WesWorld

Where are we going to stand on redesigns with SS v.2 of existing vessels, created under SpringStyle or SpringSharp v.1?

I just played with HEL using it and it allows for some dramatic improvements!

This is HEL as built!

Hel 5, Denmark Heavy Cruiser laid down 1923

Displacement:
12,905 t light; 13,564 t standard; 15,066 t normal; 16,207 t full load
Loading submergence 843 tons/feet

Dimensions:
666.00 ft x 74.00 ft x 23.00 ft (normal load)
203.00 m x 22.56 m x 7.01 m

Armament:
12 - 8.27" / 210 mm guns (4 Main turrets x 3 guns, 2 superfiring turrets)
12 - 5.10" / 130 mm guns (6 2nd turrets x 2 guns)
8 - 3.00" / 76 mm AA guns
24 - 0.51" / 13 mm guns
Weight of broadside 4,299 lbs / 1,950 kg
8 - 24.0" / 609.6 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
Belt 4.00" / 102 mm, upper belt 1.50" / 38 mm, ends unarmoured
Belts cover 95 % of normal area
Main turrets 4.00" / 102 mm, 2nd turrets 1.50" / 38 mm
AA gun shields 0.75" / 19 mm, Light gun shields 0.75" / 19 mm
Armour deck 1.75" / 44 mm, Conning tower 4.00" / 102 mm

Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 2 shafts, 91,317 shp / 68,123 Kw = 31.00 kts
Range 13,500nm at 12.00 kts

Complement:
679 - 883

Cost:
£3.870 million / $15.481 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 537 tons, 3.6 %
Armour: 2,722 tons, 18.1 %
Belts: 908 tons, 6.0 %, Armament: 806 tons, 5.4 %, Armour Deck: 955 tons, 6.3 %
Conning Tower: 53 tons, 0.3 %, Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
Machinery: 3,052 tons, 20.3 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 6,443 tons, 42.8 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2,161 tons, 14.3 %
Miscellaneous weights: 150 tons, 1.0 %

Metacentric height 3.8

Remarks:
Hull space for machinery, storage & compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation & workspaces is excellent
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

Estimated overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Relative margin of stability: 1.10
Shellfire needed to sink: 17,893 lbs / 8,116 Kg = 63.3 x 8.3 " / 210 mm shells
(Approx weight of penetrating shell hits needed to sink ship excluding critical hits)
Torpedoes needed to sink: 2.1
(Approx number of typical torpedo hits needed to sink ship)
Relative steadiness as gun platform: 70 %
(Average = 50 %)
Relative rocking effect from firing to beam: 0.59
Relative quality as seaboat: 1.20

Hull form characteristics:
Block coefficient: 0.465
Sharpness coefficient: 0.33
Hull speed coefficient 'M': 8.25
'Natural speed' for length: 25.81 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 52 %
Trim: 58
(Maximise stabilty/flotation = 0, Maximise steadiness/seakeeping = 100)

Estimated hull characteristics & strength:
Underwater volume absorbed by magazines and engineering spaces: 94.7 %
Relative accommodation and working space: 144.9 %
(Average = 100%)
Displacement factor: 113 %
(Displacement relative to loading factors)
Relative cross-sectional hull strength: 0.98
(Structure weight / hull surface area: 136 lbs / square foot or 666 Kg / square metre)
Relative longitudinal hull strength: 1.28
(for 20.50 ft / 6.25 m average freeboard, freeboard adjustment 4.06 ft)
Relative composite hull strength: 1.00


3 X Hansa Brandenburg W.30 (f) 2 seat recon fighters and a catapult to launch them.
Armament Layout as follows...
Main armament = A-3, B-3, X-3, Y-3
Secondary armament = 3 X twin turrets on each beam.
Torpedoes are mounted in 2 quad turrets, 1 to each beam


And this is HEL , same "light" weight, lenght, beam, and year but everything else has been played with due to the increase in "Composite Hull Strenght". And I changed to a "Transom Stern" 'cause I kind of like the look of them!!

Hel (SSv.2), Denmark Heavy Cruiser laid down 1923

Displacement:
12,905 t light; 13,626 t standard; 15,067 t normal; 16,159 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
691.96 ft / 666.00 ft x 74.00 ft x 23.00 ft (normal load)
210.91 m / 203.00 m x 22.56 m x 7.01 m

Armament:
12 - 8.27" / 210 mm guns (4x3 guns), 282.57lbs / 128.17kg shells, 1923 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
12(1 - 5.12" / 130 mm guns (6x2(3) guns), 67.03lbs / 30.41kg shells, 1923 Model
Dual purpose guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on side, all amidships
24 - 2.24" / 57.0 mm guns (12x2 guns), 5.65lbs / 2.56kg shells, 1924 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, evenly spread, 8 raised mounts
16 - 0.79" / 20.0 mm guns (8x2 guns), 0.24lbs / 0.11kg shells, 1921 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
8 - 0.79" / 20.0 mm guns (2x4 guns), 0.24lbs / 0.11kg shells, 1921 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on centreline ends, evenly spread, all raised mounts
Weight of broadside 4,739 lbs / 2,150 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 150
8 - 23.6" / 600 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 4.72" / 120 mm 375.49 ft / 114.45 m 10.33 ft / 3.15 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Upper: 2.36" / 60 mm 375.49 ft / 114.45 m 8.01 ft / 2.44 m
Main Belt covers 87 % of normal length
Main belt does not fully cover magazines and engineering spaces

- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 4.72" / 120 mm 1.97" / 50 mm 0.98" / 25 mm
2nd: 2.36" / 60 mm 0.98" / 25 mm 0.98" / 25 mm
3rd: 0.79" / 20 mm - -
4th: 0.79" / 20 mm - -
5th: 0.79" / 20 mm 0.79" / 20 mm -

- Armour deck: 2.36" / 60 mm, Conning tower: 4.72" / 120 mm

Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 2 shafts, 79,477 shp / 59,290 Kw = 31.00 kts
Range 13,500nm at 12.00 kts (Bunkerage = 2,593 tons)

Complement:
679 - 883

Cost:
£3.843 million / $15.373 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 592 tons, 3.9 %
Armour: 3,017 tons, 20.0 %
- Belts: 1,093 tons, 7.3 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 416 tons, 2.8 %
- Armour Deck: 1,446 tons, 9.6 %
- Conning Tower: 62 tons, 0.4 %
Machinery: 2,656 tons, 17.6 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 6,489 tons, 43.1 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2,162 tons, 14.4 %
Miscellaneous weights: 150 tons, 1.0 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
20,206 lbs / 9,165 Kg = 71.5 x 8.3 " / 210 mm shells or 2.3 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.15
Metacentric height 4.1 ft / 1.3 m
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 69 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.65
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.24

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise forward of midbreak
and transom stern
Block coefficient: 0.465
Length to Beam Ratio: 9.00 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 29.83 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 52 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 56
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 35.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 6.00 ft / 1.83 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 28.50 ft / 8.69 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 24.00 ft / 7.32 m
- Mid (50 %): 24.00 ft / 7.32 m (16.00 ft / 4.88 m aft of break)
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 16.00 ft / 4.88 m
- Stern: 16.00 ft / 4.88 m
- Average freeboard: 20.36 ft / 6.21 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 89.2 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 156.9 %
Waterplane Area: 33,085 Square feet or 3,074 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 114 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 133 lbs/sq ft or 650 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.97
- Longitudinal: 1.36
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

"Hel" is the lead ship in a new class of heavy cruisers for the K.D.M., giving the navy a qualitative leap in capability.
They are to form the core of cruiser squadrons for the various areas of deployment of the K.D.M.
They are also to be the first ships of the K.D.M. to carry aircraft, with hanger space to carry
3 X Hansa Brandenburg W.30 (f) 2 seat recon fighters and a catapult to launch them.
Armament Layout as follows...
Main armament = A-3, B-3, X-3, Y-3
Secondary armament = 3 X twin H/A turrets (Simmed as triples, built as twins) on each beam.
Torpedoes are mounted in 2 quad turrets, 1 to each beam

Has anyone else spotted this trait??

Well, it'll be awhile before I can get SS 2.0 , but my take is...

You can make minor changes (range, maybe speed, adding a battery lighter than the previous lightest listed) but not major changes - so Hel would have to stick to 8 x 76mm.

Just my 2¢ worth...

Heres the BC Vengeance in both Springsharp original and 2.0

Vengeance and Glory, Atlantis battlecruiser laid down 1918

Displacement:
35,473 t light; 37,282 t standard; 38,826 t normal; 39,906 t full load
Loading submergence 1,654 tons/feet

Dimensions:
820.00 ft x 101.00 ft x 28.00 ft (normal load)
249.94 m x 30.78 m x 8.53 m

Armament:
8 - 14.00" / 356 mm guns (4 Main turrets x 2 guns, 2 superfiring turrets)
16 - 5.50" / 140 mm guns
6 - 3.00" / 76 mm AA guns
14 - 1.00" / 25 mm guns
Weight of broadside 12,395 lbs / 5,622 kg

Armour:
Belt 12.00" / 305 mm, upper belt 4.00" / 102 mm, end belts 2.00" / 51 mm
Belts cover 108 % of normal area
Main turrets 12.00" / 305 mm, 2nd gun shields 4.00" / 102 mm
Armour deck 3.50" / 89 mm, Conning tower 11.00" / 279 mm
Torpedo bulkhead 1.00" / 25 mm

Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 4 shafts, 162,571 shp / 121,278 Kw = 31.00 kts
Range 7,000nm at 12.00 kts

Complement:
1,382 - 1,797

Cost:
£6.728 million / $26.913 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 1,549 tons, 4.0 %
Armour: 12,491 tons, 32.2 %
Belts: 4,540 tons, 11.7 %, Armament: 3,377 tons, 8.7 %, Armour Deck: 3,749 tons, 9.7 %
Conning Tower: 273 tons, 0.7 %, Torpedo bulkhead: 552 tons, 1.4 %
Machinery: 5,865 tons, 15.1 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 15,568 tons, 40.1 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 3,353 tons, 8.6 %
Miscellaneous weights: 0 tons, 0.0 %

Metacentric height 5.2

Remarks:
Hull space for machinery, storage & compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation & workspaces is excellent
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform

Estimated overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Relative margin of stability: 1.01
Shellfire needed to sink: 39,290 lbs / 17,822 Kg = 28.6 x 14.0 " / 356 mm shells
(Approx weight of penetrating shell hits needed to sink ship excluding critical hits)
Torpedoes needed to sink: 4.6
(Approx number of typical torpedo hits needed to sink ship)
Relative steadiness as gun platform: 70 %
(Average = 50 %)
Relative rocking effect from firing to beam: 0.61
Relative quality as seaboat: 1.08

Hull form characteristics:
Block coefficient: 0.586
Sharpness coefficient: 0.38
Hull speed coefficient 'M': 7.41
'Natural speed' for length: 28.64 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 51 %
Trim: 65
(Maximise stabilty/flotation = 0, Maximise steadiness/seakeeping = 100)

Estimated hull characteristics & strength:
Underwater volume absorbed by magazines and engineering spaces: 100.2 %
Relative accommodation and working space: 191.5 %
(Average = 100%)
Displacement factor: 106 %
(Displacement relative to loading factors)
Relative cross-sectional hull strength: 1.01
(Structure weight / hull surface area: 189 lbs / square foot or 921 Kg / square metre)
Relative longitudinal hull strength: 1.02
(for 24.00 ft / 7.32 m average freeboard, freeboard adjustment 4.14 ft)
Relative composite hull strength: 1.01


..and heres with 2.0 after some quick additions....


Vengeance and Glory, Atlantis battlecruiser laid down 1918

Displacement:
36,130 t light; 37,188 t standard; 38,826 t normal; 39,981 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
820.49 ft / 820.00 ft x 101.00 ft x 28.00 ft (normal load)
250.09 m / 249.94 m x 30.78 m x 8.53 m

Armament:
8 - 14.00" / 356 mm guns (4 mounts), 1,372.00lbs / 622.33kg shells, 1918 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts
on centreline ends, evenly spread, 3 raised guns - superfiring
16 - 5.50" / 140 mm guns in single mounts, 83.19lbs / 37.73kg shells, 1918 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mount
on side, all amidships
6 - 3.00" / 76.2 mm guns in single mounts, 13.50lbs / 6.12kg shells, 1918 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread
14 - 1.00" / 25.4 mm guns in single mounts, 0.50lbs / 0.23kg shells, 1918 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 12,395 lbs / 5,622 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 40

Armour:
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 12.0" / 305 mm 10.0" / 254 mm -
2nd: 6.00" / 152 mm 2.00" / 51 mm -

- Armour deck: 3.50" / 89 mm, Conning tower: 11.00" / 279 mm

Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 4 shafts, 162,571 shp / 121,278 Kw = 31.00 kts
Range 7,000nm at 12.00 kts (Bunkerage = 2,948 tons)

Complement:
1,382 - 1,797

Cost:
£6.774 million / $27.097 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 1,549 tons, 4.0 %
Armour: 5,288 tons, 13.6 %
- Belts: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 1,237 tons, 3.2 %
- Armour Deck: 3,778 tons, 9.7 %
- Conning Tower: 273 tons, 0.7 %
Machinery: 5,865 tons, 15.1 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 23,428 tons, 60.3 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2,696 tons, 6.9 %
Miscellaneous weights: 0 tons, 0.0 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
54,083 lbs / 24,531 Kg = 39.4 x 14.0 " / 356 mm shells or 6.9 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.33
Metacentric height 8.4 ft / 2.6 m
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.22
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.13

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has raised forecastle
Block coefficient: 0.586
Length to Beam Ratio: 8.12 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 28.64 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 51 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 62
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 1.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 28.00 ft / 8.53 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 27.00 ft / 8.23 m (24.00 ft / 7.32 m aft of break)
- Mid (80 %): 18.00 ft / 5.49 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 18.00 ft / 5.49 m
- Stern: 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
- Average freeboard: 21.83 ft / 6.65 m
Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 78.3 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 167.0 %
Waterplane Area: 58,342 Square feet or 5,420 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 132 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 289 lbs/sq ft or 1,410 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 2.00
- Longitudinal: 1.87
- Overall: 1.90
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform

Just thinking about it, I probably presented the difference the wrong way. What I was trying to point out was that HEL under the old SS has a composite hull strenght of 1.00, and under the new SS it jumps to 1.17 when simmed with the same equipment, hull size, armour etc.

As for the Sim, if the ship is built, it is built. NO changes except by means of refit, rebuild or reconstruction!!

Wes, that is a huge difference in hull strenght!!!

The average freeboard is also different, 21.8 in 2.0 and 24 in the original version. I'm not sure about the rounds per main gun being an accurate number of rounds. I set it at 40 per gun which would work out to 320 rounds carried.

Keep in mind this is just a quick tryout on the new SS, I'm not quite familiar with some of the new settings.

I am struggling to get 1.17 composite strength from Version 2.0. The below is the data from your original Hel 5 re-run in 2.0 (well 2.0.1, I cant leave well enough alone, I have improved the waterplane area calc). I can only get 1.00 by removing the Misc weight but you will get 1.00 in 2.0.

Re Transom Sterns I am not aware of any ship using these in 1923 - even if they look good. (I just saw a show on buliding the QM2 and she has a transom stern designed to look like a cruiser stern for the opposite reason ie to look like a liner of old - but this is off topic)

Hel 5, Denmark Heavy Cruiser laid down 1923

Displacement:
12,901 t light; 13,577 t standard; 15,060 t normal; 16,186 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
666.00 ft / 666.00 ft x 74.00 ft x 23.00 ft (normal load)
203.00 m / 203.00 m x 22.56 m x 7.01 m

Armament:
12 - 8.27" / 210 mm guns (4x3 guns), 282.80lbs / 128.28kg shells, 1923 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
12 - 5.10" / 130 mm guns (6x2 guns), 66.33lbs / 30.08kg shells, 1923 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on side, all amidships
8 - 3.00" / 76.2 mm guns in single mounts, 13.50lbs / 6.12kg shells, 1923 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread
24 - 0.51" / 13.0 mm guns in single mounts, 0.07lbs / 0.03kg shells, 1923 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 4,299 lbs / 1,950 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 150
8 - 24.0" / 609.6 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 4.00" / 102 mm 410.50 ft / 125.12 m 10.32 ft / 3.15 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Upper: 1.50" / 38 mm 432.90 ft / 131.95 m 8.00 ft / 2.44 m
Main Belt covers 95 % of normal length

- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 4.00" / 102 mm 4.00" / 102 mm 4.00" / 102 mm
2nd: 1.50" / 38 mm 1.50" / 38 mm 1.50" / 38 mm
3rd: 0.75" / 19 mm - -
4th: 0.75" / 19 mm - -

- Armour deck: 1.75" / 44 mm, Conning tower: 4.00" / 102 mm

Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 2 shafts, 91,288 shp / 68,101 Kw = 31.00 kts
Range 13,500nm at 12.00 kts (Bunkerage = 2,669 tons)

Complement:
679 - 883

Cost:
£3.869 million / $15.478 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 537 tons, 3.6 %
Armour: 2,793 tons, 18.5 %
- Belts: 935 tons, 6.2 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 775 tons, 5.1 %
- Armour Deck: 1,031 tons, 6.8 %
- Conning Tower: 53 tons, 0.3 %
Machinery: 3,051 tons, 20.3 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 6,520 tons, 43.3 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2,158 tons, 14.3 %
Miscellaneous weights: 0 tons, 0.0 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
18,934 lbs / 8,588 Kg = 67.0 x 8.3 " / 210 mm shells or 2.1 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.11
Metacentric height 3.9 ft / 1.2 m
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.65
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.21

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.465
Length to Beam Ratio: 9.00 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 25.81 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 52 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 58
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 20.50 ft / 6.25 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 20.50 ft / 6.25 m
- Mid (50 %): 20.50 ft / 6.25 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 20.50 ft / 6.25 m
- Stern: 20.50 ft / 6.25 m
- Average freeboard: 20.50 ft / 6.25 m
Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 93.7 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 156.3 %
Waterplane Area: 31,834 Square feet or 2,957 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 114 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 135 lbs/sq ft or 660 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.97
- Longitudinal: 1.31
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

I'll play with it again and get back to you!

I agree with Ian, transom sterns are unknown to ships larger than a DD for a very long time. Of course using such feature on a cruiser/capital ship in the 20s and early 30s does make a huge difference.

I think using transome sterns for DDs and similar ships is okay as it helps to get DDs with reasonable speeds (35+kn) which was not possible with old versions of spring* so far. Using transom sterns on larger units should be seen critical, methinks. Without it is impossible to build WesWorld-versions of the italian Cond. A-D series on one hand but on the other when used for normal cruisers the benefits seem unrealistic.

So probably a gentlemen agreement is necessary to use transom sterns for ships with speeds in excess of 34kn only?

Ian, what negative effects does a transom stern generate? If it is such an improvement over standard sterns why wasn´t it used earlier and more often?

Regarding re-designing ships with SS v2 in general I think ships already build or laid down cannot be changed. If you´re re-designing them (to give a better idea of hull form etc.) you have to stick as close to the original design as possible even if that means you end up with a much higher hull-strength. This can be fixed in the report later quite easily.

Regards,

HoOmAn

I don't think I've missed anything, and she's back to a cruiser stern, and I'm still getting 1.14!

Hel5, Denmark Heavy Cruiser laid down 1923

Displacement:
13,276 t light; 13,577 t standard; 15,060 t normal; 16,186 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
692.31 ft / 666.00 ft x 74.00 ft x 23.00 ft (normal load)
211.01 m / 203.00 m x 22.56 m x 7.01 m

Armament:
12 - 8.27" / 210 mm guns (4x3 guns), 282.57lbs / 128.17kg shells, 1923 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
12 - 5.12" / 130 mm guns (6x2 guns), 67.03lbs / 30.41kg shells, 1923 Model
Quick firing guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on side, all amidships
8 - 2.99" / 76.0 mm guns in single mounts, 13.39lbs / 6.08kg shells, 1923 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
16 - 0.51" / 13.0 mm guns (8x2 guns), 0.07lbs / 0.03kg shells, 1923 Model
Machine guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
8 - 0.51" / 13.0 mm guns (2x4 guns), 0.07lbs / 0.03kg shells, 1923 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts
on centreline ends, evenly spread, all raised mounts
Weight of broadside 4,304 lbs / 1,952 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 0
8 - 23.6" / 600 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 4.00" / 102 mm 399.01 ft / 121.62 m 10.32 ft / 3.15 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Upper: 1.50" / 38 mm 399.01 ft / 121.62 m 8.00 ft / 2.44 m
Main Belt covers 92 % of normal length

- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 4.00" / 102 mm 2.00" / 51 mm 2.00" / 51 mm
2nd: 1.50" / 38 mm 1.00" / 25 mm 1.00" / 25 mm
3rd: 0.75" / 19 mm - -
4th: 0.75" / 19 mm - -

- Armour deck: 1.75" / 44 mm, Conning tower: 4.00" / 102 mm

Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 2 shafts, 91,288 shp / 68,101 Kw = 31.00 kts
Range 13,500nm at 12.00 kts (Bunkerage = 2,669 tons)

Complement:
679 - 883

Cost:
£3.909 million / $15.636 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 538 tons, 3.6 %
Armour: 2,395 tons, 15.9 %
- Belts: 904 tons, 6.0 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 454 tons, 3.0 %
- Armour Deck: 985 tons, 6.5 %
- Conning Tower: 53 tons, 0.3 %
Machinery: 3,051 tons, 20.3 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 7,142 tons, 47.4 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,784 tons, 11.8 %
Miscellaneous weights: 150 tons, 1.0 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
18,608 lbs / 8,440 Kg = 65.9 x 8.3 " / 210 mm shells or 2.2 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.13
Metacentric height 4.0 ft / 1.2 m
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.61
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.23

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise forward of midbreak
Block coefficient: 0.465
Length to Beam Ratio: 9.00 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 25.81 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 52 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 57
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 35.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 6.00 ft / 1.83 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 29.00 ft / 8.84 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 24.40 ft / 7.44 m
- Mid (50 %): 24.00 ft / 7.32 m (16.00 ft / 4.88 m aft of break)
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 16.00 ft / 4.88 m
- Stern: 16.00 ft / 4.88 m
- Average freeboard: 20.51 ft / 6.25 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 92.2 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 144.9 %
Waterplane Area: 30,409 Square feet or 2,825 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 116 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 150 lbs/sq ft or 732 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 1.11
- Longitudinal: 1.50
- Overall: 1.14
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

Quoted

Ian, what negative effects does a transom stern generate? If it is such an improvement over standard sterns why wasn´t it used earlier and more often?

It was used earlier, around 1800 for sailing ships. It was then forgotten until used by the RN for HMS Adventure. However Adventure was a minelayer and the mines tended to backpound into the hull because of the transom stern. The RN didn't realise that transoms were only bad for minelayers, and instead scrapped them completely until HMS Vanguard. The detriment for transom sterns is that they don't work as well at lower speeds, and as such decrease range.

The 1921 design for G3 featured a transom stern.


I suggest the following rules when using SS v.2

-150 shells per main gun (as with other spring*)

-average shell weight

-transoms allowed on cruisers below 8000t and faster than 34knts(speed with transom)

-average belt length and height minimums. can be more if you want.

How about that?




Wes, for ANS Vengeance there are large problems; no belt armour, only 3 guns superfiring, main guns in turrets instead of barbettes, no barbette armour etc....

Here is a design to use as a baseline;

RM Vittorio Veneto, Italian Battleship laid down 1934

Displacement:
37,689 t light; 39,963 t standard; 42,833 t normal; 44,957 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
778.33 ft / 761.15 ft x 105.97 ft x 33.79 ft (normal load)
237.23 m / 232.00 m x 32.30 m x 10.30 m

Armament:
9 - 15.00" / 381 mm guns (3x3 guns), 1,687.50lbs / 765.44kg shells, 1934 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, majority forward, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
12 - 6.00" / 152 mm guns (4x3 guns), 108.00lbs / 48.99kg shells, 1934 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on side, evenly spread
24 - 2.56" / 65.0 mm guns (12x2 guns), 8.38lbs / 3.80kg shells, 1934 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts
12 - 1.46" / 37.0 mm guns in single mounts, 1.55lbs / 0.70kg shells, 1934 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 16,703 lbs / 7,576 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 150

Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 13.8" / 350 mm 473.75 ft / 144.40 m 13.12 ft / 4.00 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 96 % of normal length

- Torpedo Bulkhead:
1.57" / 40 mm 473.75 ft / 144.40 m 33.79 ft / 10.30 m

- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 13.8" / 350 mm 7.87" / 200 mm 11.8" / 300 mm
2nd: 2.76" / 70 mm 1.57" / 40 mm 1.97" / 50 mm
3rd: 0.79" / 20 mm - -

- Armour deck: 5.12" / 130 mm, Conning tower: 2.76" / 70 mm

Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 4 shafts, 180,000 shp / 134,280 Kw = 31.15 kts
Range 4,800nm at 20.00 kts (Bunkerage = 5,166 tons)

Complement:
1,488 - 1,935

Cost:
£18.644 million / $74.577 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 2,088 tons, 4.9 %
Armour: 13,241 tons, 30.9 %
- Belts: 3,724 tons, 8.7 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 933 tons, 2.2 %
- Armament: 3,342 tons, 7.8 %
- Armour Deck: 5,169 tons, 12.1 %
- Conning Tower: 73 tons, 0.2 %
Machinery: 5,178 tons, 12.1 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 17,082 tons, 39.9 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 5,144 tons, 12.0 %
Miscellaneous weights: 100 tons, 0.2 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
44,275 lbs / 20,083 Kg = 26.2 x 15.0 " / 381 mm shells or 5.6 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.07
Metacentric height 6.2 ft / 1.9 m
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 52 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.72
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.00

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has low quarterdeck
Block coefficient: 0.550
Length to Beam Ratio: 7.18 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 27.59 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 55 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 52
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 30.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 1.64 ft / 0.50 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 26.90 ft / 8.20 m
- Forecastle (19 %): 25.26 ft / 7.70 m
- Mid (50 %): 25.26 ft / 7.70 m
- Quarterdeck (19 %): 16.40 ft / 5.00 m (25.26 ft / 7.70 m before break)
- Stern: 16.40 ft / 5.00 m
- Average freeboard: 23.71 ft / 7.23 m
Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 95.7 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 176.5 %
Waterplane Area: 54,595 Square feet or 5,072 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 106 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 214 lbs/sq ft or 1,045 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.96
- Longitudinal: 1.45
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent

Dave, you did miss something;

Quoted

Shells per gun, main battery: 0

Quoted

- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 4.00" / 102 mm 2.00" / 51 mm 2.00" / 51 mm

2" barbette is very thin. How about 120mm/70mm/100mm?

Quoted

Originally posted by Red Admiral
I suggest the following rules when using SS v.2

-150 shells per main gun (as with other spring*)

Are you talking about conversions from old SS only? I see no reason why number of shells should be limited in general.

Quoted

-average shell weight

Once again: conversions only or in general? For the latter I disagree as I´d like to use high MV - light shell guns probably.

Quoted

-transoms allowed on cruisers below 8000t and faster than 34knts(speed with transom)

I think no conversion should have a transom stern suffenly if it is larger than a DD (2000ts). Fast light combatants should be allowed to re-design with transom sterns to gain speed (34+kn).

Regarding new designs in general I tend to agree with your proposal even though I would like to limit it to 6000ts.

Quoted

-average belt length and height minimums. can be more if you want.

I agree on this one.

Regards,

HoOmAn

Quoted

Originally posted by HoOmAn
So probably a gentlemen agreement is necessary to use transom sterns for ships with speeds in excess of 34kn only?

I think so, after playing with just HEL!!

Quoted

Ian, what negative effects does a transom stern generate? If it is such an improvement over standard sterns why wasn´t it used earlier and more often?

If I remember correctly, it has more drag at low speeds

Quoted

Regarding re-designing ships with SS v2 in general I think ships already build or laid down cannot be changed. If you´re re-designing them (to give a better idea of hull form etc.) you have to stick as close to the original design as possible even if that means you end up with a much higher hull-strength. This can be fixed in the report later quite easily.

Regards,

HoOmAn

Don't completely agree, if the ship is finished then yes I agree, no changes except through refit/rebuilding/reconstruction, but if the ship is still on the slips, some ammount of change should be allowed, to allow for developements elsewhere, which are deemed to be worth incorporating in the ship.

Quoted

Originally posted by Red Admiral
Dave, you did miss something;

Quoted

Shells per gun, main battery: 0

Quoted

- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 4.00" / 102 mm 2.00" / 51 mm 2.00" / 51 mm

2" barbette is very thin. How about 120mm/70mm/100mm?

A ship with guns but no shells.......that has got to be a classic DOH!!!!

As for the armour on the barbette, i'll raise it to 4", but the effect I'm trying to show is how much finer the calculations are on SSv2

Now with 100 shells per gun, and barbette of 4", and we are still at 1.05, so not as dramatic as i thought at first.



Hel5, Denmark Heavy Cruiser laid down 1923

Displacement:
13,026 t light; 13,577 t standard; 15,060 t normal; 16,186 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
692.31 ft / 666.00 ft x 74.00 ft x 23.00 ft (normal load)
211.01 m / 203.00 m x 22.56 m x 7.01 m

Armament:
12 - 8.27" / 210 mm guns (4x3 guns), 282.57lbs / 128.17kg shells, 1923 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
12 - 5.12" / 130 mm guns (6x2 guns), 67.03lbs / 30.41kg shells, 1923 Model
Quick firing guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on side, all amidships
8 - 2.99" / 76.0 mm guns in single mounts, 13.39lbs / 6.08kg shells, 1923 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
16 - 0.51" / 13.0 mm guns (8x2 guns), 0.07lbs / 0.03kg shells, 1923 Model
Machine guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
8 - 0.51" / 13.0 mm guns (2x4 guns), 0.07lbs / 0.03kg shells, 1923 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts
on centreline ends, evenly spread, all raised mounts
Weight of broadside 4,304 lbs / 1,952 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 100
8 - 23.6" / 600 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 4.00" / 102 mm 406.65 ft / 123.95 m 10.32 ft / 3.15 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Upper: 1.50" / 38 mm 406.65 ft / 123.95 m 8.00 ft / 2.44 m
Main Belt covers 94 % of normal length

- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 4.00" / 102 mm 2.00" / 51 mm 4.00" / 102 mm
2nd: 1.50" / 38 mm 1.00" / 25 mm 1.00" / 25 mm
3rd: 0.75" / 19 mm - -
4th: 0.75" / 19 mm - -

- Armour deck: 1.75" / 44 mm, Conning tower: 4.00" / 102 mm

Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 2 shafts, 91,288 shp / 68,101 Kw = 31.00 kts
Range 13,500nm at 12.00 kts (Bunkerage = 2,669 tons)

Complement:
679 - 883

Cost:
£3.884 million / $15.534 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 538 tons, 3.6 %
Armour: 2,591 tons, 17.2 %
- Belts: 918 tons, 6.1 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 636 tons, 4.2 %
- Armour Deck: 985 tons, 6.5 %
- Conning Tower: 53 tons, 0.3 %
Machinery: 3,051 tons, 20.3 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 6,695 tons, 44.5 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2,034 tons, 13.5 %
Miscellaneous weights: 150 tons, 1.0 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
18,085 lbs / 8,203 Kg = 64.0 x 8.3 " / 210 mm shells or 2.1 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.11
Metacentric height 3.9 ft / 1.2 m
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 71 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.63
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.22

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise forward of midbreak
Block coefficient: 0.465
Length to Beam Ratio: 9.00 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 25.81 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 52 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 58
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 35.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 6.00 ft / 1.83 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 29.00 ft / 8.84 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 24.40 ft / 7.44 m
- Mid (50 %): 24.00 ft / 7.32 m (16.00 ft / 4.88 m aft of break)
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 16.00 ft / 4.88 m
- Stern: 16.00 ft / 4.88 m
- Average freeboard: 20.51 ft / 6.25 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 93.9 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 144.9 %
Waterplane Area: 30,409 Square feet or 2,825 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 115 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 141 lbs/sq ft or 686 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 1.02
- Longitudinal: 1.36
- Overall: 1.05
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

"Hel" is the lead ship in a new class of heavy cruisers for the K.D.M., giving the navy a qualitative leap in capability.
They are to form the core of cruiser squadrons for the various areas of deployment of the K.D.M.
They are also to be the first ships of the K.D.M. to carry aircraft, with hanger space to carry
3 X Hansa Brandenburg W.30 (f) 2 seat recon fighters and a catapult to launch them.
Armament Layout as follows...
Main armament = A-3, B-3, X-3, Y-3
Secondary armament = 3 X twin turrets on each beam.
Torpedoes are mounted in 2 quad turrets, 1 to each beam

Quoted

Originally posted by Commodore Green
Don't completely agree, if the ship is finished then yes I agree, no changes except through refit/rebuilding/reconstruction, but if the ship is still on the slips, some ammount of change should be allowed, to allow for developements elsewhere, which are deemed to be worth incorporating in the ship.

See Point 2.2.5 of our infrastructure rules or ask Wes about his redesigned CVs.

Even more easier: Use SSv2 for designs 1925+ only. All old designs are kept in their current form.

Good idea!!

Quoted

It was used earlier, around 1800 for sailing ships.

No quite - The transom stern on a sailing ships was only above the water. They had rounded exits like a cruiser stern below the water - similar to many merchant ships today where the transom stern is only above the water.

Ian