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1

Thursday, October 27th 2005, 11:38am

Versailles Treaty and sales

Does the WesWorld Versailles Treaty say anything about sales of ships to other countries? I know Cleito does not allow capital ships to be sold, but Germany is not (yet) a signatory......

2

Thursday, October 27th 2005, 11:44am

I don't think it does. If Germany wants to sell its ships, I think it can. But in doing so I'd be fairly sure that it waives its right to replace them there and then.

3

Thursday, October 27th 2005, 2:44pm

My recollection is that Versailles did restrict it. Couldn't quote the article or anything, but it was certainly my understanding after reading it a few times.

4

Thursday, October 27th 2005, 2:47pm

Well, if it does it does. A pity, but that's the way it goes.

5

Thursday, October 27th 2005, 2:50pm

Well, check the actual wording. Depending on what it explicitly states, it may or may not allow some nefarious plans on your part.

6

Thursday, October 27th 2005, 2:54pm

Well...

...since the Philippines acquired German ships a few years ago, obviously the WW Versailles allows their sale. ;-)

7

Thursday, October 27th 2005, 3:19pm

There is that, though I don't know if it covers capital ships. Cleito certainly makes a differentiation between capital ships and smaller units, a Cleito-member state can sell smaller units to another country, but not capital ships.

I don't know that I have any nefarious plans, really, Germany just has some older ships that it will be wanting to dispose of in one way or another. If some other country would like to buy them, that could be acceptable to Germany.

8

Thursday, October 27th 2005, 3:34pm

OK, did a little looking, the actual VT is online at Versailles Treaty.

Clause 189 says "They may not be sold or disposed of to foreign countries", "they" referring to ships/submarines/etc.

Clearly this clause, as written, is not in force in WesWorld, given the transfer of elderly cruisers to the Phillipines. Whether there's an equivalent clause in the WesWorld VT at all, and what it says, is not clear.

On the subject of replacements for ships, the VT says the following:
"Germany is forbidden to construct or acquire any warships other than those intended to replace the units in commission provided for in Article l81 of the present Treaty

The warships intended for replacement purposes as above shall not exceed the following displacement:

Armoured ships 10,000 tons

Light cruisers 6,000 tons

Destroyers 800 tons

Torpedo boats 200 tons


Except where a ship has been lost, units of the different classes shall only be replaced at the end of a period of twenty years in the case of battleships and cruisers, and fifteen years in the case of destroyers and torpedo boats, counting from the launching of the ship."

By that, if the ship to be disposed of has exceeded it's twenty year lifespan, it appears that getting rid of it would not be a bar to replacing it under the VT. If it has not exceeded that twenty year lifespan, as Markgraf and Prinz Regent Luitpold have not, they would not be eligible for replacement under the terms of the VT.

9

Thursday, October 27th 2005, 9:30pm

WW Germany

Found where the WW VT was discussed :

Quoted

So, building on these discussions, how about:

Capital Ships:

-Maximum of 6 hulls, none exceeding standard tonnage of largest existing unit (25,000 t)
-Aggregate tonnage not to exceed 120,000 t
-Maximum caliber of 12"
-Part 3/A/VI of the Cleito Treaty (replacing ships laid down before 1911) does not apply

Aircraft Carriers:

-None permitted

Cruisers:

-Maximum 12 hulls, each not exceeding 8,000 t and 5.9" guns

Coastal Defence Ships

-None permitted

Destroyers:

-Maximum 24 hulls, each not exceeding 1,500 t and 5.1" guns

Submarines:

-None permitted

Torpedo Boats:

-Maximum 24 hulls, each not exceeding 300 t

Unrestricted:

(a) Naval surface combatant vessels of 600 tons (610 metric tons) standard displacement and under; provided they have none of the following characteristics:
(1) Are designed or fitted to launch torpedoes or mines;
(2) Are designed for a speed greater than 20.0 kts

(b) Naval surface combatant vessels exceeding 600 tons (610 metric tons), but not exceeding 2,000 tons (2,032 metric tons) standard displacement, provided they have none of the following characteristics:
(1) Mount a gun above 5.1 inch (130 mm) calibre;
(2) Mount more than eight guns above 3 inch (76 mm) calibre;
(3) Are designed or fitted to launch torpedoes or mines;
(4) Are designed for a speed greater than 20 knots.
(5) Are fitted to receive aircraft on board from the air.

(c) Naval surface vessels not specifically built as fighting ships which are employed on fleet duties or as troop transports or in some other way than as fighting ships, provided they have none of the following characteristics:
(1) Mount a gun above 5.9 inch (153 mm) calibre;
(2) Mount more than four guns above 3 inch (76 mm) calibre;
(3) Are designed or fitted to launch torpedoes; (4) Are designed for a speed greater than 20 knots;
(5) Are protected by armour plate on the hull;
(6) Are designed or fitted to launch mines;
(7) Are fitted to receive aircraft on board from the air;
(8) Mount more than one aircraft-launching apparatus on the centre line; or two, one on each broadside;
(9) If fitted with any means of launching aircraft into the air, are designed or adapted to operate at sea more than ten aircraft.

(Bearing in mind that for now, Germany can't operate naval air forces anyway).

Replacement

Dates and rules for the replacement of ships is as indicated in the Cleito Treaty.


I think, in addition, that all mines are currently barred to Germany.


Also, while the sale of ships by Germany may be OK, the sale of large-calibre guns (larger than 5.9") is questionable.

Finally, the CT currently bans the sale, transfer etc. of all restricted ships, not just Capital Ships* :

Quoted


The present Treaty provides for the disposal of vessels of war in the
following ways:

(i) By scrapping (sinking or breaking up);
(ii) By converting the vessel to a hulk;
(iii) By converting the vessel to target use exclusively;
(iv) By retaining the vessel exclusively for experimental purposes;
(v) By retaining the vessel exclusively for training purposes.

The present Treaty does not provide for disposal by way of sale to
another Contracting Power or to a non-Contracting Power.


(It could also be interpreted as banning the sale of any naval vessels, but given several transactions that doesn't appear to be the case)


(* Do not ask how the Italian sale of a CL and 4 DD to the Philippines slipped through. ;-) )

10

Thursday, October 27th 2005, 11:18pm

Quoted

Also, while the sale of ships by Germany may be OK, the sale of large-calibre guns (larger than 5.9") is questionable.

Finally, the CT currently bans the sale, transfer etc. of all restricted ships, not just Capital Ships* :


Where do you get that interpretation? I'm not seeing it, myself.

The likely candidates for the sale I had in mind are not Cleito signatories, so the CT restriction on that doesn't necessarily have any impact.

11

Thursday, October 27th 2005, 11:58pm

As the only ships Germany is allowed to have that mount anything over 5.9 inch guns (150mm) are the six battleships, that would raise eyebrows for sure, though it might be legal. It might prove to be...a politically problem.

As for the other point, the CT seems fairly clear about the sale of warships to other CT powers and other nations at this time. However leasing said ships seems to be allowed as long as the vessel is still reflected on the leasing nations naval list.

12

Friday, October 28th 2005, 1:00am

Selling the predreadnoughts, as an alternative to scrapping them, shouldn't be a MAJOR political problem (though some would surely scream). Selling the newer ships might well cause some political problems, at least before their replacements are in sight, and by then it's unlikely that Germany wouldn't be bound by the CT which would prevent them from being sold.

The point about the CT limitations is that, as of now, Germany is not a signatory to the CT, so it's limitations do not apply to Germany or another non-CT signatory.

13

Friday, October 28th 2005, 1:02am

Exactly

Why do you think Chile has refused to sign the treaty.

14

Friday, October 28th 2005, 1:06am

<chuckle> Oh, I know. But given Germany's situation, the CT would be an improvement on the VT, and it's unlikely that opting out of both would be wise at this moment.

15

Friday, October 28th 2005, 7:58am

Turkey is also not a CT signatory but she does possess the Yavuz, which may need a refit soon preferably in her birthplace where they know her best!

16

Friday, October 28th 2005, 11:13am

Germany would be happy to refit the Yavuz, and I will admit that Turkey was a possible candidate for selling a ship or two to. Though not the old predreadnoughts, as Turkey already has the Yavuz, it was thought unlikely that they'd have any interest in the old ships.

17

Friday, October 28th 2005, 11:52am

Well Turkey would love to aquire German ships similar to Yavuz, it would keep my weapons standardized.

18

Friday, October 28th 2005, 12:15pm

Hmmmm. The predreadnoughts do use a 280mm main battery, and the rest of the armament would be similar, but the 280mm/40 doesn't use the same projectiles or propellant charges as the 280mm/50s that Yavuz uses and we don't have any other ships armed with 280mm weapons anymore.

19

Friday, October 28th 2005, 12:52pm

Yeah I didn't realise all the 11" BC's were kaput.

At either rate I'm sure Germany could provide Turkey with at least a few smaller vessels or naval guns, CL's and DD's are going to be needed in the future.

20

Friday, October 28th 2005, 1:55pm

Well, there were only 2 other BCs that used the 280mm/50s, Moltke and Seydlitz, so you have 1/3 of the BCs built with that gun. CLs and DDs will certainly be feasible, and of course a refit or update of Yavuz.