be simply omited from the design (in wording anyway).

20mm of deck protection really isn't something to worry about and we already have another nation building one with the same armor officially.

Thoughts?

Quoted

H. RULES FOR DISPOSAL AND CHANGE OF OWNERSHIP OF VESSELS OF WAR



I.



The present Treaty provides for the disposal of vessels of war in the

following ways:

(i) By scrapping (sinking or breaking up);

(ii) By converting the vessel to a hulk;

(iii) By converting the vessel to target use exclusively;

(iv) By retaining the vessel exclusively for experimental purposes;

(v) By retaining the vessel exclusively for training purposes;

(vi) By converting the vessel to a museum ship or memorial.

So its fine to convert a vessel into a training ship and not have it still count against your treaty limits.

I'm not sure about the enclosed bow if the deck is still the same height as Alioth, maybe a bit too tall.

Quoted

Originally posted by Red Admiral
I'm not sure about the enclosed bow if the deck is still the same height as Alioth, maybe a bit too tall.

I'm inclined to disagree considering that Unicorn had a double storied hangar with an enclosed bow. She won't win an esthetics competition..... Unicorn has two 16 foot 6 inch hangars to accomidate floatplanes, albit on what appears to be a lower freeboard at the lower hangar deck level.

Unicorn is 30 feet shorter, roughly 10 feet wider, 3000 tons heavier and is equiped with guns and considerably more aircraft. I doubt she would improve much on a similar design of 8 years earlier unable to mount side armor, armament and only 2 aircraft.

heres the redesign as per the proper speed. Four shafts seems excessive for a 20 knot ship...

Nautica, Atlantis Aircraft Carrier laid down 1931

Displacement:
12,452 t light; 12,744 t standard; 14,615 t normal; 16,112 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
672.58 ft / 652.20 ft x 72.00 ft x 22.60 ft (normal load)
205.00 m / 198.79 m x 21.95 m x 6.89 m

Armour:

- Armour deck: 0.79" / 20 mm, Conning tower: 1.57" / 40 mm

Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 3 shafts, 17,795 shp / 13,275 Kw = 20.00 kts
Range 6,000nm at 20.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 3,368 tons

Complement:
664 - 864

Cost:
£2.227 million / $8.907 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 0 tons, 0.0 %
Armour: 470 tons, 3.2 %
- Belts: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armour Deck: 450 tons, 3.1 %
- Conning Tower: 20 tons, 0.1 %
Machinery: 532 tons, 3.6 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 8,450 tons, 57.8 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2,163 tons, 14.8 %
Miscellaneous weights: 3,000 tons, 20.5 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
47,434 lbs / 21,516 Kg = 439.2 x 6 " / 152 mm shells or 6.6 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.10
Metacentric height 3.7 ft / 1.1 m
Roll period: 15.8 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.00
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.66

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.482
Length to Beam Ratio: 9.06 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 25.54 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 30 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 42
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 20.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 8.00 ft / 2.44 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 34.00 ft / 10.36 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
- Mid (0 %): 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
- Stern: 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
- Average freeboard: 21.12 ft / 6.44 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 35.6 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 176.6 %
Waterplane Area: 30,785 Square feet or 2,860 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 322 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 179 lbs/sq ft or 872 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 1.91
- Longitudinal: 2.21
- Overall: 1.94
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Excellent seaboat, comfortable, rides out heavy weather easily

I think the argument made by some was that while you could legally dispose of the ship by conversion, you could not build replacement tonnage for that ship until the required time had passed. Its somewhat a situation of the treaty saying two different things, you can convert existing ships, and they don't count against your tonnage, but once you convert them you can't replace them until 20 years has passed from their initial completion.