WesWorld

I have a few questions about this ship. Im planning on buying an old Liner from the US and rebuilding it into a carrier.

1.- How much would it cost? Would it be a Full refit (25%) or a partial reconstruction (50%)? Or somewhere in the middle (say 40%)?

2.- Could the material removed during the rebuilding process be turned into scrap?

3.- In special cases, can a merchant ship bought OOC be scrapped to provide warship materials?



Sim by CanisD

SS Fort Santiago, United States Ocean Liner laid down 1919

Displacement:
10,883 t light; 11,163 t standard; 13,997 t normal; 16,264 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
517.45 ft / 500.00 ft x 75.00 ft x 23.00 ft (normal load)
157.72 m / 152.40 m x 22.86 m x 7.01 m

Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 2 shafts, 22,640 shp / 16,889 Kw = 21.00 kts
Range 10,000nm at 18.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 5,101 tons

Complement:
643 - 836

Cost:
£1.077 million / $4.307 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 0 tons, 0.0 %
Machinery: 804 tons, 5.7 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 3,829 tons, 27.4 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 3,114 tons, 22.2 %
Miscellaneous weights: 6,250 tons, 44.7 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
25,344 lbs / 11,496 Kg = 234.7 x 6 " / 152 mm shells or 3.0 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.09
Metacentric height 3.8 ft / 1.2 m
Roll period: 16.1 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 60 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.00
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 2.00

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has low quarterdeck
Block coefficient: 0.568
Length to Beam Ratio: 6.67 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 22.36 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 46 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 30
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 4.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 15.00 ft / 4.57 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 35.00 ft / 10.67 m
- Forecastle (28 %): 25.60 ft / 7.80 m
- Mid (50 %): 25.00 ft / 7.62 m
- Quarterdeck (28 %): 17.00 ft / 5.18 m (25.00 ft / 7.62 m before break)
- Stern: 18.00 ft / 5.49 m
- Average freeboard: 24.19 ft / 7.37 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 68.0 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 198.3 %
Waterplane Area: 26,617 Square feet or 2,473 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 178 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 94 lbs/sq ft or 457 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.92
- Longitudinal: 2.07
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Excellent seaboat, comfortable, rides out heavy weather easily

1st class 16 tons each, 125 passengers at 2000 tons total
2nd Class 8 tons each, 450 passengers at 3600 tons total
575 passengers
Cargo: 500 tons
Misc Weight: 150 tons


***


Cinco de Mayo, Mexican Aircraft Carrier laid down 1919 (rebuilt 1933)

Displacement:
10,207 t light; 10,506 t standard; 12,780 t normal; 14,599 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
517.59 ft / 500.00 ft x 75.00 ft x 21.00 ft (normal load)
157.76 m / 152.40 m x 22.86 m x 6.40 m

Armament:
8 - 5.00" / 127 mm guns in single mounts, 62.50lbs / 28.35kg shells, 1932 Model
Dual purpose guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side ends, evenly spread, all raised mounts - superfiring
16 - 1.10" / 27.9 mm guns (4x4 guns), 0.67lbs / 0.30kg shells, 1932 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, all amidships, all raised mounts - superfiring
18 - 0.30" / 7.6 mm guns in single mounts, 0.01lbs / 0.00kg shells, 1932 Model
Machine guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
Weight of broadside 511 lbs / 232 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 150

Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 4.00" / 102 mm 243.60 ft / 74.25 m 10.39 ft / 3.17 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 75 % of normal length

- Torpedo Bulkhead:
1.50" / 38 mm 243.60 ft / 74.25 m 19.49 ft / 5.94 m

- Armour deck: 2.00" / 51 mm, Conning tower: 4.00" / 102 mm

Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 2 shafts, 21,518 shp / 16,053 Kw = 21.00 kts
Range 8,400nm at 18.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 4,093 tons

Complement:
600 - 781

Cost:
£1.130 million / $4.520 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 64 tons, 0.5 %
Armour: 1,767 tons, 13.8 %
- Belts: 471 tons, 3.7 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 264 tons, 2.1 %
- Armament: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armour Deck: 985 tons, 7.7 %
- Conning Tower: 47 tons, 0.4 %
Machinery: 764 tons, 6.0 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 4,013 tons, 31.4 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2,573 tons, 20.1 %
Miscellaneous weights: 3,600 tons, 28.2 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
33,136 lbs / 15,030 Kg = 530.2 x 5.0 " / 127 mm shells or 5.8 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.20
Metacentric height 4.5 ft / 1.4 m
Roll period: 14.8 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 60 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.10
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 2.00

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has low quarterdeck
Block coefficient: 0.568
Length to Beam Ratio: 6.67 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 22.36 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 45 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 30
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 4.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 15.00 ft / 4.57 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 37.00 ft / 11.28 m
- Forecastle (26 %): 27.60 ft / 8.41 m
- Mid (50 %): 27.00 ft / 8.23 m
- Quarterdeck (26 %): 19.00 ft / 5.79 m (27.00 ft / 8.23 m before break)
- Stern: 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
- Average freeboard: 26.27 ft / 8.01 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 74.9 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 229.4 %
Waterplane Area: 26,617 Square feet or 2,473 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 173 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 96 lbs/sq ft or 470 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.90
- Longitudinal: 2.49
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Excellent seaboat, comfortable, can fire her guns in the heaviest weather

45 aircraft

Consider that most aircraft avalible (to my knowledge, I'm still in the process of looking stuff up) don't have folding wings and are biplanes. While that means that the relatively short flight deck will work, I don't know about the number of aircraft. Check the Oyama hybrid in your Aussie light carrier thread with mid-30s era British aircraft.

It should be either a 50% or 75%-cost conversion. I'm leaning torwards 50 but cannot say for sure. I think we agreed that the material 'removed' in a refit/build/construct can be converted to scrap (well 15% of it anyway) but am not at all sure if doing that with a "merchie conversion" would be kosher.

Oh the ship itself: An armour deck should be feasible, assuming it's the flight deck. For the TDS - you'll have to add bulges. But I seriously doubt if an armoured belt can be added.


However...is this really what Mexico wants/needs? I would actually think that Mexico would be able to make better use of a hybrid than Australia would...

What about using one of those older American Battlewagons that are coming up for disposal?

They are just as fast, but longer...and a hybrid with twin or/and triple 14 inch guns would be...amusing to say the least.

I've converted a liner to a training carrier as a 25% refit, but that's not going to be as complex as converting a full carrier out of the ship. We've had 75% for a warship to carrier conversion.

I second Swampy's armor comments. I'll go further than him on the need question and simply ask why Mexico would need any kind of aerial power projection capability.

I believe we did allow for material removed in refits to be recycled, though I keep forgetting to use this rule.

Quoted

3.- In special cases, can a merchant ship bought OOC be scrapped to provide warship materials?

No. Otherwise, we'd have all sorts of special cases.

"Why would Mexico need any kind of aerial power projection capability?"

Anti-Iberian duty to the south, or maybe Cuba?

Quoted

simply ask why Mexico would need any kind of aerial power projection capability.

I'm thinking to help in the remoter areas, perhaps in the far south, where airbases might be few and far between.

(Tho seaplanes might be cheaper...Seversky 2PAs perhaps?)

As already asked above: For what does Mexico need a carrier? Is Mexicos supporting fleet big enough to maintain a carrier at sea via fleet train? What kind of blue water action is expected by the Mexicans? Has Mexico a fleet big enough to assemble a "task force" centered on a carrier?

In general one has to ask if a carrier is the next logical step if you´re Mexico? Is Mexicos fleet already balanced and provides enough smaller hulls (sloops, DEs, DDs, cruiser) for more immediate duties?

while I think it is realistic to gain first experience with a rebuild (something like the Indian conversion) I still can´t see Mexico doing the step towards a reconstructed or newly buidl CV right now. I´d focus on other ship classes first. How many seaplane carrier does Mexico own? Perhaps this is a cheaper way to get similar results?

My opinion of course...

Why not take over the remaining Sackets Harbour Class CV?

None of the Sacketts Harbor class units would be available for sale or transfer yet, according to the Treaty, they're not old enough.

Why does Mexico need a carrier?

1.- Pride. To be the second Latin American country with one.

2.- Training. I have my eye on a couple of the Sackett Harbors. Just waiting for them to be avialable.

3.- I want my battleline (dont laugh :-D) to have some organic airpower. Recent US fleet excercises showed the value of CVs.

4.- Force any aggresor (read Iberia) to deploy CVs in an attack on Mexico.


Why a converted liner and not a new built or converted BB?

Price. Civilian ships are "free"no warship materials are needed to buy one. I just have to pay the rebuilding cost. Also if I buy a BB Im not going to turn it into a carrier. Ill keep the BIG guns. :-D

Quoted

In general one has to ask if a carrier is the next logical step if you´re Mexico? Is Mexicos fleet already balanced and provides enough smaller hulls (sloops, DEs, DDs, cruiser) for more immediate duties?

Its pretty balanced at this time. 4+1 CLs, 15 DDs, 2 GBs, 8 PBs, 7 FFs. Plus a number of lighter ships. I dont have any Seaplane carriers but I do plan on buying Langley.

Quoted

Its pretty balanced at this time. 4+1 CLs, 15 DDs, 2 GBs, 8 PBs, 7 FFs. Plus a number of lighter ships.

Don't forget Santa Anna.

^That too^ but the question was about the lighter ships.



Here's what Ill probably build. smaller than the first one. She'll cost 4,700 tons plus whatever the US asks.

The TB simulates reinforces bulkheads, improved subdivisions, and AMC torpedo defence (empty barrels).

A number of Liberty ships where fitted with armor in WWII, so it might be possible to fit an armor belt.

She carries 30-40 AC, which is about what the CVEs carried in WWII.


Cinco de Mayo, Mexico Aircraft carrier laid down 1919 (Engine 1933)

Displacement:
9,415 t light; 9,693 t standard; 11,726 t normal; 13,352 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
520.00 ft / 520.00 ft x 70.00 ft x 20.50 ft (normal load)
158.50 m / 158.50 m x 21.34 m x 6.25 m

Armament:
8 - 5.00" / 127 mm guns in single mounts, 62.50lbs / 28.35kg shells, 1933 Model
Dual purpose guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread
16 - 1.10" / 27.9 mm guns (4x4 guns), 0.67lbs / 0.30kg shells, 1933 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, all amidships
20 - 0.50" / 12.7 mm guns (10x2 guns), 0.06lbs / 0.03kg shells, 1933 Model
Machine guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
Weight of broadside 512 lbs / 232 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 150

Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 2.00" / 51 mm 270.00 ft / 82.30 m 10.00 ft / 3.05 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 80 % of normal length

- Torpedo Bulkhead:
0.50" / 13 mm 270.00 ft / 82.30 m 20.00 ft / 6.10 m

- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 1.00" / 25 mm - -

- Armour deck: 2.00" / 51 mm, Conning tower: 4.00" / 102 mm

Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 2 shafts, 19,863 shp / 14,818 Kw = 21.00 kts
Range 15,000nm at 15.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 3,659 tons

Complement:
563 - 732

Cost:
£1.013 million / $4.052 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 64 tons, 0.5 %
Armour: 1,350 tons, 11.5 %
- Belts: 243 tons, 2.1 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 100 tons, 0.9 %
- Armament: 23 tons, 0.2 %
- Armour Deck: 940 tons, 8.0 %
- Conning Tower: 44 tons, 0.4 %
Machinery: 579 tons, 4.9 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 3,922 tons, 33.4 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2,311 tons, 19.7 %
Miscellaneous weights: 3,500 tons, 29.8 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
30,740 lbs / 13,944 Kg = 491.8 x 5.0 " / 127 mm shells or 5.0 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.11
Metacentric height 3.6 ft / 1.1 m
Roll period: 15.5 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.06
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 2.00

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has low quarterdeck
Block coefficient: 0.550
Length to Beam Ratio: 7.43 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 22.80 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 42 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 35
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 37.00 ft / 11.28 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 27.00 ft / 8.23 m
- Mid (50 %): 27.00 ft / 8.23 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 19.00 ft / 5.79 m (27.00 ft / 8.23 m before break)
- Stern: 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
- Average freeboard: 26.68 ft / 8.13 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 75.2 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 232.1 %
Waterplane Area: 25,403 Square feet or 2,360 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 180 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 92 lbs/sq ft or 450 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.92
- Longitudinal: 2.73
- Overall: 1.03
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Excellent seaboat, comfortable, can fire her guns in the heaviest weather

Quoted

1.- Pride. To be the second Latin American country with one.

2.- Training. I have my eye on a couple of the Sackett Harbors. Just waiting for them to be avialable.

3.- I want my battleline (dont laugh :-D) to have some organic airpower. Recent US fleet excercises showed the value of CVs.

4.- Force any aggresor (read Iberia) to deploy CVs in an attack on Mexico.

1. There's no prize for finishing second.

2. If you have your eye on a Sackets Harbour, why not just pony up the extra ~3,000 t and get one built by the gringos? Pride's not an excuse - you haven't built any cruisers or your PD locally either.

3. What battleline?

3.1. Bear in mind that fielding a carrier will require you to allocate a significant chunk of your limited cruiser/destroyers assets to escorting that carrier - thus weakening you wherever the carrier is not present.

4. I expect they would anyway - but with a top speed of 21 knots, it'll be the Iberians who decide if, how and where a battle will take place.

Liberty ships fitted with armor? Anybody have a source at hand for this?

That might be a reference to the reinforcement some Liberty ships received. IIRC, early in the program there were problems with hull strength and cracking. As an emergency measure to keep the ships in service, plates of steel were riveted to the outer hull on either side. See this excerpt:

Quoted

WILLIAM STURGESS
...an unforgettable Christmas...
by Joe Hafford

As soon as I got my assignment, I gathered up my seabag and suitcase and struck out for Staten Island where the William Sturgis was located. The Sturgis was another Liberty Ship, currently in a shipyard undergoing strengthening of the hull. It was just in time - I was broke.

A comment about the strengthening process. Liberty Ships were of all welded construction which in and of itself was a highly controversial method of fabrication for ships. The basic problem was that the all welded construction made for a more rigid hull and in heavy seas the hull had a tendency to crack. There were unsettling rumors that some Liberty Ships had broken completely in two in storms. After the war I learned that in fact it had happened although I never heard of any loss of life as a result. Rivited construction made for a more flexible hull that would 'give' rather than break. In order to protect against cracking, heavy steel plates were rivited to each side of the ship up by the main deck. The plates were three or four feet wide, at least an inch thick and stretched across the middle third of the ship. The job was well under way when I arrived and was completed in less than two days. We were then moved to a loading dock in Manhatten.

Mr Hafford's whole story can be found here:

http://www.liberty-ship.com/html/contrib…afford(0.html

1.- Hey its still an acomplishment to beat the Brazilians and the Argentinians to it.

2.- A Sackett Harbor will cost twice as much (4,900 tons more). So Im waiting for secondhand ones which cost much less. Cost is extremly important. Im even rethinking my Homebuilt quick and dirty Cruiser because I wont have enough cash untill 1933.

3.- Mmmm... Well there's Santa Anna ... :-D. I have enough cruisers/destroyers to escort her. Since I already allocated the two Thracius and the six O'Briens to Santa Anna. I also have two 25kt Gunboat squadrons which could escort her.

Quoted

Liberty ships fitted with armor? Anybody have a source at hand for this?

Ive seen pictures of one of the museum Liberty's with "cement" armor.

Feh. If I wanted to, I could design and build a carrier before you were halfway done with yours. However, Brazil has its priorities straight and wants to build a real fleet. Besides which, carriers haven't yet proven their worth and it's unknown whether or not they will.

Theres always a bigger fish...

Id like too see you try. Its always easier and faster to convert an existing ship than build a new one from scratch.

I have another question. If I went with a less extensive/expensive (25%) rebuild, more of a training ship type, would it be possible to fit 25-30 biplanes, or 20 monoplanes aboard?

Quoted

Cost is extremely important.

Quoted

Its always easier and faster to convert an existing ship than build a new one from scratch.

Both comments are generally correct, but it doesn't automatically mean that "less is more". Stop-gaps are indeed quicker, yet they're only a good use of resources if that time difference is crucial or if the stop-gap will fill the operational requirement for a long time. Neither appears to be the case with this design.

Quoted

2.- A Sackett Harbor will cost twice as much (4,900 tons more). So Im waiting for secondhand ones which cost much less.

A 50% rebuild will cost you 4,700 t, plus a purchase fee. You'll also have to shell out at least 30% of the Sacket Harbour cost to purchase her later. So we're looking at net expenditures of 4,700 t + ~1,000 t to buy the liner + ~3,000 t for the used Sacket = ~ 8,700 t.

The cost of a new Sackets Harbour is 9,600 t, plus building fees if they apply.

So in order to save about 1,000 t of resources over the long term, you're going to saddle Mexico with a mediocre CVE on an old hull for at least a decade, and then you're going to buy a 20 year old CVL that'll need a refit or rebuild within ten years of the purchase?

Quoted

I have another question. If I went with a less extensive/expensive (25%) rebuild, more of a training ship type, would it be possible to fit 25-30 biplanes, or 20 monoplanes aboard?

You'd get a training carrier - a flat deck with a small workshop to service break-downs and an emergency fuel supply. No hanger, no munitions, no operational fuel load, no accommodation for the air group complement.