WesWorld

Another ship for 1932. This will be Australia's first carrier.

Its a hybrid designed to operate with my battleline, which might place it into critical situations. Hence the guns. She will be capable of operating 36 AC with a max of 42 AC.

One thing to note is that she has an Odin style angled flight deck.



HMAS Enterprise, Australia Light Carrier laid down 1932

Displacement:
9,431 t light; 9,750 t standard; 11,696 t normal; 13,253 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
601.66 ft / 590.00 ft x 59.00 ft x 24.00 ft (normal load)
183.39 m / 179.83 m x 17.98 m x 7.32 m

Armament:
6 - 6.00" / 152 mm guns (2x3 guns), 108.00lbs / 48.99kg shells, 1932 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline, all forward, 1 raised mount - superfiring
8 - 4.00" / 102 mm guns in single mounts, 32.00lbs / 14.51kg shells, 1932 Model
Dual purpose guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread
16 - 1.57" / 40.0 mm guns (4x4 guns), 1.95lbs / 0.89kg shells, 1932 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread
20 - 0.79" / 20.0 mm guns (10x2 guns), 0.24lbs / 0.11kg shells, 1932 Model
Machine guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 940 lbs / 426 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 150

Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 2.00" / 51 mm 320.00 ft / 97.54 m 9.00 ft / 2.74 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 83 % of normal length
Main belt does not fully cover magazines and engineering spaces

- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 2.90" / 74 mm 1.20" / 30 mm 2.90" / 74 mm
2nd: 1.20" / 30 mm - -

- Armour deck: 1.20" / 30 mm

Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 4 shafts, 80,519 shp / 60,067 Kw = 32.00 kts
Range 15,000nm at 15.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 3,503 tons

Complement:
562 - 731

Cost:
£3.461 million / $13.846 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 118 tons, 1.0 %
Armour: 928 tons, 7.9 %
- Belts: 247 tons, 2.1 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 151 tons, 1.3 %
- Armour Deck: 530 tons, 4.5 %
- Conning Tower: 0 tons, 0.0 %
Machinery: 2,377 tons, 20.3 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 4,008 tons, 34.3 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2,266 tons, 19.4 %
Miscellaneous weights: 2,000 tons, 17.1 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
14,831 lbs / 6,727 Kg = 137.3 x 6.0 " / 152 mm shells or 1.7 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.12
Metacentric height 2.8 ft / 0.9 m
Roll period: 14.8 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 51 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.24
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.30

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
and transom stern
Block coefficient: 0.490
Length to Beam Ratio: 10.00 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 27.75 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 56 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 39
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 25.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 25.00 ft / 7.62 m
- Forecastle (30 %): 21.00 ft / 6.40 m
- Mid (50 %): 21.00 ft / 6.40 m
- Quarterdeck (20 %): 21.00 ft / 6.40 m
- Stern: 21.00 ft / 6.40 m
- Average freeboard: 21.48 ft / 6.55 m
Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 92.8 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 170.1 %
Waterplane Area: 23,896 Square feet or 2,220 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 136 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 97 lbs/sq ft or 473 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.95
- Longitudinal: 1.82
- Overall: 1.02
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

Some more pics of that model would be nice. What is it? And for that matter, what's an Odin?

The thought that comes to mind is that it's Urumi on 75% of the tonnage. Similar armament, air group, speed.

Just looking at the pic, I can't concieve of how you'd jam 18 aircraft below decks, let alone 36. The flight deck looks very short, which will make it difficult to use a deck park or operate large groups of aircraft at one time.

British experience with Furious should indicate that the forward superstructure will create some serious turbulence issues behind it...

I'm pretty sure that this design is illegal by treaty. I could be wrong since I don't go over it very often.

Interesting. Appears to follow a 1931 American design concept on a German hull (complete with 1945 era planes)

If this is listed as a carrier it "might" be legal. If this is listed as a cruiser....I don't think so.
(Side note: Italy will have competition for carrier oddities)
This Odin?

Yeah - I didn't mention the angled deck or deck-edge lift since we've been over that ground recently.

But the ship would be a legal carrier according to Cleito.

Treaty-wise, it's a legal design: the Treaty allows carriers to be armed with guns of up to 6" without limit on their numbers, or up to 6 8.2" guns.

Here is your ship, courtesy of the USN. It has similar firepower armour and speed and carries 36 aircraft. Hull dimensions are 640x67x22 and displacement 12000tons. Grouping the main guns forwards will help somewhat, but I can't see a 2000ton reduction in displacement being possible.

Here is another design of similar size mounting 9x6" guns

http://www.german-navy.de/smb/scalemodel…odin/scale.html

That's where the picture is from. I'm sure DFox only posted the pic as a general layout concept. If he wants, I can try drawing it at some point.

Heres the link http://www.german-navy.de/smb/scalemodel…odin/scale.html

Quoted

Yeah - I didn't mention the angled deck or deck-edge lift since we've been over that ground recently.

First off, she will have a centerline lift, not a deck edge one like on Odin. The angle deck is due to her small size and hybrid arrangement, plus it just looks better. The next Aussie carriers will be conventional.

Quoted

British experience with Furious should indicate that the forward superstructure will create some serious turbulence issues behind it...

Turning into the wind should remove this problem. Since the bridge would be to starboard relative to the wind. But that might be a problem.

Quoted

Just looking at the pic, I can't concieve of how you'd jam 18 aircraft below decks, let alone 36. The flight deck looks very short, which will make it difficult to use a deck park or operate large groups of aircraft at one time.

I figure if Ranger could carry 86 planes, she might ba able to carry 36 using American carrer practice. She will also have a bigger flight/hangar deck than Odin (see below) Also she will mainly carry fighters and scouts which tend to be smaller. She wont be carrying Avengers, Hellcats, or Helldivers.

Quoted

Here is your ship, courtesy of the USN. It has similar firepower armour and speed and carries 36 aircraft. Hull dimensions are 640x67x22 and displacement 12000tons. Grouping the main guns forwards will help somewhat, but I can't see a 2000ton reduction in displacement being possible.

The USN carrier is a knot faster and has a lot more armor which can account for the 2000 tons.


Updated sim, with much larger dimesions.

HMAS Enterprise, Australia Light Carrier laid down 1932

Displacement:
9,414 t light; 9,734 t standard; 11,703 t normal; 13,278 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
651.66 ft / 640.00 ft x 64.00 ft x 20.00 ft (normal load)
198.63 m / 195.07 m x 19.51 m x 6.10 m

Armament:
6 - 6.00" / 152 mm guns (2x3 guns), 108.00lbs / 48.99kg shells, 1932 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline, all forward, 1 raised mount - superfiring
8 - 4.00" / 102 mm guns in single mounts, 32.00lbs / 14.51kg shells, 1932 Model
Dual purpose guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread
16 - 1.57" / 40.0 mm guns (4x4 guns), 1.95lbs / 0.88kg shells, 1932 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread
20 - 0.79" / 20.0 mm guns (10x2 guns), 0.24lbs / 0.11kg shells, 1932 Model
Machine guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 940 lbs / 426 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 150

Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 2.00" / 51 mm 370.00 ft / 112.78 m 9.00 ft / 2.74 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 89 % of normal length

- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 2.90" / 74 mm 1.20" / 30 mm 2.90" / 74 mm
2nd: 1.20" / 30 mm - -

- Armour deck: 1.20" / 30 mm

Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 4 shafts, 78,973 shp / 58,914 Kw = 32.00 kts
Range 15,000nm at 15.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 3,544 tons

Complement:
562 - 731

Cost:
£3.430 million / $13.719 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 118 tons, 1.0 %
Armour: 1,064 tons, 9.1 %
- Belts: 282 tons, 2.4 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 151 tons, 1.3 %
- Armour Deck: 630 tons, 5.4 %
- Conning Tower: 0 tons, 0.0 %
Machinery: 2,331 tons, 19.9 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 4,402 tons, 37.6 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2,289 tons, 19.6 %
Miscellaneous weights: 1,500 tons, 12.8 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
17,655 lbs / 8,008 Kg = 163.5 x 6.0 " / 152 mm shells or 2.0 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.14
Metacentric height 3.3 ft / 1.0 m
Roll period: 14.8 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.21
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.30

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
and transom stern
Block coefficient: 0.500
Length to Beam Ratio: 10.00 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 28.87 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 54 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 54
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 25.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 25.00 ft / 7.62 m
- Forecastle (30 %): 21.00 ft / 6.40 m
- Mid (50 %): 21.00 ft / 6.40 m
- Quarterdeck (20 %): 21.00 ft / 6.40 m
- Stern: 21.00 ft / 6.40 m
- Average freeboard: 21.48 ft / 6.55 m
Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 86.9 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 202.0 %
Waterplane Area: 28,380 Square feet or 2,637 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 143 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 100 lbs/sq ft or 490 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.99
- Longitudinal: 1.31
- Overall: 1.02
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

Quoted

She will also have a bigger flight/hangar deck than Odin

Seeing the Odin's dimensions, I wouldn't be surprised if the flight/hangar deck on Odin is much bigger than that on the HMAS Enterprise. My guess for the length would be about 130-140 meters and the width is 54 meters.

Thanks for the link. And point taken on the lift.

Quoted

Turning into the wind should remove this problem. Since the bridge would be to starboard relative to the wind. But that might be a problem.

Only if the ship is at rest - otherwise, even in dead calm conditions, the ship's own speed will create a net airflow over the bow, around the superstructure, and onto the flight deck. I think you'd be better to mimic a "Kiev" style hybrid superstructure if you're going to do it.

Quoted

I figure if Ranger could carry 86 planes, she might ba able to carry 36 using American carrer practice. She will also have a bigger flight/hangar deck than Odin (see below) Also she will mainly carry fighters and scouts which tend to be smaller. She wont be carrying Avengers, Hellcats, or Helldivers.

With Aussie-E's deck being as short as it is (not more than ~500'?) you won't have room for much deck parking at all, plus your hanger will be much narrower and perhaps half as long as Ranger's. All in all, I think you'd be lucky to get 18-24 aircraft in there - this really needs a drawing, if ShinRa does want to take it on.

And bear in mind Ranger didn't operate TBDs either.

I found some better comparisons.

The Sacket Harbor class carriers are 90 ft shorter and 8 ft thinner. They can operate 30 AC

Urumi is about the same size (dimension wise), she also has two 6" turrents and operates 40 AC.

The Independance class carriers where 40 ft shorter and 6 ft wider. They could operate 45 AC.

The Escort carriers where 100+ ft shorter and 10 ft wider. They could operate 34 AC.

Based on this I think Enterprise is big enough, even with the guns.

BTW the biggest aircraft which will be used of her will be Wildcats, folding wing Dautless, and improved Applecores.

Its bad to make comparisons with proper carriers - this hybrid only has about 60%-70% of the flight deck area and hangar dimensions.

Quoted

BTW the biggest aircraft which will be used of her will be Wildcats, folding wing Dauntless, and improved Applecores.

Why not Seafires, Skuas, Swordfish and Cudas? Or whatever Rob brings out instead.

Of course you really want this;

Seeing as it's my first time trying to do a carrier based on a spring*, let alone a cruiser/carrier, here's the basic layout thus far. I'm probably wrong on figuring out the Hangar, but the box as drawn is currently 383ft x 47ft

Wasn't sure how angled a flight deck DFox could get away with, so there's two options on that for now.

You want a fairly small angle, say 5-10° which gives a move out from the side of about 40-50ft. At the moment I'd say that the overhang on both of the above is too large. The hangar can't be that long or wide as there needs to be a lot of room for uptakes. You probably want the lift to be just aft of the superstructure so as not to be in the way of planes taking off and landing all the time. Fitting the secondary and light guns is a real problem.

The problem with such a hybrid design is that she isn't much good as a cruiser and is far too limited as a carrier, with 36ac probably only carry enough ordnance and fuel for 2 sorties. You'd probably be better off with an airgroup of 20 of so and using the extra space for fuel and bombs.

I'd point out that the beam of this ship is 64 ft, and the flight decks currently overhang 42 and 33 ft respectively at the moment. I'm worried of putting in even less an angle will result in almost no room for the superstructure, let alone the elevator.

I was planning to put the 40 and 20mm on Sponson, and on the foredeck. I guess the 4" would have to be sponson'd as well, but that'll be tricky to do.

Quoted

Originally posted by Red Admiral

Quoted

BTW the biggest aircraft which will be used of her will be Wildcats, folding wing Dauntless, and improved Applecores.

Why not Seafires, Skuas, Swordfish and Cudas? Or whatever Rob brings out instead.

Probably Sea Defiants and some sort of Griffon/Vulture-engined Barracuda.

Unless I get a better idea.

Sea Defiant like Blackburn Roc? Shurely not.

Maybe something developed from Gloster F5/34? Fit a Hercules engine and you have something like the Bristol 153.

Barracuda seems a good candidate for either the Exe/Vulture/Fairey Prince/Monarch.

Quoted

Its bad to make comparisons with proper carriers - this hybrid only has about 60%-70% of the flight deck area and hangar dimensions

Enterprise is considerably longer than the other carriers. And lenght is what counts in hybrids.

Quoted

The problem with such a hybrid design is that she isn't much good as a cruiser and is far too limited as a carrier, with 36ac probably only carry enough ordnance and fuel for 2 sorties. You'd probably be better off with an airgroup of 20 of so and using the extra space for fuel and bombs

Her role is one of scouting and defense. Fighters and scouts need less ordnance than bombers, and one of the lessons learned in the pirate incident is that the more planes the better.

She isnt a cruiser the guns are for protection due to the fact that she will operate with the battleline where the probabilities of her running into enemy surface ships is much greater.

Quoted

Fitting the secondary and light guns is a real problem.

I was planning to put the 40 and 20mm on Sponson, and on the foredeck. I guess the 4" would have to be sponson'd as well, but that'll be tricky to do

My tought was to stagger the secondaries. Those on the starboard side would be farther foward than those too port. Two 40mm mounts would go on the fantail the others on either side of the superstructure.

Quoted

Why not Seafires, Skuas, Swordfish and Cudas? Or whatever Rob brings out instead.

Of course you really want this;

*starts drooling*

The RAN will go with American AC while the RAAF will go with British AC. But both the Dauntless and Applecores will probably be Australian version. The Applecores will not be the historical ones but real improvements on the Stringbags. There might even be some whoally Australian AC, say Seahorses (F-51Ns) and Seahawks.

By Sea Defiant do you mean the single seat version?

Quoted

The Sacket Harbor class carriers are 90 ft shorter and 8 ft thinner. They can operate 30 AC

But Sacketts Harbour does not mount two 6" turrets.

Quoted

Urumi is about the same size (dimension wise), she also has two 6" turrents and operates 40 AC.

Urumi is several metres longer and about 15% wider; and I think you can mount the turrets closer to the stern than you can to the bow, so less deck space is lost on Urumi.

Quoted

The Independance class carriers where 40 ft shorter and 6 ft wider. They could operate 45 AC.

They have no 15 cm turrets.

Quoted

The Escort carriers where 100+ ft shorter and 10 ft wider. They could operate 34 AC.

But they have a fraction of the machinery that would be in Aussie-E.

ShinRa: Can you blow off an area for uptakes and island, an elevator, and add in the outline of a folded-up F4F?

36 present (1931) day fighters maybe. Some of those in storage as spares?

For this type of frame and duty I'd say two squadrons of fighters-scouts. That should be 24 aircraft if you use 12 plane squadrons. Chile uses 14 plane squadrons for random reasons (squad leader and two wingmen plus two two-man elements).

24 planes plus half a squadron in storage seems like enough for a scout crusier-carrier. As the planes get bigger (if the elevator can take it) the number of planes will reduce as storage goes down.