WesWorld

This is a larger version of my destroyers. How does it look?

HMAS Norfolk, Australia Destroyer Leader laid down 1929

Displacement:
1,926 t light; 2,033 t standard; 2,424 t normal; 2,737 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
392.10 ft / 390.00 ft x 37.00 ft x 14.00 ft (normal load)
119.51 m / 118.87 m x 11.28 m x 4.27 m

Armament:
5 - 4.72" / 120 mm guns in single mounts, 52.58lbs / 23.85kg shells, 1929 Model
Dual purpose guns in deck mounts with hoists
on centreline ends, majority aft, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
2 - 4.72" / 120 mm guns in single mounts, 52.58lbs / 23.85kg shells, 1929 Model
Dual purpose guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, all amidships
4 - 1.57" / 40.0 mm guns (1x4 guns), 1.95lbs / 0.88kg shells, 1929 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on centreline, amidship
10 - 0.79" / 20.0 mm guns in single mounts, 0.24lbs / 0.11kg shells, 1929 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 386 lbs / 175 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 250
10 - 21.0" / 533.4 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 1.20" / 30 mm - -

Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 4 shafts, 38,742 shp / 28,902 Kw = 33.00 kts
Range 7,500nm at 15.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 704 tons

Complement:
172 - 224

Cost:
£1.050 million / $4.199 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 48 tons, 2.0 %
Armour: 16 tons, 0.7 %
- Belts: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 16 tons, 0.7 %
- Armour Deck: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Conning Tower: 0 tons, 0.0 %
Machinery: 1,103 tons, 45.5 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 734 tons, 30.3 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 498 tons, 20.5 %
Miscellaneous weights: 25 tons, 1.0 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
804 lbs / 365 Kg = 15.3 x 4.7 " / 120 mm shells or 0.4 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.33
Metacentric height 1.9 ft / 0.6 m
Roll period: 11.4 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.50
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.35

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has raised forecastle
and transom stern
Block coefficient: 0.420
Length to Beam Ratio: 10.54 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 22.68 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 64 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 52
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 5.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 24.00 ft / 7.32 m
- Forecastle (30 %): 21.90 ft / 6.68 m (15.00 ft / 4.57 m aft of break)
- Mid (50 %): 15.00 ft / 4.57 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 15.00 ft / 4.57 m
- Stern: 15.00 ft / 4.57 m
- Average freeboard: 17.32 ft / 5.28 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 164.6 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 81.1 %
Waterplane Area: 9,339 Square feet or 868 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 86 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 38 lbs/sq ft or 184 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.51
- Longitudinal: 2.26
- Overall: 0.59
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
Room for accommodation and workspaces is cramped
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

Looks pretty good, though I wouldn't think 4 shafts would be a good idea on a destroyer. The side-mounted 120mms I'm not too sure about, if it were my ship I'd be looking to centerline mount them, using twin mountings if I needed to. The 20mms should probably be listed as machineguns, unless they're not automatic. The sea-keeping and range are great, though.

Looks like a good all around design.
The layout is interesting.
I am imprest to say the least.

I'll second Hrolf's comments.

Her speeds too low for a DD, methinks.

33 knots too slow in 1929 for a British-Australian Destroyer Leader?

Yep...... My opinion of course.

Quoted

Looks pretty good, though I wouldn't think 4 shafts would be a good idea on a destroyer. The 20mms should probably be listed as machineguns, unless they're not automatic.

Got to fix that.

Quoted

Her speeds too low for a DD, methinks.

Im going for sustained speed. My DD is equivalent to the F22 vs F15.

Hell 33 knots is plenty fast but 35 is always better. Given all her 4.72" guns are single mounts thats quite abit of weight and deckspace.

Perhaps adding a 8th gun and twining the 4.72" mounts would fair better? That would trim it from 7 to 4 mounts, give you additional firepower and leave you more deck space for torpedo's and other equipment.

I'm going to sound like Hooman now...

A drawing!!!

Here is a quick and dirty picture od destroyer and destroyer leader.

Link

Looking at the pics I'd definately twin at least 2 mounts, A and Z. That would allow you to remove the wing mounts and give you more space for increased Anti-Manzo guns.

Quoted

I'm going to sound like Hooman now...

Hooman Mk. 2
:-)

Quoted

I'm going to sound like Hooman now...

Hoomen ?

Cheers,

PS. was it 34 knots minumum + transome stern some where?

PPS. Quintuble TT mounts in 1929? The Forecastle is a little long (should end level with the bridge so those wing mounts may be a bit wet.

Quoted

PS. was it 34 knots minumum + transome stern some where?

That's for ships that are not small, fast combatants, which DDs are.

Given the size of a standard bridge superstructure I doubt there is enough deckspace for wing mounts abreast the bridge on the DL. Keep in mind you do not only need deck space for the gun, it also needs to turn and a crew to handle it.

(And in general I´m not going to spend any more breath on the transom stern topic....)

I agree with Hoo on the wing mounts, space is key.

Quoted

(And in general I´m not going to spend any more breath on the transom stern topic....)

Come on Hoo, you know you want to!!!

Maybe we need to start another thread specifically on transoms and finish the debate once and for all so we can at least have an in depth set of rules...

Since there's only 3 more quarters in which the transoms are restricted, it's slightly superfluous now. ;-)

True enough, that being said it almost seems like we have a cobled togeather system to "hinder" transom use but not completely prevent some questionable designs, at least for some peoples liking.

Quoted

PPS. Quintuble TT mounts in 1929? The Forecastle is a little long (should end level with the bridge so those wing mounts may be a bit wet.

Fixed that. Longer forecastle is a design characteristic.

Quoted

Given the size of a standard bridge superstructure I doubt there is enough deckspace for wing mounts abreast the bridge on the DL. Keep in mind you do not only need deck space for the gun, it also needs to turn and a crew to handle it.

My ships is 8 ft wider than american destroyers which have wing mounts. Im also moving the mounts further back. So there should be space for them.

And for keeping the singles there are several reasons,
ROF, commonality with destroyers, and rebundancy. I simed it with twins and it actually is worse, and there is space for singles.
Also I wanted something different. An I dont like how twins and singles togheter look.

Here is a slightly improved version. With updated pic.



HMAS Norfolk, Australia Destroyer Leader laid down 1929

Displacement:
1,953 t light; 2,061 t standard; 2,477 t normal; 2,810 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
401.92 ft / 400.00 ft x 39.00 ft x 14.00 ft (normal load)
122.50 m / 121.92 m x 11.89 m x 4.27 m

Armament:
5 - 4.72" / 120 mm guns in single mounts, 52.58lbs / 23.85kg shells, 1929 Model
Dual purpose guns in deck mounts with hoists
on centreline ends, majority aft, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
2 - 4.72" / 120 mm guns in single mounts, 52.58lbs / 23.85kg shells, 1929 Model
Dual purpose guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, all amidships
8 - 1.57" / 40.0 mm guns (2x4 guns), 1.95lbs / 0.88kg shells, 1929 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on centreline, evenly spread
10 - 0.79" / 20.0 mm guns (5x2 guns), 0.24lbs / 0.11kg shells, 1929 Model
Machine guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 386 lbs / 175 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 250
8 - 21.0" / 533.4 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 1.20" / 30 mm - -

Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 4 shafts, 38,241 shp / 28,528 Kw = 33.00 kts
Range 7,900nm at 15.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 749 tons

Complement:
175 - 228

Cost:
£1.055 million / $4.220 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 48 tons, 1.9 %
Armour: 16 tons, 0.6 %
- Belts: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 16 tons, 0.6 %
- Armour Deck: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Conning Tower: 0 tons, 0.0 %
Machinery: 1,106 tons, 44.6 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 743 tons, 30.0 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 524 tons, 21.2 %
Miscellaneous weights: 40 tons, 1.6 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
865 lbs / 392 Kg = 16.4 x 4.7 " / 120 mm shells or 0.4 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.37
Metacentric height 2.1 ft / 0.6 m
Roll period: 11.3 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.41
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.33

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has raised forecastle
and transom stern
Block coefficient: 0.397
Length to Beam Ratio: 10.26 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 23.10 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 63 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 53
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 5.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 21.90 ft / 6.68 m
- Forecastle (40 %): 19.00 ft / 5.79 m (15.00 ft / 4.57 m aft of break)
- Mid (50 %): 15.00 ft / 4.57 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 15.00 ft / 4.57 m
- Stern: 15.00 ft / 4.57 m
- Average freeboard: 17.06 ft / 5.20 m
Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 162.1 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 105.0 %
Waterplane Area: 9,949 Square feet or 924 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 89 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 38 lbs/sq ft or 187 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.50
- Longitudinal: 1.93
- Overall: 0.58
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily