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Quoted
Originally posted by HoOmAn
I think the carrier is too large for her aircrew and wastes tonnage for speed too high. I also think her armament is too weak (number of main gun barrels) and her electronic equipment - all this radar and radar-guided fire control stuff - is too excessive for the time being (1941). In combination - tons of electronics to guide only 8 guns - the overall layout does not make sense to me. The 90mm gun lacks the range and altitude to compensate the lack of more 12cm barrels, methinks.
Quoted
Originally posted by HoOmAn
How do you calculate armored deck hang over, btw? And what is it good for?
Quoted
Originally posted by HoOmAn
Can you provide some overview how you plan to scrap 60+ DDs "pronto" and you will use the material gaines for the new building program? As I see it, it will take time (and free docks) to scrap all those units and gain the material, which than can only be spend two quarters later.
Quoted
Originally posted by HoOmAn
Why are you using 530mm torps on the Rolands but 550mm on all other designs?
Quoted
[SIZE=3]Roland, French Contre-Torpillieur laid down 1924 (Engine 1941)[/SIZE]
Displacement:
3,861 t light; 4,045 t standard; 4,843 t normal; 5,482 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
540.09 ft / 524.93 ft x 49.21 ft x 16.40 ft (normal load)
164.62 m / 160.00 m x 15.00 m x 5.00 m
Armament:
8 - 5.43" / 138 mm guns (4x2 guns), 80.19lbs / 36.37kg shells, 1940 Model
Automatic rapid fire guns in deck mounts with hoists
on centreline ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
4 - 3.54" / 90.0 mm guns in single mounts, 22.24lbs / 10.09kg shells, 1940 Model
Automatic rapid fire guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
8 - 1.57" / 40.0 mm guns (4x2 guns), 1.95lbs / 0.88kg shells, 1940 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
8 - 0.79" / 20.0 mm guns (4x2 guns), 0.24lbs / 0.11kg shells, 1924 Model
Machine guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
Weight of broadside 748 lbs / 339 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 200
8 - 21.7" / 550 mm above water torpedoes
Armour:
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 0.98" / 25 mm - 0.79" / 20 mm
2nd: 0.98" / 25 mm - 0.79" / 20 mm
3rd: 0.98" / 25 mm - -
4th: 0.98" / 25 mm - -
- Conning tower: 0.98" / 25 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 2 shafts, 62,160 shp / 46,371 Kw = 34.50 kts
Range 7,500nm at 18.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 1,437 tons
Complement:
289 - 377
Cost:
£1.419 million / $5.675 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 112 tons, 2.3 %
Armour: 39 tons, 0.8 %
- Belts: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 33 tons, 0.7 %
- Armour Deck: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Conning Tower: 6 tons, 0.1 %
Machinery: 1,643 tons, 33.9 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 1,907 tons, 39.4 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 982 tons, 20.3 %
Miscellaneous weights: 160 tons, 3.3 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
3,274 lbs / 1,485 Kg = 40.8 x 5.4 " / 138 mm shells or 0.8 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.19
Metacentric height 2.4 ft / 0.7 m
Roll period: 13.4 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.44
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.13
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise forward of midbreak
and transom stern
Block coefficient: 0.400
Length to Beam Ratio: 10.67 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 26.36 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 58 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 62
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 30.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 26.25 ft / 8.00 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 22.97 ft / 7.00 m
- Mid (50 %): 19.69 ft / 6.00 m (13.12 ft / 4.00 m aft of break)
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 13.12 ft / 4.00 m
- Stern: 13.12 ft / 4.00 m
- Average freeboard: 17.81 ft / 5.43 m
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 131.5 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 142.2 %
Waterplane Area: 16,503 Square feet or 1,533 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 111 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 69 lbs/sq ft or 338 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.76
- Longitudinal: 1.41
- Overall: 0.81
Caution: Hull subject to strain in open-sea
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
1927 tons apiece to refit with new engines.
Quoted
Originally posted by HoOmAn
I
How do you calculate armored deck hang over, btw? And what is it good for?
Quoted
Originally posted by BruceDuncan
Quoted
Originally posted by HoOmAn
I
How do you calculate armored deck hang over, btw? And what is it good for?
As to the value of the armoured roof over the hangar deck, it is in fact an armoured flight deck and helps to protect the hangar space itself from bombs, much like the OTL British carriers of the Illustrious and Indefatigable classes. I see that as being beneficial if it keeps the aircraft carrier operational.
Quoted
Originally posted by snip
Quoted
Originally posted by BruceDuncan
Quoted
Originally posted by HoOmAn
I
How do you calculate armored deck hang over, btw? And what is it good for?
As to the value of the armoured roof over the hangar deck, it is in fact an armoured flight deck and helps to protect the hangar space itself from bombs, much like the OTL British carriers of the Illustrious and Indefatigable classes. I see that as being beneficial if it keeps the aircraft carrier operational.
I would site the trouble that the Brits had with fixing said CVs after the hangers were deformed by bomb blasts as reason against it, but as we have had no experence with such a thing yet it is sort of a moot point.
Quoted
Originally posted by BruceDuncan
I am curious as to whether you envision this as a fleet tug, a rescue/salvage tug or some other specialist purpose?
Quoted
[SIZE=3]Vengeur-class, French Aircraft Carrier laid down 1941[/SIZE]
Displacement:
33,000 t light; 34,248 t standard; 39,920 t normal; 44,458 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
979.75 ft / 869.42 ft x 91.86 ft (Bulges 98.43 ft) x 29.53 ft (normal load)
298.63 m / 265.00 m x 28.00 m (Bulges 30.00 m) x 9.00 m
Armament:
8 - 4.72" / 120 mm guns (4x2 guns), 61.73lbs / 28.00kg shells, 1941 Model
Dual purpose guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, all amidships, all raised mounts - superfiring
8 - 4.72" / 120 mm guns (4x2 guns), 61.73lbs / 28.00kg shells, 1941 Model
Dual purpose guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
48 - 1.57" / 40.0 mm guns (12x4 guns), 1.95lbs / 0.88kg shells, 1941 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 1,081 lbs / 490 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 650
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 2.36" / 60 mm 590.55 ft / 180.00 m 13.12 ft / 4.00 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 104 % of normal length
- Torpedo Bulkhead and Bulges:
2.36" / 60 mm 590.55 ft / 180.00 m 29.53 ft / 9.00 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 0.98" / 25 mm 0.59" / 15 mm 0.59" / 15 mm
2nd: 0.98" / 25 mm 0.59" / 15 mm 0.59" / 15 mm
- Armour deck: 3.94" / 100 mm, Conning tower: 3.94" / 100 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines plus diesel motors,
Geared drive, 4 shafts, 198,177 shp / 147,840 Kw = 34.00 kts
Range 15,000nm at 18.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 10,210 tons
Complement:
1,411 - 1,835
Cost:
£12.281 million / $49.124 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 117 tons, 0.3 %
Armour: 6,663 tons, 16.7 %
- Belts: 762 tons, 1.9 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 1,524 tons, 3.8 %
- Armament: 39 tons, 0.1 %
- Armour Deck: 4,239 tons, 10.6 %
- Conning Tower: 99 tons, 0.2 %
Machinery: 5,237 tons, 13.1 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 12,418 tons, 31.1 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 6,920 tons, 17.3 %
Miscellaneous weights: 8,565 tons, 21.5 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
57,374 lbs / 26,024 Kg = 1,088.2 x 4.7 " / 120 mm shells or 8.9 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.11
Metacentric height 5.3 ft / 1.6 m
Roll period: 17.9 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.06
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.15
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
and transom stern
Block coefficient: 0.553
Length to Beam Ratio: 8.83 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 33.78 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 53 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 61
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 20.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 98.43 ft / 30.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 32.71 ft / 9.97 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 25.00 ft / 7.62 m
- Mid (50 %): 21.00 ft / 6.40 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 21.00 ft / 6.40 m
- Stern: 21.00 ft / 6.40 m
- Average freeboard: 23.02 ft / 7.02 m
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 89.5 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 172.2 %
Waterplane Area: 58,195 Square feet or 5,406 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 150 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 147 lbs/sq ft or 718 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 1.14
- Longitudinal: 0.96
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Breakdown of Miscellaneous Weights:
- 7056 tons for airgroup (84 planes)
- 200t Air Control Operations
- 50t air search and fire control radar
- 20t surface search radar
- 50t radar-integrated fire control
- 400t crated planes (8 @ 25 tons each) and spare parts
- 250t for flagship facilities
- 439t damage control and fire suppression systems
- 100t growth room
Airgroup:
- 32 Bloch Milan naval fighters
- 32 Breguet Epaulard bombers
- 16 Latecoeur Epaulard torpedo bomber
- 4 Dorand G.IIa+ ASW Helicopters
- Total 84 planes
Ships in Class:
- Vengeur
- Indomptable
Quoted
[SIZE=3]Châteaurenault, French transport de chalands de débarquement laid down 1941[/SIZE]
Displacement:
7,539 t light; 7,787 t standard; 9,752 t normal; 11,324 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
504.96 ft / 492.13 ft x 70.54 ft x 17.72 ft (normal load)
153.91 m / 150.00 m x 21.50 m x 5.40 m
Armament:
4 - 3.94" / 100 mm guns (2x2 guns), 35.27lbs / 16.00kg shells, 1941 Model
Dual purpose guns in deck mounts with hoists
on centreline, all forward, 1 raised mount - superfiring
16 - 1.57" / 40.0 mm guns (4x4 guns), 1.95lbs / 0.89kg shells, 1941 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts
on side, all amidships
Weight of broadside 172 lbs / 78 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 500
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 2 shafts, 6,253 shp / 4,665 Kw = 16.00 kts
Range 16,000nm at 16.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 3,537 tons
Complement:
489 - 637
Cost:
£1.874 million / $7.495 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 19 tons, 0.2 %
Machinery: 165 tons, 1.7 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 2,855 tons, 29.3 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2,213 tons, 22.7 %
Miscellaneous weights: 4,500 tons, 46.1 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
20,332 lbs / 9,222 Kg = 666.4 x 3.9 " / 100 mm shells or 3.2 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.10
Metacentric height 3.6 ft / 1.1 m
Roll period: 15.7 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.03
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.64
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has low quarterdeck
and transom stern
Block coefficient: 0.555
Length to Beam Ratio: 6.98 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 25.92 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 30 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 43
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 20.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 3.28 ft / 1.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 26.25 ft / 8.00 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 21.33 ft / 6.50 m
- Mid (50 %): 16.40 ft / 5.00 m
- Quarterdeck (30 %): 9.84 ft / 3.00 m (16.40 ft / 5.00 m before break)
- Stern: 9.84 ft / 3.00 m
- Average freeboard: 16.55 ft / 5.05 m
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 58.5 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 176.5 %
Waterplane Area: 25,343 Square feet or 2,354 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 196 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 84 lbs/sq ft or 412 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.98
- Longitudinal: 1.20
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Excellent seaboat, comfortable, can fire her guns in the heaviest weather
Notes:
- 1975.5 tons for water in well deck simmed as fuel; range is actually 8,000nm at 16 knots
- Well deck is 45m long by 15.5m wide by 2.75 meters deep, with total water weight of 1,918.125 tons
Breakdown of Miscellaneous Weights:
- 1600 tons for 800 troops
- 560 tons for tanks (16x35t tanks)
- 624 tons for vehicles (50x12t vehicles)
- 330 tons for six EDA vehicle landing craft (55t each) in aft well
- 52 tons for 4 EA infantry landing craft (13 tons each) in davits
- 150 tons for vehicle, tank, and landing craft spares.
- 100 tons for vehicle and small boat repair shop+crane
- 19 tons for high-capacity pumps (to flood or drain well deck)
- 1,000 tons for combat supplies
- 65 tons for radio-teledetection equipment and other electronics
Total: 4,500 tons
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