WesWorld

Aside from the armored cruiser Constitution and the carrier Libertad, battlewagons aren't making it into the Chilean naval budgets at present. That might change if Chile receives significant incentive, but I am putting together a few (hundred) battleship designs.

Currently I'm off on an all-forward kick, and my designs are looking very French... Dunkerque and Richelieu-inspired, mainly.

The idea is to replace the old Latorres and the Valparaiso with a pair of fast battleships of no less than 29 knots, and armed with the Chilean 15"/L51 gun. This 31-knot ship is at the expensive end of the scale, but fits all my requirements. Is she a world-killer? No - and she's not intended to be. But she can beat any of the old dreadnoughts still wandering around (the Peruvian ones, for instance) and she can beat pretty much every battlecruiser afloat at present.

Quoted

[SIZE=3]Almirante Latorre, Chilean Battleship laid down 1940[/SIZE]

Displacement:
40,440 t light; 42,308 t standard; 46,575 t normal; 49,989 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
822.75 ft / 803.81 ft x 104.99 ft (Bulges 109.91 ft) x 30.02 ft (normal load)
250.77 m / 245.00 m x 32.00 m (Bulges 33.50 m) x 9.15 m

Armament:
8 - 15.00" / 381 mm guns (2x4 guns), 1,699.76lbs / 771.00kg shells, 1940 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline, all forward, 1 raised mount - superfiring
20 - 5.12" / 130 mm guns (10x2 guns), 67.03lbs / 30.41kg shells, 1940 Model
Dual purpose guns in deck mounts with hoists
on centreline, all aft, 4 raised mounts - superfiring
36 - 1.57" / 40.0 mm guns (8 mounts), 1.95lbs / 0.89kg shells, 1940 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
Weight of broadside 15,009 lbs / 6,808 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 110

Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 15.0" / 380 mm 522.47 ft / 159.25 m 13.12 ft / 4.00 m
Ends: 4.33" / 110 mm 281.30 ft / 85.74 m 13.12 ft / 4.00 m
Main Belt covers 100 % of normal length

- Torpedo Bulkhead and Bulges:
2.36" / 60 mm 522.47 ft / 159.25 m 28.48 ft / 8.68 m

- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 17.7" / 450 mm 9.84" / 250 mm 13.8" / 350 mm
2nd: 1.18" / 30 mm 0.79" / 20 mm 0.79" / 20 mm
3rd: 0.39" / 10 mm - -

- Armour deck: 5.71" / 145 mm, Conning tower: 17.72" / 450 mm

Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 4 shafts, 162,305 shp / 121,079 Kw = 31.00 kts
Range 15,000nm at 15.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 7,681 tons

Complement:
1,584 - 2,060

Cost:
£21.532 million / $86.127 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 1,864 tons, 4.0 %
Armour: 16,210 tons, 34.8 %
- Belts: 4,997 tons, 10.7 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 1,300 tons, 2.8 %
- Armament: 2,529 tons, 5.4 %
- Armour Deck: 6,889 tons, 14.8 %
- Conning Tower: 494 tons, 1.1 %
Machinery: 4,340 tons, 9.3 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 17,777 tons, 38.2 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 6,135 tons, 13.2 %
Miscellaneous weights: 250 tons, 0.5 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
78,360 lbs / 35,543 Kg = 46.4 x 15.0 " / 381 mm shells or 13.2 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.14
Metacentric height 6.9 ft / 2.1 m
Roll period: 17.6 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 61 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.51
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.06

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
and transom stern
Block coefficient: 0.615
Length to Beam Ratio: 7.31 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 32.77 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 54 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 57
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 30.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 32.81 ft / 10.00 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 23.79 ft / 7.25 m
- Mid (50 %): 23.79 ft / 7.25 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 23.79 ft / 7.25 m
- Stern: 23.79 ft / 7.25 m
- Average freeboard: 24.51 ft / 7.47 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 76.4 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 186.6 %
Waterplane Area: 65,232 Square feet or 6,060 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 116 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 199 lbs/sq ft or 972 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.97
- Longitudinal: 1.28
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent

So; opinions? Keep in mind that this is one of... well, quite a large number of designs, ranging from 340mm-gunned heavy BCs to 29-knot battlewagons.

The light weight of the 38cm shell is problematic, resulting in poor penetration at long range (as the projectile loses velocity more rapidly than a heavier projectile of the same bore size).

The layout of the 13cm battery should be corrected, they're not (at least in the picture) all on the centerline, etc.

Given how rough some of the waters off Chile are, I would like a good seaboat rating, but that's me.

Other than that, looks solid.

Quoted

Originally posted by Hrolf Hakonson
The light weight of the 38cm shell is problematic, resulting in poor penetration at long range (as the projectile loses velocity more rapidly than a heavier projectile of the same bore size).

Unfortunately, I'm stuck with that, as Ithekro indicated the Chilean 15"/L51 gun has a 771kg shell. Is it possible to up that to say, 950kg?

Quoted

Originally posted by Hrolf Hakonson
The layout of the 13cm battery should be corrected, they're not (at least in the picture) all on the centerline, etc.

Ah, yes, true. Some of those guns are on the centerline - others are not.

Quoted

Originally posted by Hrolf Hakonson
Given how rough some of the waters off Chile are, I would like a good seaboat rating, but that's me.

Would it be worth dropping a bit of belt armor for?

Quoted

Originally posted by Brockpaine

Quoted

Originally posted by Hrolf Hakonson
The light weight of the 38cm shell is problematic, resulting in poor penetration at long range (as the projectile loses velocity more rapidly than a heavier projectile of the same bore size).

Unfortunately, I'm stuck with that, as Ithekro indicated the Chilean 15"/L51 gun has a 771kg shell. Is it possible to up that to say, 950kg?

950 is probably pushing it, but anywhere from 800-900 is certainly within the realm of the possible. Ships that haven't been built can use heavier shells, it's refitted ships that can have problems if their ammunition systems are sized for shorter projectiles.

Quoted

Quoted

Originally posted by Hrolf Hakonson
The layout of the 13cm battery should be corrected, they're not (at least in the picture) all on the centerline, etc.

Ah, yes, true. Some of those guns are on the centerline - others are not.

Quoted

Originally posted by Hrolf Hakonson
Given how rough some of the waters off Chile are, I would like a good seaboat rating, but that's me.

Would it be worth dropping a bit of belt armor for?

I would probably look at it, yes.

Quoted

[SIZE=3]Almirante Latorre, Chilean Battleship laid down 1940[/SIZE]

Displacement:
40,379 t light; 42,332 t standard; 46,601 t normal; 50,016 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
822.75 ft / 803.81 ft x 104.99 ft (Bulges 109.91 ft) x 30.02 ft (normal load)
250.77 m / 245.00 m x 32.00 m (Bulges 33.50 m) x 9.15 m

Armament:
8 - 15.00" / 381 mm guns (2x4 guns), 1,873.93lbs / 850.00kg shells, 1940 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline, all forward, 1 raised mount - superfiring
20 - 5.12" / 130 mm guns (10x2 guns), 67.03lbs / 30.40kg shells, 1940 Model
Dual purpose guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, evenly spread, 4 raised mounts
36 - 1.57" / 40.0 mm guns (8 mounts), 1.95lbs / 0.88kg shells, 1940 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
Weight of broadside 16,402 lbs / 7,440 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 110

Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 13.4" / 340 mm 496.88 ft / 151.45 m 13.12 ft / 4.00 m
Ends: 3.54" / 90 mm 267.53 ft / 81.54 m 13.12 ft / 4.00 m
39.40 ft / 12.01 m Unarmoured ends
Main Belt covers 95 % of normal length

- Torpedo Bulkhead and Bulges:
2.36" / 60 mm 496.88 ft / 151.45 m 30.02 ft / 9.15 m

- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 17.7" / 450 mm 9.84" / 250 mm 13.8" / 350 mm
2nd: 1.18" / 30 mm 0.79" / 20 mm 0.79" / 20 mm

- Armour deck: 5.51" / 140 mm, Conning tower: 17.72" / 450 mm

Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 4 shafts, 162,387 shp / 121,141 Kw = 31.00 kts
Range 15,000nm at 15.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 7,684 tons

Complement:
1,585 - 2,061

Cost:
£21.521 million / $86.083 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 1,864 tons, 4.0 %
Armour: 15,336 tons, 32.9 %
- Belts: 4,246 tons, 9.1 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 1,304 tons, 2.8 %
- Armament: 2,639 tons, 5.7 %
- Armour Deck: 6,654 tons, 14.3 %
- Conning Tower: 494 tons, 1.1 %
Machinery: 4,342 tons, 9.3 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 18,587 tons, 39.9 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 6,222 tons, 13.4 %
Miscellaneous weights: 250 tons, 0.5 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
81,092 lbs / 36,783 Kg = 48.1 x 15.0 " / 381 mm shells or 13.4 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.15
Metacentric height 6.9 ft / 2.1 m
Roll period: 17.5 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 61 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.59
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.12

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
and transom stern
Block coefficient: 0.615
Length to Beam Ratio: 7.31 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 32.77 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 54 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 54
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 30.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 32.81 ft / 10.00 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 25.43 ft / 7.75 m
- Mid (50 %): 25.43 ft / 7.75 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 25.43 ft / 7.75 m
- Stern: 25.43 ft / 7.75 m
- Average freeboard: 26.02 ft / 7.93 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 76.6 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 199.4 %
Waterplane Area: 65,253 Square feet or 6,062 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 119 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 206 lbs/sq ft or 1,004 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.96
- Longitudinal: 1.41
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent

Wasn't able to raise seakeeping much more than that...

Oh, you can (see the Viencente de Mayos), but you'd probably have to go to a hull form that's a bit longer in relation to the beam and has a lower Cb.

Can you fit triple 17" guns on it?

Quoted

Originally posted by Desertfox
Can you fit triple 15" guns on it?

On the Almirante, or on the Viencente de Mayo?

...err I meant 17" guns.

Quoted

Originally posted by Desertfox
...err I meant 17" guns.

Had to lower the range, and I don't know what shell weight to use.

Almirante Latorre, Chilean Battleship laid down 1940

Displacement:
40,798 t light; 42,736 t standard; 46,601 t normal; 49,693 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
822.75 ft / 803.81 ft x 104.99 ft (Bulges 109.91 ft) x 30.02 ft (normal load)
250.77 m / 245.00 m x 32.00 m (Bulges 33.50 m) x 9.15 m

Armament:
6 - 17.00" / 432 mm guns (2x3 guns), 2,456.50lbs / 1,114.25kg shells, 1940 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline, all forward, 1 raised mount - superfiring
20 - 5.12" / 130 mm guns (10x2 guns), 67.03lbs / 30.40kg shells, 1940 Model
Dual purpose guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, evenly spread, 4 raised mounts
36 - 1.57" / 40.0 mm guns (8 mounts), 1.95lbs / 0.88kg shells, 1940 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
Weight of broadside 16,150 lbs / 7,325 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 110

Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 13.4" / 340 mm 496.88 ft / 151.45 m 13.12 ft / 4.00 m
Ends: 3.54" / 90 mm 267.53 ft / 81.54 m 13.12 ft / 4.00 m
39.40 ft / 12.01 m Unarmoured ends
Main Belt covers 95 % of normal length

- Torpedo Bulkhead and Bulges:
2.36" / 60 mm 496.88 ft / 151.45 m 30.02 ft / 9.15 m

- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 17.7" / 450 mm 9.84" / 250 mm 13.8" / 350 mm
2nd: 1.18" / 30 mm 0.79" / 20 mm 0.79" / 20 mm

- Armour deck: 5.51" / 140 mm, Conning tower: 17.72" / 450 mm

Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 4 shafts, 162,387 shp / 121,141 Kw = 31.00 kts
Range 13,500nm at 15.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 6,958 tons

Complement:
1,585 - 2,061

Cost:
£22.389 million / $89.557 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 2,019 tons, 4.3 %
Armour: 15,566 tons, 33.4 %
- Belts: 4,246 tons, 9.1 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 1,304 tons, 2.8 %
- Armament: 2,869 tons, 6.2 %
- Armour Deck: 6,654 tons, 14.3 %
- Conning Tower: 494 tons, 1.1 %
Machinery: 4,342 tons, 9.3 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 18,621 tons, 40.0 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 5,803 tons, 12.5 %
Miscellaneous weights: 250 tons, 0.5 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
77,521 lbs / 35,163 Kg = 31.6 x 17.0 " / 432 mm shells or 12.6 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.13
Metacentric height 6.7 ft / 2.1 m
Roll period: 17.8 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 60 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.59
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.11

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
and transom stern
Block coefficient: 0.615
Length to Beam Ratio: 7.31 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 32.77 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 54 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 54
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 30.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 32.81 ft / 10.00 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 25.43 ft / 7.75 m
- Mid (50 %): 25.43 ft / 7.75 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 25.43 ft / 7.75 m
- Stern: 25.43 ft / 7.75 m
- Average freeboard: 26.02 ft / 7.93 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 79.3 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 199.4 %
Waterplane Area: 65,253 Square feet or 6,062 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 115 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 206 lbs/sq ft or 1,006 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.96
- Longitudinal: 1.40
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent

Now there's a ship to my liking. Gotta say she is the first 40k that has caught my eye. She still has too much armor and is too slow for my taste, but if Mexico had the money to build such a ship, that's the one I would build.

Quoted

Originally posted by Desertfox
Now there's a ship to my liking. Gotta say she is the first 40k that has caught my eye. She still has too much armor and is too slow for my taste, but if Mexico had the money to build such a ship, that's the one I would build.

Then try this one on for size:

Displacement:
38,073 t light; 39,994 t standard; 42,952 t normal; 45,319 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
813.95 ft / 803.81 ft x 82.02 ft (Bulges 98.43 ft) x 32.15 ft (normal load)
248.09 m / 245.00 m x 25.00 m (Bulges 30.00 m) x 9.80 m

Armament:
6 - 17.00" / 432 mm guns (2x3 guns), 2,456.50lbs / 1,114.25kg shells, 1940 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline, all forward, 1 raised mount - superfiring
20 - 5.12" / 130 mm guns (10x2 guns), 67.03lbs / 30.40kg shells, 1940 Model
Dual purpose guns in deck mounts with hoists
on centreline ends, evenly spread, 6 raised mounts - superfiring
32 - 1.57" / 40.0 mm guns (6 mounts), 1.95lbs / 0.88kg shells, 1940 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, all raised guns
8 - 1.57" / 40.0 mm guns in single mounts, 1.95lbs / 0.88kg shells, 1940 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
Weight of broadside 16,158 lbs / 7,329 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 116

Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 11.0" / 280 mm 557.74 ft / 170.00 m 13.12 ft / 4.00 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 107 % of normal length

- Torpedo Bulkhead and Bulges:
1.38" / 35 mm 557.74 ft / 170.00 m 33.14 ft / 10.10 m

- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 17.7" / 450 mm 11.8" / 300 mm 13.8" / 350 mm
2nd: 1.18" / 30 mm 0.79" / 20 mm 0.79" / 20 mm
3rd: 0.79" / 20 mm 0.39" / 10 mm -
4th: 0.79" / 20 mm 0.39" / 10 mm -

- Armour deck: 5.12" / 130 mm, Conning tower: 15.75" / 400 mm

Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 4 shafts, 192,313 shp / 143,465 Kw = 33.00 kts
Range 10,800nm at 15.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 5,326 tons

Complement:
1,491 - 1,939

Cost:
£22.494 million / $89.977 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 2,020 tons, 4.7 %
Armour: 12,719 tons, 29.6 %
- Belts: 3,343 tons, 7.8 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 942 tons, 2.2 %
- Armament: 3,300 tons, 7.7 %
- Armour Deck: 4,718 tons, 11.0 %
- Conning Tower: 416 tons, 1.0 %
Machinery: 5,142 tons, 12.0 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 17,942 tons, 41.8 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 4,879 tons, 11.4 %
Miscellaneous weights: 250 tons, 0.6 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
57,917 lbs / 26,271 Kg = 23.6 x 17.0 " / 432 mm shells or 7.6 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.09
Metacentric height 4.4 ft / 1.3 m
Roll period: 19.8 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 51 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.93
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.27

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
and transom stern
Block coefficient: 0.591
Length to Beam Ratio: 8.17 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 32.55 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 56 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 40
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 14.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 40.68 ft / 12.40 m
- Forecastle (17 %): 30.51 ft / 9.30 m
- Mid (50 %): 28.87 ft / 8.80 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 27.23 ft / 8.30 m
- Stern: 28.87 ft / 8.80 m
- Average freeboard: 29.70 ft / 9.05 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 100.0 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 183.6 %
Waterplane Area: 49,824 Square feet or 4,629 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 109 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 209 lbs/sq ft or 1,020 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.94
- Longitudinal: 1.86
- Overall: 1.01
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

Mommy! I want one!

I can actually afford such a ship, and I do have the light forces to support it. Tempting, mighty tempting...

Quoted

Originally posted by Desertfox
Mommy! I want one!

No, Mommy says you can't have one, you've been naughty, and naughty boys don't get shiny toys.

I did something like that awhile back, with the same armament, more armour, and less speed, speed costs tonnage though, my design ran around 36,000 tons light.

Stick with the 15in for Chile, I can't see the point of a 38,000 tons light ship making 33kts with only six 17in (all forward) and an 11in belt. It can't take the punishment, Mexcian ships might have to face much bigger opponents than the Chilean Navy.

For dealing with Peru's current fleet the 15in should suffice.

I agree, Peru is still the main potential advasary and 15" should suffice against their capital ships.

I don't intend to pursue the 17" gun at present: the 15"/L51 will be workable for me. If I do put anything larger out there, then it will be the FAR-standard 16.5". Only reason I posted the 17" was because DF asked about it.

The 16.5 is a decent enough weapon too, even if you use lighter shells!