WesWorld

I´ve retouched a bit Red Admiral´s design, and simmed it in the new Springsharp. Hopefully a pic will be posted soon. The 15 inchers are a new 50 cal model. 2 units to be laid down in 1921.

Your thoughts?

[SIZE=3]G3[/SIZE], British Battlecruiser laid down 1921

Displacement:
37.797 t light; 40.120 t standard; 42.905 t normal; 44.962 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
814,22 ft / 810,00 ft x 106,00 ft x 31,80 ft (normal load)
248,17 m / 246,89 m x 32,31 m x 9,69 m

Armament:
6 - 15,00" / 381 mm guns (2x3 guns), 1.687,50lbs / 765,44kg shells, 1921 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline, all forward, 1 raised mount - superfiring
3 - 15,00" / 381 mm guns (1x3 guns), 1.687,50lbs / 765,44kg shells, 1921 Model
Breech loading guns in a turret (on a barbette)
on centreline amidships
12 - 6,00" / 152 mm guns (6x2 guns), 108,00lbs / 48,99kg shells, 1921 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on side, all aft, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
8 - 4,70" / 119 mm guns (4x2 guns), 51,91lbs / 23,55kg shells, 1921 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, all amidships
12 - 1,57" / 40,0 mm guns (3x4 guns), 1,95lbs / 0,88kg shells, 1921 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 16.922 lbs / 7.676 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 150

Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 14,0" / 356 mm 510,00 ft / 155,45 m 12,00 ft / 3,66 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 97 % of normal length

- Torpedo Bulkhead:
1,00" / 25 mm 510,00 ft / 155,45 m 28,00 ft / 8,53 m

- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 14,0" / 356 mm 8,00" / 203 mm 6,00" / 152 mm
2nd: 14,0" / 356 mm 8,00" / 203 mm 6,00" / 152 mm
3rd: 3,00" / 76 mm - -
4th: 1,00" / 25 mm - -
5th: 0,50" / 13 mm - -

- Armour deck: 6,00" / 152 mm, Conning tower: 10,00" / 254 mm

Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 4 shafts, 150.696 shp / 112.420 Kw = 30,00 kts
Range 8.000nm at 15,00 kts (Bunkerage = 5.013 tons)

Complement:
1.489 - 1.937

Cost:
£9,740 million / $38,958 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 2.115 tons, 4,9 %
Armour: 12.983 tons, 30,3 %
- Belts: 3.690 tons, 8,6 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 528 tons, 1,2 %
- Armament: 2.048 tons, 4,8 %
- Armour Deck: 6.451 tons, 15,0 %
- Conning Tower: 265 tons, 0,6 %
Machinery: 5.189 tons, 12,1 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 17.510 tons, 40,8 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 5.108 tons, 11,9 %
Miscellaneous weights: 0 tons, 0,0 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
46.449 lbs / 21.069 Kg = 27,5 x 15,0 " / 381 mm shells or 5,4 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,18
Metacentric height 7,5 ft / 2,3 m
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 64 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,62
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1,27

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise aft of midbreak, low quarterdeck
Block coefficient: 0,550
Length to Beam Ratio: 7,64 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 28,46 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 50 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 8,00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0,00 ft / 0,00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 30,00 ft / 9,14 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 25,00 ft / 7,62 m
- Mid (70 %): 20,00 ft / 6,10 m (30,00 ft / 9,14 m aft of break)
- Quarterdeck (20 %): 20,00 ft / 6,10 m (30,00 ft / 9,14 m before break)
- Stern: 20,00 ft / 6,10 m
- Average freeboard: 23,65 ft / 7,21 m
Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 96,0 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 176,6 %
Waterplane Area: 58.114 Square feet or 5.399 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 107 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 209 lbs/sq ft or 1.022 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0,96
- Longitudinal: 1,40
- Overall: 1,00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

Invincible and Indefatigable, right?

Is that armour historical, more than I thought BC's would carry?

Well the historical G-3's were tough customers so i'd say their armor is adequate in Gravina's version.

No misc weight for staff or floatplane facilities?

Quoted

Your thoughts?

How about..."Don't deploy them here, don't deploy them here..."

I find the barbette and CT armor a little thin, but I guess sacrifices must be made with any battlecruiser.

Quoted

"Don't deploy them here, don't deploy them here..."

Indeed. You never know what might happen should HMG deploy them to China Station...

*note to self: check FINK's inventory of limpet mines*

Quoted

No misc weight for staff or floatplane facilities?

Right now I can´t find a good place to put floatplanes in the ship, perhaps a catapult over the central turret?... well, I´ll revise the design to see If I can fit something in...

Quoted

I find the barbette and CT armor a little thin, but I guess sacrifices must be made with any battlecruiser.

Yep, I had to reduce the barbette armor... there´s this other shorter version, slightly different, with a bit more of barbette armor, but also different secondaries. This one has also some misc. weight.

G3, British Battlecruiser laid down 1921

Displacement:
37.927 t light; 40.193 t standard; 43.152 t normal; 45.347 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
807,29 ft / 802,00 ft x 106,00 ft x 31,50 ft (normal load)
246,06 m / 244,45 m x 32,31 m x 9,60 m

Armament:
6 - 15,00" / 381 mm guns (2x3 guns), 1.687,50lbs / 765,44kg shells, 1921 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline, all forward, 1 raised mount - superfiring
3 - 15,00" / 381 mm guns (1x3 guns), 1.687,50lbs / 765,44kg shells, 1921 Model
Breech loading guns in a turret (on a barbette)
on centreline amidships
8 - 4,72" / 120 mm guns (4x2 guns), 52,58lbs / 23,85kg shells, 1921 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, all forward
12 - 4,72" / 120 mm guns (6x2 guns), 52,58lbs / 23,85kg shells, 1921 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, all aft, 4 raised mounts - superfiring
12 - 1,57" / 40,0 mm guns (3x4 guns), 1,95lbs / 0,88kg shells, 1921 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on centreline, all aft
Weight of broadside 16.263 lbs / 7.377 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 150

Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 14,0" / 356 mm 495,00 ft / 150,88 m 12,00 ft / 3,66 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 95 % of normal length

- Torpedo Bulkhead:
1,20" / 30 mm 540,00 ft / 164,59 m 28,00 ft / 8,53 m

- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 15,0" / 381 mm 8,00" / 203 mm 8,00" / 203 mm
2nd: 15,0" / 381 mm 8,00" / 203 mm 8,00" / 203 mm
3rd: 2,00" / 51 mm - -
4th: 2,00" / 51 mm - -
5th: 1,00" / 25 mm - -

- Armour deck: 6,00" / 152 mm, Conning tower: 12,00" / 305 mm

Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 4 shafts, 152.878 shp / 114.047 Kw = 30,00 kts
Range 8.500nm at 15,00 kts (Bunkerage = 5.327 tons)

Complement:
1.496 - 1.946

Cost:
£9,601 million / $38,406 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 2.033 tons, 4,7 %
Armour: 13.242 tons, 30,7 %
- Belts: 3.603 tons, 8,3 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 671 tons, 1,6 %
- Armament: 2.161 tons, 5,0 %
- Armour Deck: 6.487 tons, 15,0 %
- Conning Tower: 320 tons, 0,7 %
Machinery: 5.264 tons, 12,2 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 17.237 tons, 39,9 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 5.225 tons, 12,1 %
Miscellaneous weights: 150 tons, 0,3 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
46.953 lbs / 21.298 Kg = 27,8 x 15,0 " / 381 mm shells or 5,7 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,19
Metacentric height 7,5 ft / 2,3 m
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 62 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,56
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1,23

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise aft of midbreak, low quarterdeck
Block coefficient: 0,564
Length to Beam Ratio: 7,57 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 28,32 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 51 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 10,00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0,00 ft / 0,00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 30,00 ft / 9,14 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 26,00 ft / 7,92 m
- Mid (70 %): 18,00 ft / 5,49 m (26,00 ft / 7,92 m aft of break)
- Quarterdeck (10 %): 18,00 ft / 5,49 m (26,00 ft / 7,92 m before break)
- Stern: 18,00 ft / 5,49 m
- Average freeboard: 23,52 ft / 7,17 m
Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 94,9 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 172,2 %
Waterplane Area: 58.443 Square feet or 5.430 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 107 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 206 lbs/sq ft or 1.008 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0,96
- Longitudinal: 1,38
- Overall: 1,00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

I agree you need some misc weight, but I think the 6" secondaries are more realistic.

And I still think the G3 design is uglier than the Nelsons... :-0

I agree, the 6"ers are the way to go. The British have enough other ships to carry a plane - they don´t really need to put some in their BCs.

A few points;

Sim the main battery as 9x15" guns grouped forward just in the 1st battery section. The 2nd Battery carries more shells per gun. i.e. simming the ship with only 1st battery and not 1+2 will give you more hull strength to play with. Using only 90-100rpmg will help as well.

Here was my idea after some playing and reading.




That midships turrets was in a fairly crap location. Moving it forwards groups the magazines together, and removes the shell trap that was the 6" battery under the bridge.

9x15" and a 6 inch deck going 30 knots. One tough customer.

How are you planning to deal with the 1930s, replacing the KGVs, R's, and Queen Elizabeths, with over 30 percent of your Treaty capital ship tonnage invested in 5 BCs? Will you try to maintain your allowed 20 capital ships, or go for fewer ships with high individual capability?

Well, I like the original configuration better than a NELSON-style layout and if one goes with the midship turret Gravina´s way of simming it is a good one.

RA wrote:

"The 2nd Battery carries more shells per gun."

Can you specify? How many shells?

Thanks,

HoOmAn

Quoted

and a 6 inch deck

Isn't the deck still an average in SS 2.0.1?

Yes, it is an average, the historical G3 had (from Warships1.com):

8" (203mm) on the flat part of the deck
9" (228mm) angled @ 21 degrees to the horizontal, to the point where it met the armor belt
1" (25mm) deck level above the main armour to act as a 'burster deck'

So, I guess mine goes along the same lines.

So it was a beefed up version of Hood's protective scheme?

As far as I know G3 was not just a beefed up version, but a vast improvement over the Hood design, in size, armor, firepower and many other aspects, incorporating many lessons from the great war.

I think I´ll stick to the next version of the G3, I know the all gun forward grouped ship might have more advantages... but I like this one:



G3, British Battlecruiser laid down 1921

Displacement:
37.721 t light; 40.040 t standard; 42.694 t normal; 44.646 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
811,29 ft / 806,00 ft x 106,00 ft x 31,80 ft (normal load)
247,28 m / 245,67 m x 32,31 m x 9,69 m

Armament:
6 - 15,00" / 381 mm guns (2x3 guns), 1.687,50lbs / 765,44kg shells, 1921 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline, all forward, 1 raised mount - superfiring
3 - 15,00" / 381 mm guns (1x3 guns), 1.687,50lbs / 765,44kg shells, 1921 Model
Breech loading guns in a turret (on a barbette)
on centreline amidships
12 - 6,00" / 152 mm guns (6x2 guns), 108,00lbs / 48,99kg shells, 1921 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, all aft, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
8 - 4,72" / 120 mm guns (4x2 guns), 52,58lbs / 23,85kg shells, 1921 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, all amidships
12 - 1,57" / 40,0 mm guns (3x4 guns), 1,95lbs / 0,88kg shells, 1921 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 16.928 lbs / 7.678 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 150

Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 14,0" / 356 mm 475,00 ft / 144,78 m 12,00 ft / 3,66 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 91 % of normal length

- Torpedo Bulkhead:
1,00" / 25 mm 480,00 ft / 146,30 m 28,00 ft / 8,53 m

- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 14,0" / 356 mm 8,00" / 203 mm 7,00" / 178 mm
2nd: 14,0" / 356 mm 8,00" / 203 mm 7,00" / 178 mm
3rd: 3,00" / 76 mm - -
4th: 1,00" / 25 mm - -
5th: 0,50" / 13 mm - -

- Armour deck: 6,00" / 152 mm, Conning tower: 10,00" / 254 mm

Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 4 shafts, 131.026 shp / 97.745 Kw = 30,00 kts
Range 8.000nm at 15,00 kts (Bunkerage = 4.776 tons)

Complement:
1.484 - 1.930

Cost:
£9,493 million / $37,971 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 2.116 tons, 5,0 %
Armour: 13.234 tons, 31,0 %
- Belts: 3.485 tons, 8,2 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 497 tons, 1,2 %
- Armament: 2.097 tons, 4,9 %
- Armour Deck: 6.890 tons, 16,1 %
- Conning Tower: 264 tons, 0,6 %
Machinery: 4.512 tons, 10,6 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 17.759 tons, 41,6 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 4.973 tons, 11,6 %
Miscellaneous weights: 100 tons, 0,2 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
50.405 lbs / 22.863 Kg = 29,9 x 15,0 " / 381 mm shells or 6,0 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,17
Metacentric height 7,3 ft / 2,2 m
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 63 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,63
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1,26

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise aft of midbreak, low quarterdeck
and transom stern
Block coefficient: 0,550
Length to Beam Ratio: 7,60 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 32,93 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 51 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 10,00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0,00 ft / 0,00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 30,00 ft / 9,14 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 25,00 ft / 7,62 m
- Mid (70 %): 20,00 ft / 6,10 m (30,00 ft / 9,14 m aft of break)
- Quarterdeck (20 %): 20,00 ft / 6,10 m (30,00 ft / 9,14 m before break)
- Stern: 20,00 ft / 6,10 m
- Average freeboard: 23,65 ft / 7,21 m
Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 90,6 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 189,2 %
Waterplane Area: 62.075 Square feet or 5.767 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 109 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 209 lbs/sq ft or 1.018 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0,96
- Longitudinal: 1,45
- Overall: 1,00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

Well, I guess there is supposed to be a pictuer there but I do not see anything.
:-(

I know, I´m working on it... (Done)

Quoted

How are you planning to deal with the 1930s, replacing the KGVs, R's, and Queen Elizabeths, with over 30 percent of your Treaty capital ship tonnage invested in 5 BCs? Will you try to maintain your allowed 20 capital ships, or go for fewer ships with high individual capability?

Well... I have not considered too much the future development. by the 30´s the R´s will be much more obsolete in Weswolrd than in our timeline, so I guess the logical option would be scrap them (maybe reusing their mounts) and build a number of new faster BBs.

The Queen Elizabeths surely will be rebuilt in the mid thirties, improving speed (maybe) secondaries and protection if posible.

I don´t think I´ll be able to keep the 20 capital ship number unless I lay down a class of second rate BBs or cruiser killers, but time will tell. I guess in the mid 30s the RN battleline could look like this:

2 G3 (2x40000)
Hood (1x41000)
Renown-Repulse (2x33000t(aprox))
5 modernized QE (about 35000t)

(That´s about 362000t in 10 units, still 238000t left, 6 40000t units (early Vanguard-like) or 7 35000t units, in any case the RN will never have less than 16-18 BB active)