WesWorld

This topic is about what to do with the Swifture and Thriumph. There were laid down in 1902 but were rebuilt in 1920-21 for Chile when they bought them back from Britian after the Great War. (or at least that is how I see it at this time....someone else might have had them not bought by the British in the first place..but I like the idea of them having seen service in the war and being rebuilt in England)

It this case, I'm wondering what to do with them as they continue to age. What purpose could they serve, and what would need to be done to improve them next time they need a rebuilt-reconstruction-refit?

The original sim I did of these ships is below the redone 1920 version.


As rebuilt by the British before resale to Chile in 1920-1921

Constitution (ex-Coronel Bolognesi) (ex-Swiftsure)
Libertad (ex-General Baquedano) (ex-Triumph)

Chilean Pre-Dreadnought laid down 1902 (Engine 1920)

Displacement:
9,592 t light; 10,342 t standard; 11,796 t normal; 12,913 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
458.00 ft / 458.00 ft x 71.00 ft x 24.75 ft (normal load)
139.60 m / 139.60 m x 21.64 m x 7.54 m

Armament:
4 - 10.00" / 254 mm guns (2x2 guns), 500.00lbs / 226.80kg shells, 1920 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, evenly spread
14 - 7.50" / 191 mm guns in single mounts, 210.94lbs / 95.68kg shells, 1920 Model
Breech loading guns in casemate mounts
on side, evenly spread
10 guns in hull casemates - Limited use in all but light seas
15 - 4.33" / 110 mm guns in single mounts, 40.59lbs / 18.41kg shells, 1920 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, 5 raised mounts
4 guns in hull casemates - Limited use in all but light seas
4 - 3.00" / 76.2 mm guns in single mounts, 13.50lbs / 6.12kg shells, 1920 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
4 - 0.50" / 12.7 mm guns in single mounts, 0.06lbs / 0.03kg shells, 1902 Model
Machine guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
Weight of broadside 5,616 lbs / 2,547 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 150

Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 7.00" / 178 mm 347.72 ft / 105.99 m 10.11 ft / 3.08 m
Ends: 3.00" / 76 mm 110.28 ft / 33.61 m 10.11 ft / 3.08 m
Main Belt covers 117 % of normal length

- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 7.00" / 178 mm 6.00" / 152 mm 10.0" / 254 mm
2nd: 7.00" / 178 mm - -
3rd: 0.10" / 3 mm - -
4th: 0.10" / 3 mm - -
5th: 0.10" / 3 mm - -

- Armour deck: 2.52" / 64 mm, Conning tower: 10.00" / 254 mm

Machinery:
Coal and oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 2 shafts, 39,292 shp / 29,312 Kw = 24.75 kts
Range 10,500nm at 13.00 kts (Bunkerage = 2,619 tons)

Complement:
565 - 735

Cost:
£1.131 million / $4.523 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 702 tons, 6.0 %
Armour: 3,201 tons, 27.1 %
- Belts: 1,155 tons, 9.8 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 950 tons, 8.1 %
- Armour Deck: 985 tons, 8.3 %
- Conning Tower: 112 tons, 0.9 %
Machinery: 1,467 tons, 12.4 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 4,171 tons, 35.4 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2,205 tons, 18.7 %
Miscellaneous weights: 50 tons, 0.4 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
12,980 lbs / 5,888 Kg = 26.0 x 10.0 " / 254 mm shells or 2.0 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.19
Metacentric height 4.1 ft / 1.3 m
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.45
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.06

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.513
Length to Beam Ratio: 6.45 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 21.40 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 56 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 66
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 23.54 ft / 7.17 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 14.98 ft / 4.57 m
- Mid (50 %): 14.98 ft / 4.57 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 14.98 ft / 4.57 m
- Stern: 14.98 ft / 4.57 m
- Average freeboard: 15.66 ft / 4.77 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 87.4 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 106.7 %
Waterplane Area: 21,125 Square feet or 1,963 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 100 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 131 lbs/sq ft or 639 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 1.00
- Longitudinal: 2.06
- Overall: 1.07
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Constitution (ex-Coronel Bolognesi) (ex-Swiftsure)
Libertad (ex-General Baquedano) (ex-Triumph)


Chilean Pre-Dreadnought laid down 1902

Displacement:
10,273 t light; 10,981 t standard; 11,796 t normal; 12,402 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
458.00 ft / 458.00 ft x 71.00 ft x 24.75 ft (normal load)
139.60 m / 139.60 m x 21.64 m x 7.54 m

Armament:
4 - 10.00" / 254 mm guns (2x2 guns), 500.00lbs / 226.80kg shells, 1902 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, evenly spread
14 - 7.50" / 191 mm guns in single mounts, 210.94lbs / 95.68kg shells, 1902 Model
Breech loading guns in casemate mounts
on side, evenly spread
10 guns in hull casemates - Limited use in all but light seas
15 - 3.04" / 77.1 mm guns in single mounts, 14.00lbs / 6.35kg shells, 1902 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, 5 raised mounts
4 guns in hull casemates - Limited use in all but light seas
4 - 2.29" / 58.2 mm guns in single mounts, 6.00lbs / 2.72kg shells, 1902 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
4 - 0.50" / 12.7 mm guns in single mounts, 0.06lbs / 0.03kg shells, 1902 Model
Machine guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
Weight of broadside 5,187 lbs / 2,353 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 150
2 - 18.0" / 457.2 mm submerged torpedo tubes

Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 7.00" / 178 mm 347.72 ft / 105.99 m 10.11 ft / 3.08 m
Ends: 3.00" / 76 mm 110.28 ft / 33.61 m 10.11 ft / 3.08 m
Main Belt covers 117 % of normal length

- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 7.00" / 178 mm 6.00" / 152 mm 10.0" / 254 mm
2nd: 7.00" / 178 mm - -
3rd: 0.10" / 3 mm - -
4th: 0.10" / 3 mm - -
5th: 0.10" / 3 mm - -

- Armour deck: 2.52" / 64 mm, Conning tower: 10.00" / 254 mm

Machinery:
Coal fired boilers, complex reciprocating steam engines,
Direct drive, 2 shafts, 17,013 ihp / 12,692 Kw = 20.00 kts
Range 3,000nm at 13.00 kts (Bunkerage = 1,468 tons)

Complement:
565 - 735

Cost:
£1.265 million / $5.060 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 648 tons, 5.5 %
Armour: 3,200 tons, 27.1 %
- Belts: 1,155 tons, 9.8 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 948 tons, 8.0 %
- Armour Deck: 985 tons, 8.3 %
- Conning Tower: 112 tons, 0.9 %
Machinery: 2,578 tons, 21.9 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 3,797 tons, 32.2 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,523 tons, 12.9 %
Miscellaneous weights: 50 tons, 0.4 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
8,939 lbs / 4,055 Kg = 17.9 x 10.0 " / 254 mm shells or 1.4 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.36
Metacentric height 5.1 ft / 1.6 m
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 84 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.41
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.68

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.513
Length to Beam Ratio: 6.45 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 21.40 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 45 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 23.54 ft / 7.17 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 14.98 ft / 4.57 m
- Mid (50 %): 14.98 ft / 4.57 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 14.98 ft / 4.57 m
- Stern: 14.98 ft / 4.57 m
- Average freeboard: 15.66 ft / 4.77 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 116.6 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 106.7 %
Waterplane Area: 21,125 Square feet or 1,963 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 87 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 119 lbs/sq ft or 581 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.94
- Longitudinal: 1.83
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Excellent seaboat, comfortable, can fire her guns in the heaviest weather

I would replace the 7.5" battery with a dual-purpose battery, get rid of all the casement guns, standardize the battery on a single caliber main, secondary and tertiary battery (all in mounts or turrets) upgrade the machinery to all oil-fired boilers and possibly increase speed, and make other minor improvements.
The real test of what should be done with these ships is what resources does your navy need?

Well then. What would it take to reconstruct them into these?


Constitution (ex-Coronel Bolognesi) (ex-Swiftsure)
Libertad (ex-General Baquedano) (ex-Triumph)

Chilean Pre-Dreadnought laid down 1902 (Engine 1935)

Displacement:
9,492 t light; 10,107 t standard; 10,772 t normal; 11,261 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
472.12 ft / 460.00 ft x 71.00 ft (Bulges 77.00 ft) x 20.75 ft (normal load)
143.90 m / 140.21 m x 21.64 m (Bulges 23.47 m) x 6.32 m

Armament:
4 - 10.00" / 254 mm guns (2x2 guns), 500.00lbs / 226.80kg shells, 1920 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, evenly spread
4 - 10.00" / 254 mm guns in single mounts, 500.00lbs / 226.80kg shells, 1935 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on side, all amidships
12 - 4.33" / 110 mm guns in single mounts, 40.59lbs / 18.41kg shells, 1920 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, 6 raised mounts
8 - 0.50" / 12.7 mm guns (4x2 guns), 0.06lbs / 0.03kg shells, 1920 Model
Machine guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
Weight of broadside 4,488 lbs / 2,036 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 150

Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 6.00" / 152 mm 210.00 ft / 64.01 m 10.50 ft / 3.20 m
Ends: 3.00" / 76 mm 250.00 ft / 76.20 m 10.50 ft / 3.20 m
Main Belt covers 70 % of normal length

- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 6.00" / 152 mm 5.00" / 127 mm 9.00" / 229 mm
2nd: 6.00" / 152 mm 5.00" / 127 mm 9.00" / 229 mm
3rd: 1.00" / 25 mm - -

- Armour deck: 2.25" / 57 mm, Conning tower: 6.00" / 152 mm

Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 2 shafts, 33,288 shp / 24,833 Kw = 24.00 kts
Range 7,000nm at 13.00 kts (Bunkerage = 1,197 tons)

Complement:
528 - 687

Cost:
£0.936 million / $3.743 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 561 tons, 5.2 %
Armour: 2,991 tons, 27.8 %
- Belts: 919 tons, 8.5 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 1,126 tons, 10.5 %
- Armour Deck: 883 tons, 8.2 %
- Conning Tower: 63 tons, 0.6 %
Machinery: 946 tons, 8.8 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 4,994 tons, 46.4 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,281 tons, 11.9 %
Miscellaneous weights: 0 tons, 0.0 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
16,470 lbs / 7,470 Kg = 32.9 x 10.0 " / 254 mm shells or 2.8 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.06
Metacentric height 3.8 ft / 1.2 m
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.58
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.18

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.513
Length to Beam Ratio: 5.97 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 21.45 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 55 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 59
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 25.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 26.00 ft / 7.92 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
- Mid (50 %): 19.00 ft / 5.79 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 18.00 ft / 5.49 m
- Stern: 18.00 ft / 5.49 m
- Average freeboard: 19.51 ft / 5.95 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 69.5 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 145.1 %
Waterplane Area: 21,217 Square feet or 1,971 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 115 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 152 lbs/sq ft or 742 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 1.00
- Longitudinal: 2.33
- Overall: 1.09
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform

It'll take around 7,000 t of material and ~14 months of work in a class two drydock, as it'll be a reconstruction. Your end result will be similar in capability to a smaller Italian or South African CDS, but on a twenty-plus year old hull.

It would actually be more economic to scrap the PD and build a new CDS from scratch (recycling some guns if you think they're worthwhile). You'll get about 2300 t of scrap, meaning the 8,000 t CDS won't cost more than 5700 t of "new" material.

I'd personally keep the 4x10" and all but 4 of the 7.5" (still usefull in shore bombardment if your converting to a landing support ship) for a 5.1" DP secondary armament, up the speed and also add some cranes and landing craft.

Rocky is right, if you want her for the CDS role, better to scrap them and build brand spanking new purpose built ships, the Argentinians and Brazilians will likely be doing the same via Italy or any other potential export builder.

I might note here that I already have a CDS under construction by the Americans to replace the old Capitan Prat.

What I think I need is a pair of small battleships or large cruisers to patrol the sealanes of the Eastern Pacific. These older battleships are almost like armored cruisers now, save heavier armed in the secondaries department.

Land attack, might be a role for these ships, but I'd rather have them as naval combatants if possible. Or convert one into a heavy patrol vessel and the other into a training ship for the newer armored cruisers and Atlantian designed cruisers.

Eventually I am going to have to accept that I'm going to have to scrap these ships....I don't really want to as they would be nice to have in some situations. There isn't really anyone I could sell them to that could afford it and use them. That and while they will be 30 years old in 1932 hey had major work done to them in 1920-21, which should extend their lifes somewhat. I don't know how far though.