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I also made another version in which 2 380mm barrels were swapped out in exchange for trimming off 2,500 tons and an increase of 2 knots. (A 2x2x380mm ship at 19,000 tons normal with speed of 36 knots)Quoted
CAB-02 Reliable, Heavy Cruiser - Bombardment laid down 1945
Displacement:
18,889 t light; 19,772 t standard; 21,500 t normal; 22,882 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
749.67 ft / 721.78 ft x 75.46 ft x 25.59 ft (normal load)
228.50 m / 220.00 m x 23.00 m x 7.80 m
Armament:
6 - 14.96" / 380 mm guns (2x3 guns), 1,091.29lbs / 495.00kg shells, 1945 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, evenly spread
40 - 3.94" / 100 mm guns (10x4 guns), 30.51lbs / 13.84kg shells, 1945 Model
Automatic rapid fire guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, all amidships, 4 raised mounts - superfiring
8 - 2.24" / 57.0 mm guns (4x2 guns), 5.65lbs / 2.56kg shells, 1945 Model
Automatic rapid fire guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, evenly spread
24 - 0.91" / 23.0 mm guns (12x2 guns), 0.37lbs / 0.17kg shells, 1945 Model
Machine guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 7,822 lbs / 3,548 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 100
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 5.12" / 130 mm 505.25 ft / 154.00 m 10.50 ft / 3.20 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 108 % of normal length
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 8.27" / 210 mm 3.54" / 90 mm 4.72" / 120 mm
2nd: 0.98" / 25 mm 0.39" / 10 mm 0.59" / 15 mm
3rd: 0.98" / 25 mm 0.39" / 10 mm 0.59" / 15 mm
4th: 0.39" / 10 mm 0.20" / 5 mm -
- Armour deck: 2.56" / 65 mm, Conning tower: 5.91" / 150 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 4 shafts, 142,204 shp / 106,084 Kw = 34.00 kts
Range 10,000nm at 15.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 3,110 tons
Complement:
887 - 1,154
Cost:
£16.437 million / $65.748 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 1,447 tons, 6.7 %
Armour: 3,883 tons, 18.1 %
- Belts: 1,123 tons, 5.2 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 806 tons, 3.7 %
- Armour Deck: 1,855 tons, 8.6 %
- Conning Tower: 98 tons, 0.5 %
Machinery: 3,591 tons, 16.7 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 9,293 tons, 43.2 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2,611 tons, 12.1 %
Miscellaneous weights: 675 tons, 3.1 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
21,317 lbs / 9,669 Kg = 12.7 x 15.0 " / 380 mm shells or 1.9 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.07
Metacentric height 3.8 ft / 1.1 m
Roll period: 16.4 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 50 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.90
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.01
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
and transom stern
Block coefficient: 0.540
Length to Beam Ratio: 9.57 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 30.63 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 56 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 45.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 27.89 ft / 8.50 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 22.97 ft / 7.00 m
- Mid (50 %): 22.97 ft / 7.00 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 22.97 ft / 7.00 m
- Stern: 26.25 ft / 8.00 m
- Average freeboard: 23.61 ft / 7.20 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 106.8 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 193.3 %
Waterplane Area: 39,191 Square feet or 3,641 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 92 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 155 lbs/sq ft or 758 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.96
- Longitudinal: 1.39
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Total: 675t
- 218 tons for Electronic Suite
- 100 tons for Electronic Fire-Control on 380mm, 100mm, and 57mm guns
- 150 tons for Communications
- 100 tons for Combat Management Center
- 25 tons for Surface and Air Search Radars (2 radars)
- 10 tons for Air Search Radar (1 radar)
- 4 tons for Navigational Surface and Air Search Radar (2 radars)
- 12 tons for Fire-Control Radar (3 radars)
- 6 tons for Height-finding Radar (1 radar)
- 40 tons for extra damage-control gear, pumps, etc
- 10 tons for forward Voith-Schneider maneuvering system
Quoted
CAB-03 Reliable, Light Cruiser - Bombardment laid down 1945
Displacement:
14,715 t light; 15,317 t standard; 16,500 t normal; 17,446 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
675.85 ft / 643.04 ft x 64.30 ft x 27.89 ft (normal load)
206.00 m / 196.00 m x 19.60 m x 8.50 m
Armament:
3 - 14.96" / 380 mm guns (1x3 guns), 1,091.29lbs / 495.00kg shells, 1945 Model
Breech loading guns in a turret (on a barbette)
on centreline forward
40 - 3.94" / 100 mm guns (10x4 guns), 30.51lbs / 13.84kg shells, 1945 Model
Automatic rapid fire guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, all amidships, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
8 - 2.24" / 57.0 mm guns (4x2 guns), 5.65lbs / 2.56kg shells, 1945 Model
Automatic rapid fire guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, evenly spread
24 - 0.91" / 23.0 mm guns (12x2 guns), 0.37lbs / 0.17kg shells, 1945 Model
Machine guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 4,548 lbs / 2,063 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 100
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 2.95" / 75 mm 541.34 ft / 165.00 m 9.84 ft / 3.00 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 130 % of normal length
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 4.72" / 120 mm 1.57" / 40 mm 2.36" / 60 mm
2nd: 0.79" / 20 mm 0.20" / 5 mm -
3rd: 0.79" / 20 mm 0.20" / 5 mm -
4th: 0.39" / 10 mm - -
- Armour deck: 1.97" / 50 mm, Conning tower: 2.95" / 75 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 4 shafts, 182,362 shp / 136,042 Kw = 37.50 kts
Range 8,000nm at 15.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 2,130 tons
Complement:
727 - 946
Cost:
£12.765 million / $51.060 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 819 tons, 5.0 %
Armour: 1,944 tons, 11.8 %
- Belts: 630 tons, 3.8 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 229 tons, 1.4 %
- Armour Deck: 1,044 tons, 6.3 %
- Conning Tower: 41 tons, 0.2 %
Machinery: 4,605 tons, 27.9 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 6,961 tons, 42.2 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,785 tons, 10.8 %
Miscellaneous weights: 386 tons, 2.3 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
11,063 lbs / 5,018 Kg = 6.6 x 15.0 " / 380 mm shells or 1.2 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.07
Metacentric height 2.9 ft / 0.9 m
Roll period: 15.8 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 51 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.95
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.01
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
and transom stern
Block coefficient: 0.501
Length to Beam Ratio: 10.00 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 28.94 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 63 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 45.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 32.81 ft / 10.00 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 26.25 ft / 8.00 m
- Mid (50 %): 22.97 ft / 7.00 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 22.97 ft / 7.00 m
- Stern: 27.89 ft / 8.50 m
- Average freeboard: 25.01 ft / 7.62 m
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 129.2 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 178.2 %
Waterplane Area: 28,672 Square feet or 2,664 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 91 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 133 lbs/sq ft or 649 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.90
- Longitudinal: 2.49
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Total: 386t
- 154 tons for Electronic Suite
- 40 tons for Electronic Fire-Control on 380mm, 100mm, and 57mm guns
- 70 tons for Communications
- 60 tons for Combat Management Center
- 25 tons for Surface and Air Search Radars (2 radars)
- 10 tons for Air Search Radar (1 radar)
- 4 tons for Navigational Surface and Air Search Radar (2 radars)
- 12 tons for Fire-Control Radar (3 radars)
- 6 tons for Height-finding Radar (1 radar)
- 5 tons for forward Voith-Schneider maneuvering system
I have quite some reason to doubt the need for 90-100' beam. I'll expound on that: The requirement of such beam is mostly a function of the need for TDS space as well as the number of barrels, not of the gun diameter itself.Quoted
My biggest concern with the designs posted thus far is that the beam feels inadequate for a triple 15" turret - I'd have looked for about 90-100' beam at least, though I'd have accepted possibly as low as 80' for a twin turret. Are there any historical design proposals you looked at that had narrower beam?
From this data we can guess an RN Three-gun 15" gun will have a barbette diameter of ~35ft which is not too far from that of the KM 11" triples which had diameters of 33.46ft (10.2m). The KM did have much more spacious turrets compared to other navies. The point I am making is that a beam about the same size as the Deutschland-class will hold triple 11'' (280mm) just as well as triple 15" (380mm). Of course, if you have very spacious turrets then you will need more beam by this metric, but that's a design choice, not a technical one.Quoted
8"/55 Three-gun Turret CA-134 class: Inner diameter 26 ft. 0 in.
14"/45 Triple Turret BB-36 class: Inner diameter 30 ft. 0 in.
14"/45 Triple Turret BB-38 class: Inner diameter 29 ft. 0 in.
14"/45 Two-gun Turret BB-34 and BB-36 classes: Inner diameter 28 ft. 0 in.
12"/50 Two-gun Turret BB-32 class: Roller path outer diameter 24 ft. 11 in.
UK RN
16"/45 Three-gun Turret Nelson class: Inner diameter 38 ft. 6 in.
15"/42 Two-gun Turret: Inner diameter 30 ft. 6 in.
14"/45 Two-gun Turret KGV: Inner diameter 29 ft. 6 in.
14"/45 Four-gun Turret KGV: Inner diameter 40 ft. 0 in.
8"/50 Two-gun Turret County classes inner diameter: 20 ft. 6 in.
6"/50 Two-gun Turret Leander/Perth/Arethusa cruisers inner diameter: 17 ft. 6 in.
6"/50 Three-gun Turret Town/Colony cruisers inner diameter: 23 ft. 6 in.
6"/50 Two-gun Turret Nelson class inner diameter: 17 ft. 9 in.
I think you severely underestimate how much range 65km is. There are a few places where the ship would actually have to be close to the shore to reach a target inland, but those are few and usually low value anyways. Let's take each situation and I'll expound on the details:Quoted
I think that your target reach figures does not take into account the complete suicide aspect of taking that ship so close to shore or into fairly restricted areas such as the Inland, Bohol, Visayan or Sibuyan Seas, or Kattegat. I think that the number of AA guns and the size of the CAP will have to be massive. Due to the proximity to the coastline, you can expect every plane to be heading your way.
To get at everything in Denmark, you'd have to go through fairly narrow straits where even people with portable rocket launchers would probably be shooting at your ships. Other nasty surprises in such traps would be shore mounted torpedo tubes, massive amounts of MTBs and midget subs. I can also see truck-mounted rockets being fired at those ships as well. If you have 100 MTBs and midget subs in that trap, each carrying 2 torpedoes, you'll have 200 torpedoes in the water and only two are needed to sink that cruiser (and due to the confined space, I would think that quite a few escort ships will bite the dust as well).
If the captain is smart enough, he'd stay far away from such areas.
Quoted
To employ such a vessel would demand prior control of the air and sea surrounding the intended target area, obtained by more conventional means. If control of the air and sea have already been obtained, such a vessel is rather superfluous.
Well, I use Google Earth to look at distances so it's hard to see how I can underestimate the range. More likely a matter of definition of target. To me an airfield is as much a target as a farmer's opium corn field.Quoted
I think you severely underestimate how much range 65km is.
With "such traps" I was talking about attacks in narrow stretches of water like the one between Kattegat and Fehmarnbelt. I was not talking about attacks on the open sea.Quoted
It should be kept in mind that most torpedoes of WW2 have ranges of 8km and even the famed long lances have only a range of 40km which it would be moving at 36kts.
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The speed advantage of the MTBs, which is the crux of an MTBs success is almost nonexistent and so is the chance of such an operation's success.
Quoted
Quadruple automatic 100mm deck mounts sound like pretty large, complex, and clumsy weapons.
Quoted
The number of shells per main gun seems quite low and will demand replenishment quite often, for which the ship will be forced to retreat into saver waters. Transit and replenishment time will cost you time for your prime mission. I think this is an issue.
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