WesWorld

It something I worked on for some time.
I posted it on Warships project bourds but no one seamd intersted.

Its basicly bild my own fleet thing.
Its for a fictional second rate power of the interwar period.
The power did not signed any naval limitation treatys its has a sizeble colonies to protect and long shiping lines.It started bilding it strenght just after WWI

Here it go:

All ship are to be well balanced (no British eggshells armed with hammers).The armour of the ship is to be able to protect the weasle from its own main armament.Capital ships are not to be armed with torpedos as this may encorage the captains to use expensive warships in a dengerous torpedo attacks for with they are not design.
Underwater protections is an important part of capital ships design

Battleships
Six ships of tonage 35.000t as not to over tax oure industry ships are to be faster that moust naval powers men-of-war but slower that battle cruiser.
Speed in range of 24-26 kt.
Long renge is not desired as those ships will be reserved for defencive battles and not reiding opperations.
Ship are not to be armed with torpedo tobes
(Something like QE class only bild in the early 20's propably similar to Melampus class,I think of it as smaller slower Bismark)

Armourd Cruisers
Ten ships larger and better armed that treaty cruisers of other naval powers.Capeble to escape a battleship, smaller and cheaper that battlecruiser with same or slightly greater speed.
Renge is essential as those ships are to protect the shiping lines.
Size of the weasle is not to bigger that 20.000t.
Torpedo armament is to be minimal.
(Think Kruiser P with more smaler guns 8 to 12 254mm(10inches)weapons)

Cruisers
twenthy(20) ships.Size equal to other powers treaty cruisers.
those ships are to have great renge and good seakeeping.
Armed with 9 to 12 150mm(6inch)weapons.
Torpedo armament is to be equal to contemporery cruisers.
Speed is to be eqaul with contemporary cruisers.
(think brooklyn with out one turrent)

Scout Cruiser
20 ships.
Are to operate with the battleline and act as it scouts.
Are to be fast over 34kt armament, armour and renge is to be forgone for speed
Size no more that 5000t armed with up to 6 150mm(6inch) weapons
(Think De Royter or spahkruizers)

Destroyer
up to 30 ships
Armed with 3 to 6 127(5inch) torpedo armament is to be 8 or 9 TT bourdside.
Speed is to be atleast 34kt renge is not a primery issue ships are to operete with the battle line.Size no more that 2000t.
(Think Japanise destroyers)

Fragate
More 50 to 70 ships
Armed with up to 4 127mm (5inch)guns, great range ,speed above fastest marchant ships and Subs(21-23 kt).No torpedo armament.Size up to 1500t.
(Think flower class or any other DE)

Subs:
Coustal subs to operate in the homewaters.
Armament 4(small) TT.No more that 500t indispacment.

Ocean subs:
Large longe renge subs for sustaind oceanic operation are to attack tergets of oportunity.Thry main target are shiping lines.

Appendix 1.

Aircraft carriers.
Long renge are to operate with the cruiser force NOT part of the battleline.
Are to be used as scouting force for the cruisers and provide aircover for the battleline in transit.
Size no more that 20000t
Airgroup cosisting of figthers ,dive bombers and torpedo bombers.With empasis on figters.

Appendix 2
Use of air cover in naval operations.
Battleline is to opperate with air cover provided by the land based aviation.In transit aircover is to be provided by naval based aviation.
Longe reconisence is to be provided by multi engine flyingboats.
Medium range bombers are to attack enemy naval forces.
longe range twin engine figters are to provide aircover to ectended renge naval operations.In defencive battles single engine figters are the primery aircover.

Any thout or sugestions.


PSorry for any typeo's.
I was translating this from polish as i went along.
Thois not all just the base information if anyone is interested I will post the rest,More detailed tactics of each ship type there joint opreretions and how to engege such and such ship.

No intrest what so ever.hmm I geuss that i can forget about making that site.

There is likely interest, its just really quite right now.

Sorry Marek, as Ithekro said, its been really quiet lately which is the opposite situation as to when you orriginally posted this thread.

My initial thoughts.....

Too few DD's IMO given the ratio of cruisers, I'd say your better off ditching the scout cruisers and replacing them with DD's.

Also what number of CV's and BB's do you plan to operate?

six BB
CV are something that will come up in late 30's so 4 CV max.
This fleet primery goul is comerce protection so lots of cruisers
Scout cruiser mayby replace with fleet leaders as they basicly do the same stuff.
But I dont think theres to few DD's


The Fleet has 3 jobs
Defend the teritory thats is done by BB and Cruiser and Scout cruisers and coustal subs

Defende the shiping lines that is done by Fregates (DE's)
and to lesser extent cruisers

Attack enemy fleet train that is done by AC's and Subs.

Is this fleet a "Polish" fleet or some other nation, possibly fictional like say Atlantis?

A few starter questions;

Geography. Where is this Nation situated? How large? Population?

Economy? Large like GB/Japan or in between like France/Italy?

Strategic position. What enemies? What friends? What overseas possessions? Land borders with hostile nations?

Quoted

Originally posted by thesmilingassassin
Is this fleet a "Polish" fleet or some other nation, possibly fictional like say Atlantis?

You dont want to see my fictional polish navy

Geography
An island in the south pacific (New Zealand) but completly difrent history.It hold two big teritories on the oposite sides of the globe.
Economy in betwin less that france.
Population 30 milion

Strategic position isolationistic.
RN is the best bet at a enemy.


This qait advanced project with drowings fictional history that dates to 800 AD.
Im doing this with added drowings maps major battles.
Its not as advanced as Alternate Japan or FEH on Alt_naval's site but is has its potencial.
I wanted to have an opinion of before even starting my site.It will be in Polish German and English.

RN is the enemy. Side with Japan and be wary of the US.

Economy less than France, so there is no way that that program of shipbuilding is going to be afforded.

Battleships. Don't bother as there is no point. Build a few coastal defence ships with 4x15" guns and reasonable deck armour. Say 15000-20000tons. Relatively cheap. 4 should be enough if you don't have a particularly large coast.

Armoured cruisers. They aren't expendable and cost quite a bit. 10 of them is a large chunk and their presence would probably alter LNT. 8x254 and 31knts speed with huge range. 150mm belt - 50mm deck is enough.

Cruisers. Stick with the ACRs and something like Arethusa/Dido for cheapness and uniformness.

Scout cruiser. Don't build them. Don't get into a battline mentality. You will lose against US or UK or Japan. Build large more seaworthy destroyers.

Frigates. They don't need a big gun armament. Just stick one weapon on there. It is enough against submarines and other targets of opportunity.

Submarines. as many as possible. Think 100+, preferably more. Italy managed this interwar, I reckon 150 is manageable if you cut back the other stuff.

Overall. Go for something like this. 20.000tons with 24-36 aircraft, 6x240mm guns, reasonable armour and huge range. Drawn by harold over at forum marinearchiv

I wanted to post sooner but my conection was interupted

Forgeting the Battleline is not an option this is the early 20's after all.
Six fast BB's is enought of an deterent for Japan they will be fighting in there own water's the colonies are the main concern for this nation.

The ecconomy is enoght to support the naval program.
The probram is something to fight unempoyems with.
CDBB are not cost effective I nead 15 too protect the coust. coustal subs will with addition of MTB are enought.

Your proposition for a hybrid is something i personaly dont like.I was never sold for a hybrid idea.
Its a half men half dog its own best friend.lol.
In surfice combat i will be eat up by hood Renown or Kongo.
In air sea battle it dosnt have enought of an air group.
I an planing to bild aviation cruiser thou.

Sticking to ACR is a good idea ill think about it.

Scout cruiser well they are destroyers on steroids so this is an idea that Im qait fund of.

Frigates well with out cruiser one will propably want them to have at least 3 destroyer guns they wont last long but they are expendible.

Subs?bilding ACR will probly not change the world balnce of power but 100subs may by viewed as treatning for RN USN or nihon kaigun.

BB's: Four Deutchland class type vessels (with better speed) would be good with two larger BB's as the main body.

CV's: Hiryu sized carriers would be a cheap yet fairly effective design limit.

I agree with RA on the scout cruisers and AC, both are luxury's. I disagree with the hybrid idea, it makes for a ship thats not superb in either role.

Better to get many moderately powerfull ships than a handfull of bruisers

Projecting Navalism Spain 20 years in the future...

Defending the colonies will be very difficult if they are not also in the Pacific or Indian Oceans.

The battleline might be left over from the dreadnought and Great War period, so you may or may not have the ability to build the larger fast battleships. You might save costs by building battlecruisers and skimp on the armor and maybe gun size if you are looking to appear larger by building more ships. Or build small dreadnoughts (similar to what we are doing in Navalism now, but more advanced). Otherwise you'll probably have less ships. maybe three of the larger new battleships.

Armored Cruisers might do you well if you have to skimp on the battleline More or less fully armored heavy cruisers with the standard 8 - 10 x 8 inch guns should do the trick.

Otherwise you'll just have to see where you can defend your forces and who you'll likely have to engage. Chile's position has been to build in responce to Argentina, Peru, and to some extent Iberia and Brazil (mainly because Argentian and Brazil also build against each other, or the SAE though building against the SAE is not considered practical at this time).

Marek,

you probably should visit this site: http://www.geocities.com/alt_naval3/index.htm

Is this similar to what you have in mind? An alternative fleet for a power of your choice?

The above is the best site of this kind I´ve ever found - and alt_naval is part of our SIM. He can probably help you with your idea.

Quoted

Originally posted by Ithekro
Projecting Navalism Spain 20 years in the future...

Not realy by that time spain will propably a province of france.
I chose spain becose it had similar position that my made up nation(Gutekland dont lought)

Quoted

Originally posted by HoOmAn
Marek,

you probably should visit this site: http://www.geocities.com/alt_naval3/index.htm

Is this similar to what you have in mind? An alternative fleet for a power of your choice?

The above is the best site of this kind I´ve ever found - and alt_naval is part of our SIM. He can probably help you with your idea.

I am familiar with Alt_Naval work and it influence my work greatly.

The 6 to 10 ration for BB's to AC is my idea that will make the best way to use the ecconomy fully.The AC are the most expensive part of the program.I nead them to protect the shiping.
BB are defencive part forgeting them all together or wattering them down is not so appeling.

There is no point in building 6 battleships. They will be hugely outmatched by the UK, US or Japan. Essentially useless.

Set 2 main objectives;

1. Deny the Indian Ocean to the UK

2. Deny the Pacific to the US and Japan

Both things call for long range but not necessarily high speed. Your treaty cruiser is armed with 8x8" guns. Your ship should be armed with a larger weapon to combat this. 6x254mm should be adequate against CAs. A few secondary weapons as well. We'll throw in a few aircraft. 4 scouts will enable this ship to; find targets; find raiders. A strike group of 12 or more torpedo bombers will be enough to destroy a single ship. If its a merchant vessel close to gun range and sink her. If its a cruiser cripple her with torpedoes rather than risk shell hits. Build 10 or more of these vessels and don't build battleships, carriers or large cruisers.


Something like this;


Alexander Schlosser, Germany Fleuzer laid down 1938

Displacement:
19 945 t light; 20 684 t standard; 22 935 t normal; 24 735 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
740,22 ft / 718,50 ft x 75,95 ft (Bulges 81,86 ft) x 26,25 ft (normal load)
225,62 m / 219,00 m x 23,15 m (Bulges 24,95 m) x 8,00 m

Armament:
6 - 9,45" / 240 mm guns (2x3 guns), 420,00lbs / 190,51kg shells, 1938 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline, all forward
14 - 5,00" / 127 mm guns (7x2 guns), 61,00lbs / 27,67kg shells, 1938 Model
Dual purpose guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, evenly spread, 1 raised mount
16 - 1,46" / 37,0 mm guns (8x2 guns), 1,64lbs / 0,74kg shells, 1938 Model
Dual purpose guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts
30 - 0,79" / 20,0 mm guns (12 mounts), 0,32lbs / 0,15kg shells, 1938 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, 5 raised mounts
Weight of broadside 3 410 lbs / 1 547 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 140
8 - 17,7" / 450 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 7,87" / 200 mm 459,32 ft / 140,00 m 11,48 ft / 3,50 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Upper: 1,97" / 50 mm 442,91 ft / 135,00 m 11,32 ft / 3,45 m
Main Belt covers 98 % of normal length

- Torpedo Bulkhead and Bulges:
1,57" / 40 mm 492,13 ft / 150,00 m 22,15 ft / 6,75 m

- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 7,09" / 180 mm 3,54" / 90 mm 7,48" / 190 mm
2nd: 0,47" / 12 mm 0,16" / 4 mm 0,98" / 25 mm
3rd: 0,20" / 5 mm - -
4th: 0,20" / 5 mm - -

- Armour deck: 3,35" / 85 mm, Conning tower: 1,97" / 50 mm

Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines plus diesel motors,
Geared drive, 3 shafts, 116 339 shp / 86 789 Kw = 32,00 kts
Range 12 000nm at 15,00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 4 051 tons

Complement:
931 - 1 211

Cost:
£8,483 million / $33,931 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 430 tons, 1,9 %
Armour: 5 723 tons, 25,0 %
- Belts: 2 160 tons, 9,4 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 635 tons, 2,8 %
- Armament: 509 tons, 2,2 %
- Armour Deck: 2 385 tons, 10,4 %
- Conning Tower: 34 tons, 0,1 %
Machinery: 3 186 tons, 13,9 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 9 406 tons, 41,0 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2 990 tons, 13,0 %
Miscellaneous weights: 1 200 tons, 5,2 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
50 862 lbs / 23 070 Kg = 120,6 x 9,4 " / 240 mm shells or 6,8 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,21
Metacentric height 4,7 ft / 1,4 m
Roll period: 15,9 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,46
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 2,00

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise aft of midbreak, low quarterdeck
and transom stern
Block coefficient: 0,520
Length to Beam Ratio: 8,78 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 30,84 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 54 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 35
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 30,00 degrees
Stern overhang: 6,56 ft / 2,00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 26,25 ft / 8,00 m
- Forecastle (15 %): 18,04 ft / 5,50 m
- Mid (29 %): 18,86 ft / 5,75 m (38,55 ft / 11,75 m aft of break)
- Quarterdeck (5 %): 18,04 ft / 5,50 m (38,55 ft / 11,75 m before break)
- Stern: 17,22 ft / 5,25 m
- Average freeboard: 32,11 ft / 9,79 m
Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 89,7 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 256,3 %
Waterplane Area: 38 530 Square feet or 3 580 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 137 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 132 lbs/sq ft or 644 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0,89
- Longitudinal: 2,86
- Overall: 1,00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Excellent seaboat, comfortable, can fire her guns in the heaviest weather

Quoted

Originally posted by Red Admiral
There is no point in building 6 battleships. They will be hugely outmatched by the UK, US or Japan. Essentially useless.

Set 2 main objectives;

1. Deny the Indian Ocean to the UK

2. Deny the Pacific to the US and Japan

The other option is to bild BC's and carriers but in early 20's carriers were not viewed as anything other that scout's.
This country started naval expansion just after WWI.

My reasoning behind bilding hybrids is that nothing ever goes as planed hybid can run in to a BC at night and down goes an ecpensive ship.
Plus ARC are cheap.

Quoted

My reasoning behind bilding hybrids is that nothing ever goes as planed hybid can run in to a BC at night and down goes an ecpensive ship.

So what? If one of your battleships/ACRs/Carriers/Cruisers runs into a BC at night it will be sunk as well. How many battlecruisers are there? 4 RN ships, which will go down to 3 when Tiger is scrapped. The Kongos are too slow and should be scrapped or turned into training ships. There is no point in overly worrying about 3 ships. You want to be able to cause the most amount of disruption possible, and hybrids will do this for the same cost as ACRs.

Well non of my ships are to operate independetly.A hybrid is an lonewolf.


Lest think of a scenario war with UK.Year 1930

My ten ARC will hunt freely on the ocean.
Only BC can hunt them down.
And RN only has 3 if they decide to opreat them in one force the posibily egsist that my 6 fast BB will find them then RN will have a stern chase battle.
RN BC can hunt down my ARC but that will take time RN can offcores send the Battleline at my coust were there will be met by 6 fast BB and lost of Air power and subs they will propably win with heavy loses.

The real there it fast force with QE's 3kt margine is not enought.
Fast BB can escape R-type and rodney's
And they will eat up the BC(6 to 3)magrine
The USN navy is undefetable at sea ,15 BB one force,but the battle can be foght on my terms with sopport of land Air cover MTB and coustal subs.
My ACR will attack the fleet train
Japan its a decisive battle scenario reversed.
Japan will be the attacking force.
The last enemy is the netherland well they are in no position to do anything besides a comerce war.

This is my ARC name is 'bold' in latin(i think)

Audax, Gutekland Armored Cruiser laid down 1926

Displacement:
19 138 t light; 20 047 t standard; 21 156 t normal; 22 043 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
659,68 ft / 652,89 ft x 91,86 ft x 23,29 ft (normal load)
201,07 m / 199,00 m x 28,00 m x 7,10 m

Armament:
8 - 10,00" / 254 mm guns (4x2 guns), 500,00lbs / 226,80kg shells, 1926 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
12 - 5,12" / 130 mm guns (6x2 guns), 67,03lbs / 30,41kg shells, 1926 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on side, all amidships
16 - 4,13" / 105 mm guns (8x2 guns), 35,32lbs / 16,02kg shells, 1926 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
10 - 2,95" / 75,0 mm guns (4 mounts), 12,87lbs / 5,84kg shells, 1926 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
Weight of broadside 5 498 lbs / 2 494 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 150
4 - 21,0" / 533 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 7,09" / 180 mm 391,73 ft / 119,40 m 11,52 ft / 3,51 m
Ends: 2,36" / 60 mm 261,12 ft / 79,59 m 11,52 ft / 3,51 m
Upper: 4,72" / 120 mm 391,73 ft / 119,40 m 8,01 ft / 2,44 m
Main Belt covers 92% of normal length

- Torpedo Bulkhead:
1,77" / 45 mm 391,73 ft / 119,40 m 21,06 ft / 6,42 m

- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 9,84" / 250 mm 5,91" / 150 mm 9,84" / 250 mm
2nd: 4,72" / 120 mm 2,36" / 60 mm 3,94" / 100 mm
3rd: 0,98" / 25 mm - -

- Armour deck: 2,56" / 65 mm, Conning tower: 9,84" / 250 mm

Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 4 shafts, 92 865 shp / 69 278 Kw = 29,00 kts
Range 12 000nm at 10,00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 1 996 tons

Complement:
876 - 1 140

Cost:
£5,746 million / $22,984 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 687 tons, 3,2%
Armour: 6 770 tons, 32,0%
- Belts: 2 312 tons, 10,9%
- Torpedo bulkhead: 541 tons, 2,6%
- Armament: 1 810 tons, 8,6%
- Armour Deck: 1 945 tons, 9,2%
- Conning Tower: 162 tons, 0,8%
Machinery: 2 973 tons, 14,1%
Hull, fittings & equipment: 8 608 tons, 40,7%
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2 018 tons, 9,5%
Miscellaneous weights: 100 tons, 0,5%

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
35 224 lbs / 15 977 Kg = 70,4 x 10,0 " / 254 mm shells or 5,7 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,20
Metacentric height 6,1 ft / 1,9 m
Roll period: 15,6 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 51 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,32
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1,09

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0,530
Length to Beam Ratio: 7,11 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 25,55 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 54 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 47
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 13,00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0,00 ft / 0,00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 29,43 ft / 8,97 m
- Forecastle (20%): 21,69 ft / 6,61 m
- Mid (50%): 21,69 ft / 6,61 m
- Quarterdeck (20%): 21,69 ft / 6,61 m
- Stern: 21,69 ft / 6,61 m
- Average freeboard: 22,31 ft / 6,80 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 92,1%
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 184,8%
Waterplane Area: 41 082 Square feet or 3 817 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 116%
Structure weight / hull surface area: 151 lbs/sq ft or 736 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0,97
- Longitudinal: 1,30
- Overall: 1,00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent

3 flote planes carried

Bold in latin is "Audax".

Quoted

Originally posted by thesmilingassassin
Bold in latin is "Audax".

Ok thanks I just found out that I have a polish-latin dictionary so no more mestake on my part(I hope).