WesWorld

This is what I may build first, a fleet of torpedo boats (about 12-24 planned). I am not yet entirely happy with it. I really want the Italian 23.6in torpedoes on it (one triple two single), would two guns be enough? The 75mm are an Argentinean copy of the French Modele 1897 but with a new L/50 barrel and firing a new shells. I've based in on the Siamese Trad Class so I can build it on my Type 0 slips.

Espora Class, Argentina Torpedo Boat laid down 1931

Displacement:
491 t light; 506 t standard; 552 t normal; 589 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
228.30 ft / 224.34 ft x 21.00 ft x 7.51 ft (normal load)
69.59 m / 68.38 m x 6.40 m x 2.29 m

Armament:
3 - 2.95" / 75.0 mm guns in single mounts, 13.66lbs / 6.20kg shells, 1931 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts
on centreline, evenly spread
Aft Main mounts separated by engine room
2 - 1.46" / 37.0 mm guns (1x2 guns), 1.55lbs / 0.70kg shells, 1931 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mount
on centreline amidships, all raised guns - superfiring
6 - 0.79" / 20.0 mm guns in single mounts, 0.24lbs / 0.11kg shells, 1931 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 46 lbs / 21 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 150
5 - 21.0" / 533.4 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 0.79" / 20 mm 0.39" / 10 mm -
2nd: 0.59" / 15 mm - -

Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 2 shafts, 13,902 shp / 10,371 Kw = 29.50 kts
Range 2,000nm at 15.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 82 tons

Complement:
56 - 74

Cost:
£0.262 million / $1.048 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 5 tons, 1.0 %
Armour: 4 tons, 0.6 %
- Belts: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 4 tons, 0.6 %
- Armour Deck: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Conning Tower: 0 tons, 0.0 %
Machinery: 274 tons, 49.6 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 199 tons, 36.0 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 61 tons, 11.0 %
Miscellaneous weights: 10 tons, 1.8 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
207 lbs / 94 Kg = 16.1 x 3.0 " / 75 mm shells or 0.2 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.10
Metacentric height 0.6 ft / 0.2 m
Roll period: 11.6 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 50 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.22
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.05

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise forward of midbreak
and transom stern
Block coefficient: 0.546
Length to Beam Ratio: 10.68 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 16.92 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 74 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 47
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 12.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 18.60 ft / 5.67 m
- Forecastle (18 %): 18.60 ft / 5.67 m
- Mid (32 %): 18.60 ft / 5.67 m (10.79 ft / 3.29 m aft of break)
- Quarterdeck (18 %): 10.79 ft / 3.29 m
- Stern: 10.79 ft / 3.29 m
- Average freeboard: 13.29 ft / 4.05 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 169.7 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 38.9 %
Waterplane Area: 3,409 Square feet or 317 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 62 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 22 lbs/sq ft or 108 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.50
- Longitudinal: 6.34
- Overall: 0.64
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
Room for accommodation and workspaces is extremely poor

Really the 75mm gun is too small against both aircraft and especially surface vessels. 2x100mm on a larger hull would be a better armament. I think the vessel is just too small as well. An actual destroyer, whilst being more expensive is also massively more capable.

For torpedoes, I personally devote some misc. weight towards them. When entering the number of the torpedoes into SS the only thing that changes is the amount of deckspace available. The weighs do not change at all. When you are mounting torpedoes that weigh about 2000kg+mounting weight, this has a massive influence on smaller vessels. The Italian 600/28 is a modified version of the Iberian 600mm torpedo and is very short ranged. The torpedo itself weighs about 2400kg. I made the total weight of torpedo+mounting to be 3000kg.

Looking at data about Trieste, 8x533mm torpedoes which weighed 17t. The 533mm torpedo weighs 1700kg. So 17 /(8x1.7) = 1.25 factor of torpedo weight to mounting weight. Ergo 2.4*1.25 = 3.0

Target practice for my Destroyers, and cruisers good!

Given the type 0 slip constraints you really can't make them longer but they certainly are small at 506 standard. CT signatories are limited to 600 tons to keep the design unlimited, Argentina not bing a signatory can produce a heavier design.

As Gavin said 2x100mm would be better for her main armament and IIRC Italy can supply that caliber.

Limit? What limits? I don't see any treaty limits among the ABC powers....just slip limits...oh and manufacturing base limits.

Presisely what I was suggesting, another limit however is the tolerance limit. What will a neighbouring country think about a superior design, particularily if that neighbour is a CT signatory? A modest design is less likely to antagonize the neighbour.

My intention is to produce a cheap TB that can be mass produced. I've gone for the 100mm guns and noe all the torpedoes are in a quad rotating mount. AA defence has been beefed up too. I've gone for a flush deck to help seakeeping. I'm going to build at least 12 of these (perhaps even 24) and 12 escorts based on the same hull but with more guns.
Earl822, just wait until you see what destroyers and cruisers I have planned to escort these "targets"(cue evil laugh HAHAHAHA!).
Corrientes Class, Argentina Torpedo Boat laid down 1931

Displacement:
484 t light; 501 t standard; 546 t normal; 583 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
228.52 ft / 225.00 ft x 20.34 ft x 7.51 ft (normal load)
69.65 m / 68.58 m x 6.20 m x 2.29 m

Armament:
2 - 3.94" / 100 mm guns in single mounts, 30.42lbs / 13.80kg shells, 1917 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts
on centreline ends, evenly spread
4 - 1.46" / 37.0 mm guns (2x2 guns), 1.55lbs / 0.70kg shells, 1931 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, all amidships
6 - 0.79" / 20.0 mm guns in single mounts, 0.24lbs / 0.11kg shells, 1931 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 68 lbs / 31 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 130
4 - 21.0" / 533.4 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 0.79" / 20 mm 0.39" / 10 mm -
2nd: 0.39" / 10 mm - -

Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 2 shafts, 13,830 shp / 10,317 Kw = 29.50 kts
Range 2,000nm at 15.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 82 tons

Complement:
56 - 73

Cost:
£0.265 million / $1.061 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 9 tons, 1.6 %
Armour: 3 tons, 0.6 %
- Belts: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 3 tons, 0.6 %
- Armour Deck: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Conning Tower: 0 tons, 0.0 %
Machinery: 262 tons, 47.9 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 191 tons, 34.9 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 62 tons, 11.3 %
Miscellaneous weights: 20 tons, 3.7 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
196 lbs / 89 Kg = 6.4 x 3.9 " / 100 mm shells or 0.2 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.11
Metacentric height 0.6 ft / 0.2 m
Roll period: 11.4 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 51 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.34
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.03

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
and transom stern
Block coefficient: 0.556
Length to Beam Ratio: 11.06 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 16.89 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 74 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 12.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 16.57 ft / 5.05 m
- Forecastle (18 %): 16.57 ft / 5.05 m
- Mid (32 %): 11.48 ft / 3.50 m
- Quarterdeck (18 %): 11.48 ft / 3.50 m
- Stern: 11.48 ft / 3.50 m
- Average freeboard: 12.75 ft / 3.89 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 170.6 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 54.5 %
Waterplane Area: 3,345 Square feet or 311 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 59 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 22 lbs/sq ft or 107 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.50
- Longitudinal: 5.82
- Overall: 0.64
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
Room for accommodation and workspaces is cramped

At 29.5 knots they are slow for torpedo boats and at 500 tons they still seem abit small. The do have a nice armament but I think they could be improved upon if enlarged and the speed is increased.

Jester, Denmark DDL laid down 1931

Displacement:
580 t light; 599 t standard; 630 t normal; 654 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
244.55 ft / 230.00 ft x 23.00 ft x 12.00 ft (normal load)
74.54 m / 70.10 m x 7.01 m x 3.66 m

Armament:
2 - 4.72" / 120 mm guns (1x2 guns), 52.72lbs / 23.92kg shells, 1931 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mount
on centreline forward
4 - 1.46" / 37.0 mm guns (2x2 guns), 1.55lbs / 0.70kg shells, 1931 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, all amidships
4 - 0.79" / 20.0 mm guns (2x2 guns), 0.24lbs / 0.11kg shells, 1931 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
Weight of broadside 113 lbs / 51 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 100
4 - 21.0" / 533.4 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 1.97" / 50 mm 0.79" / 20 mm -
2nd: 0.79" / 20 mm - -
3rd: 0.79" / 20 mm - -

- Conning tower: 0.79" / 20 mm

Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 2 shafts, 18,225 shp / 13,596 Kw = 32.00 kts
Range 2,000nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 55 tons

Complement:
62 - 81

Cost:
£0.324 million / $1.297 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 14 tons, 2.2 %
Armour: 10 tons, 1.5 %
- Belts: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 8 tons, 1.3 %
- Armour Deck: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Conning Tower: 1 tons, 0.2 %
Machinery: 301 tons, 47.8 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 225 tons, 35.8 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 50 tons, 7.9 %
Miscellaneous weights: 30 tons, 4.8 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
183 lbs / 83 Kg = 3.5 x 4.7 " / 120 mm shells or 0.2 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.10
Metacentric height 0.7 ft / 0.2 m
Roll period: 11.9 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 50 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.34
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.01

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise forward of midbreak
and transom stern
Block coefficient: 0.347
Length to Beam Ratio: 10.00 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 17.70 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 71 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 49
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 30.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 3.00 ft / 0.91 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 18.00 ft / 5.49 m
- Mid (35 %): 17.00 ft / 5.18 m (9.00 ft / 2.74 m aft of break)
- Quarterdeck (20 %): 9.00 ft / 2.74 m
- Stern: 9.00 ft / 2.74 m
- Average freeboard: 12.24 ft / 3.73 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 176.0 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 54.6 %
Waterplane Area: 3,333 Square feet or 310 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 51 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 27 lbs/sq ft or 131 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.50
- Longitudinal: 5.71
- Overall: 0.64
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
Room for accommodation and workspaces is cramped

I like her Commodore Green but I can't afford to buy any more foreign ships just yet. I'd prefer home construction to get the yards working and the experience for bigger ships. Here is the final design with some hull tweaks to improve the speed. Seakeeping is poorer but I can live with that. Two searchlights will be fitted for night actions. With Mendoza Class ships to escort them these ships should do alright, plus having superior numbers will also help.

Corrientes Class, Argentina Torpedo Boat laid down 1931

Displacement:
484 t light; 501 t standard; 546 t normal; 583 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
228.87 ft / 225.00 ft x 20.34 ft x 7.51 ft (normal load)
69.76 m / 68.58 m x 6.20 m x 2.29 m

Armament:
2 - 3.94" / 100 mm guns in single mounts, 30.42lbs / 13.80kg shells, 1917 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts
on centreline ends, evenly spread
4 - 1.46" / 37.0 mm guns (2x2 guns), 1.55lbs / 0.70kg shells, 1931 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, all amidships
6 - 0.79" / 20.0 mm guns in single mounts, 0.24lbs / 0.11kg shells, 1931 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 68 lbs / 31 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 130
4 - 21.0" / 533.4 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 0.98" / 25 mm 0.39" / 10 mm -
2nd: 0.39" / 10 mm - -

Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 2 shafts, 15,000 shp / 11,190 Kw = 30.06 kts
Range 2,000nm at 15.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 82 tons

Complement:
56 - 73

Cost:
£0.268 million / $1.072 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 9 tons, 1.6 %
Armour: 4 tons, 0.7 %
- Belts: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 4 tons, 0.7 %
- Armour Deck: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Conning Tower: 0 tons, 0.0 %
Machinery: 266 tons, 48.7 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 186 tons, 34.1 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 62 tons, 11.3 %
Miscellaneous weights: 20 tons, 3.7 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
181 lbs / 82 Kg = 5.9 x 3.9 " / 100 mm shells or 0.2 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.09
Metacentric height 0.5 ft / 0.2 m
Roll period: 11.6 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 51 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.34
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 0.93

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise forward of midbreak
and transom stern
Block coefficient: 0.556
Length to Beam Ratio: 11.06 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 16.89 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 75 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 55
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 12.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 18.21 ft / 5.55 m
- Forecastle (18 %): 17.88 ft / 5.45 m
- Mid (32 %): 17.88 ft / 5.45 m (9.84 ft / 3.00 m aft of break)
- Quarterdeck (18 %): 9.84 ft / 3.00 m
- Stern: 9.84 ft / 3.00 m
- Average freeboard: 12.44 ft / 3.79 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 173.1 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 52.5 %
Waterplane Area: 3,345 Square feet or 311 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 55 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 22 lbs/sq ft or 107 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.50
- Longitudinal: 5.26
- Overall: 0.63
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
Room for accommodation and workspaces is cramped
Poor seaboat, wet and uncomfortable, reduced performance in heavy weather

Watch them block co-efficients, guys. Mac's 0.34 is kinda low even for a TB, while Espora's 0.55 is kinda chunky. Something around 0.40 is probably good.

Here is a picture for you all of the Corrientes Class torpedo boat.

My attempt on drawing this little TB


Ill post the other one as soon as its ready.

Quoted

Originally posted by Earl822
Target practice for my Destroyers, and cruisers good!

Oh no You dont I like this little ship.
Your destroyers will keep there nasty 110mm guns away form it, or I will uhm...stop buying your steel
;-)

The final design plan to which these ships are to be built.

What class does the drawing represent originally?

The drawing is of the Trad Class built for Siam by C.D.R.A Monfalcone from 1934. Dimensions are 67.97/6.4/2.13m and displacment of 323tons standard and so accurately represents my design. It is the design that influenced me throughout the design process.