WesWorld

January 4
At a hotel on the outskirts of Rio Curato, a group of Argentine and South African negotiators met. The South African Government had lodged a complaint at the end of 1942 with the Argentine Government that it had wilfully broken the terms of the Treaty of Valparaiso, namely Article V Para 2. (No armed vessel over 600 tons (light displacement) shall be constructed) and Para 3. (Both Navies agree to a total tonnage cap of 4,000 tons on armed vessels over 200 tons). The South African government included the RTS 410, ex-Parana, now used for gunnery training as part of the overall warship tonnage allotment. After two months of exchanges of diplomatic notes finally a conference was arranged to settle the dispute.

One the first day of the conference the SAE delegation, led by Walter Durheim, handed over a copy of their demands for compliance. Walter Durheim across the small hall spoke, “You have your copy of our government's demands. You see for us the issue is two-fold. The total tonnage operated by Argentine Brigada IV is too large even excluding the construction of the new Project 617 gunboat. The new vessel’s construction and potential operation is clearly in violation of the treaty. We wish to hear your proposals for dealing with this situation.”

The head of the Argentine delegation, Senor Michelangelo Cervantes, a civil servant attached to the Navy Department of the Ministry of Defence quickly conferred with his naval representative, Capitan de Navio Judge Advocate Fanta, and when he nodded he laid out a series of options. “We have considered the various options regarding the Project 617 vessel in question. The most feasible option is to scrap her. She is now free floating but not capable of movement under her own power and also is unarmed. Our naval architects looked at rebuilding her into a civilian vessel but found she was too far to completion with all her armour installed as to make this a very expensive task. Other options would be to transfer her flag to the Paraguayan flag, or complete the ship and sail her down the Rio Paraguay to the open sea to be rebased elsewhere along our coast. The Treaty of Valparaiso, I remind you, give us free passage.”
The SAE delegation did not spend long deliberating amongst themsleves although it was clear two of the party were not entirely happy. However, it seemed the delegation were expecting proposals along these lines. Herr Durheim cleared his throat and leant across the table, folding his arms as he did so. “Our thoughts on these options you raise are; scrapping the vessels before completion is, to our mind, the easiest way to rectify this matter. We have instructions from our government in Pretoria to accept nothing less. It is what the hawks among our politicians and military high ranks demand. If you refuse our demand then we could declare the Treaty of Valparaiso null and void, resulting either in another arms race, which neither side really wants, or which would lead to, if the hawks reached a majority backing, a declaration that a state of war again exist between our nations. We would not let your option of transfer of ownership, or sale to any other third-party, happen. To our knowledge the Paraguayan Navy no longer exists, only as a sub-unit of your Navy and therefore we dismiss your proxy proposal out of hand. We would oppose it by all necessary methods and quite likely the consequences I’ve just outlined would again be incurred. As for transferring to the open sea? The vessel is not completed yet, but we estimate given her likely state of construction, that it should be seaworthy enough to make the trip before completion and installation of the guns. The Treaty gives free navigation but one could argue this is valid only for ships legally operating the rivers, which is not the case when talking about the vessel in question. Whatever is decided over the 617, Argentina will also have to reduce the total tonnage to 4,000 tons. Our instructions are to demand return to status quo before Argentina violated the Treaty. As a result, your Navy would have to scrap three of her four Project 616 vessels too, returning your river fleet to 3,599 tons total by our calculations.”

It was a bitter pill to swallow for the Argentines and as the meeting ground on for another two hours of debate and passing of written tonnage calculations nothing was settled and finally the meeting was adjourned.

France thinks Britain or the US ought to buy the Argentine ships for the Yangtze River Patrol. Maybe, given Chosen's most recent news, they might want to start one themselves?

Stir, stir, stir the pot...

Quoted

Originally posted by Brockpaine
Maybe, given Chosen's most recent news, they might want to start one themselves?

Stir, stir, stir the pot...

Don't say this too loud, Jong-Un might hear it and he could think that would actually be a good idea.

Quoted

Originally posted by Daidalos
Don't say this too loud, Jong-Un might hear it and he could think that would actually be a good idea.

*Whispers* Okie-dokie-lokie!

Quoted

Originally posted by Brockpaine
France thinks Britain or the US ought to buy the Argentine ships for the Yangtze River Patrol. Maybe, given Chosen's most recent news, they might want to start one themselves?

Stir, stir, stir the pot...

Huh?

Quoted

Originally posted by The Rock Doctor

Quoted

Originally posted by Brockpaine
France thinks Britain or the US ought to buy the Argentine ships for the Yangtze River Patrol. Maybe, given Chosen's most recent news, they might want to start one themselves?

Stir, stir, stir the pot...

Huh?

Link.

I'm aware of the historical thing. I assumed no such thing existed in WW.

Quoted

Originally posted by The Rock Doctor
I'm aware of the historical thing. I assumed no such thing existed in WW.

There's nothing that says they do exist... and nothing that says they don't.

But it's not funny if I have to explain the joke.

January 5
After a night to sleep on the proposals, and much frantic telegraphing to Buenos Aires, Pretoria and Cordoba both sides met the following morning in the meeting hall of the Hotel. Another Naval delegate, another officer from the Navy’s Judge Advocate branch had been sent up from Bahia Blanca via express train.

The head of the Argentine delegation, Senor Michelangelo Cervantes made a brief summing up of the position. “I sure I speak for everyone when I say it has been a long night. We are meeting here under pressures from our governments. We are men of sound opinions and like-mindedness but the hawks in our governments impose almost impossible burdens upon us. I spoke with the Defence Minister this morning and he authorised me to make the following offer. We ask permission from your government to let us transfer the incomplete Project 617 gunboat to the open sea as the Treaty allows. We doubt your country would want to go to war over a single river gunboat, but of course, unofficially, we recognise that a mistake has been made in the construction of the vessel. The issue of the three 616s. We cannot countenance their scrapping at all. We instead offer to scrap the old gunboat Parana, now designated RTS-410, which is a gunnery training vessel instead to bring our fleet to 3,924 tons.”

The SAE delegation discussed the offer in low voices. One naval officer took out a folder, presumably an intelligence file on the ships of the Naval Brigada IV. Some discussion was raised on the armament of the Parana, an Argentine naval officer being asked to confirm her maintaince schedules and current sailing time. Herr Durheim drew together the strands after nearly half an hour of discussion amongst themselves. After he exchanged a few las-minute glances with his fellow delegates, summed up their agreed position. “I’m afraid we are not authorised to agree to any such terms. Our demands remain the same, scrapping of the 617 and the three 616s. Even if we were to accept the RTS-410 as a substitute scrapping for the three 616 vessels, it is impossible for our Government to accept such a breach of the Treaty, which the 617 is, to go unpunished. If you wish to save the 617 then the three 616s must be scrapped in compensation. The hawks in our government will not accept anything less. I must add that our Navy still lists the RTS-410 as an active warship and not a training ship.”

Again the meeting was in deadlock and until communications had shuttled back and forth to the respective Ministries there was little to be done and after just two hours of talk the meeting was again adjourned.

The South African demands seem completely out of proportion to the situation. It's pretty clear they're just trying to use it as an excuse to humiliate the Argentines.

I do find it interesting the South Africans are taking a hard line over a gunboat, but don't even mention a peep when some real competition comes into their neck of the woods, like the German carrier taskforce or the French battlecruisers both which have been in the South Atlantic in recent years.

The Americans have made note of the latter and plan to use it to their advantage when their own taskforce rounds the Cape of Good Hope.

Quoted

Originally posted by TheCanadian
I do find it interesting the South Africans are taking a hard line over a gunboat, but don't even mention a peep when some real competition comes into their neck of the woods, like the German carrier taskforce or the French battlecruisers both which have been in the South Atlantic in recent years..

And while I realize the Argentinians are the main focus of SAE 'interest' in South America, I find it amusing that they said nothing when Brazil went from 0 CVs to...what is it now...3 or 4 in a little over a year. Apparently 1 1,300t gunboat is a lot scarier.

Quoted

Originally posted by Sachmle

Quoted

Originally posted by TheCanadian
I do find it interesting the South Africans are taking a hard line over a gunboat, but don't even mention a peep when some real competition comes into their neck of the woods, like the German carrier taskforce or the French battlecruisers both which have been in the South Atlantic in recent years..

And while I realize the Argentinians are the main focus of SAE 'interest' in South America, I find it amusing that they said nothing when Brazil went from 0 CVs to...what is it now...3 or 4 in a little over a year. Apparently 1 1,300t gunboat is a lot scarier.

Speaking OOC, it is a case where the Argentines are in technical violation of a treaty, and the SAE is merely seeking its pound of flesh for the Argentine oversight because they have the 'legal' cover to do so.

OOC of course..the whole thread outside what Hood posted is OOC I presume.

I realize the Argies are in violation and that the SAE has every right to hold them to it, but the counter offers bring the Argies back into treaty compliance.

Quoted

Originally posted by Sachmle
OOC of course..the whole thread outside what Hood posted is OOC I presume.

I realize the Argies are in violation and that the SAE has every right to hold them to it, but the counter offers bring the Argies back into treaty compliance.

And the SAE insistance on what they want scrapped is the pound of flesh.

OOC: Colombia would love these gunboats for their own fleet, Perhaps Argentina can IC offer the ships for sale?

January 7
There was an air of expectation when the Argentine delegation came into the hall and took their seats. Capitan de Navio Judge Advocate Fanta looked quite happy and he passed a sheet of paper to Senor Cervantes. Herr Durheim could tell by looking at Captain Fanta’s eyes what he was thinking, “this will cut the Africans to size.” Cervantes handled the paper and paused, he wanted to give maximum effect to the waiting SAE delegation. He cleared his throat and began, “It seems since our initial discussions, news of our talks has leaked among the diplomatic community. We have received an offer from the Government of the United States of America to buy the 617 gunboat and complete it for their account. They have offered to pay full costs for this ship and for buying and converting the three 616 boats if we so desired. Also an informal discussion was raised by the Colombian naval attaché with me this morning on the telephone offering support and indeed I think I’m right in saying, that the our President has been discussing the matter with his Chilean counterpart. Now, yesterday we left in no agreement but our position remains the same. Either allow us permission to move the vessel or sell her to a third party. We are willing to scrap the RTS-410 to meet our tonnage obligations but if you press us on the matter we have a willing buyer and we will sell to the US.”
This move caught the South Africans off guard and they requested to be allowed to discuss the matter amongst themselves in private. Cervantes agreed to this request and the Argentine delegation left the room and sat in the anteroom outside. Ten minutes later one of the SAE delegation hurried to send a telegram. An hour later a reply arrived and the entire group reconvened. Herr Durheim made the official reply, “We do not consider the American offer to be valid. Firstly, they are not in full knowledge of all the facts of these discussions. Second, the stated aim of our government is to seek full compliance from your government to meet the agreed terms of the Treaty of Valparaiso and the only sure way to ensure that compliance is to make sure the vessels are scrapped to avoid any complications or misunderstandings between our nations at a later date. Unfortunately I am not in a position to confirm my government’s stand on the three 616 vessels.” One of the RSAN officers to his right gave Durheim a scowl and shook his head. “Our Navy would prefer the three ships to go, but some moderates in the government feel legally bound to accept your offer regarding substitution with the RTS-410, the Navy counts this as an active warship and therefore would have equal legitimacy in complying with the Treaty. As yet I have no clear instructions and we are awaiting further instructions.” Again the naval officer shook his head and whispered something into his counterpart’s ear.
Senor Cervantes nodded in agreement, “Very well. You know our proposals and we have no alternative to offer your government. Since you are awaiting further communications I think perhaps we might as well adjourn this meeting for today. Shall we meet again tomorrow, perhaps the afternoon to allow the fullest possible time for preparation?” Durheim agreed and slowly the two delegations broke up, the South Africans heading to the dining room and the Argentine’s to their own hotel across town.

Quoted

Originally posted by Hood
...and indeed I think I’m right in saying, that the our President has been discussing the matter with his Chilean counterpart.

No official statement has been made, but the Chilean government and President Vizcarra agree that the Argentines should return to compliance with the Treaty of Valparaiso as soon as possible; from their discussions with the Argentine government, it seems fairly obvious that the Argentines are fully prepared to do so. The Chilean government is confident that purchase of the 617 by the Colombian or American governments will materially resolve one of the two outstanding points, and believes the scrapping of the 610, as offered by the Argentines, will resolve the second point.

OOC clarification question: is the 610, Parana, the same design as the 616 gunboats Rosario, Patria, and Pilcomayo here? It appears from the encyclopedia that they're all of one class. I'm willing to bid 432t on it for Indochina rather than seeing it scrapped.

Washington is quite annoyed by this, and shall have to take steps to show what happens to people who annoy Washington.

Quoted

Originally posted by TheCanadian
Washington is quite annoyed by this, and shall have to take steps to show what happens to people who annoy Washington.

Is this IC or OOC?