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howard

Unregistered

1

Saturday, July 12th 2008, 9:06pm

HEBCO Seagull Class mine warfare ship.



Need a reasonably fast small mine warfare ship to supplement or replace that collection of worn trawlers you've been using to clear mines?

Try a HEBCO Seagull!

Specs upon request.

H.

2

Saturday, July 12th 2008, 10:34pm

You mention in your notes that it uses "the best and strongest in non-magnetic hull materials", just what materials are you thinking of?

3

Saturday, July 12th 2008, 10:52pm

I'm a bit puzzled by that comment myself: what's the point, in 1936? How many magnetic mines are out there, that a commercial firm would know about them?

4

Saturday, July 12th 2008, 11:12pm

Quoted

Originally posted by Hrolf Hakonson
I'm a bit puzzled by that comment myself: what's the point, in 1936? How many magnetic mines are out there, that a commercial firm would know about them?


I didn't want to raise that point myself, based on not being able to find a difinitive historical first use date.
.....but it's a good point, none the less!

howard

Unregistered

5

Sunday, July 13th 2008, 2:42am

The US Mark 6 exploder used in the current US WW torpedo family was based on a German magnetic influence bottom mine the USN swept and recovered in WW I. That is a real world FACT.

[Fluff]
In WW, the British recovered it and the Americans somehow got hold of it-probably through Canada.

Charles Howard and Simon Lake know this. They expect magnetic influenced mines to become a BIG problem,[Fluff ends.]

The Seagull's hull is non-magnetic alloy.

http://www.physlink.com/Education/AskExperts/ae546.cfm

HHS-5 to be exact, 1928.

H.

This post has been edited 1 times, last edit by "howard" (Jul 13th 2008, 4:09am)


6

Monday, July 14th 2008, 11:00am

Quoted

The US Mark 6 exploder used in the current US WW torpedo family was based on a German magnetic influence bottom mine the USN swept and recovered in WW I.


It also didn't work. The only magnetic torpedo fuse that gave reasonable reliability in WWII was the Italian one.

It probably requires clairvoyance to get that magnetic mines are going to become widespread, and then again only really after a decade.

A stainless steel boat hull is going to cost between 3 and 4 times the amount of a conventional mild steel. You'd be far better off in fitting degaussing lines instead.

howard

Unregistered

7

Monday, July 14th 2008, 1:50pm

Quoted

Originally posted by Red Admiral

Quoted

The US Mark 6 exploder used in the current US WW torpedo family was based on a German magnetic influence bottom mine the USN swept and recovered in WW I.


It also didn't work. The only magnetic torpedo fuse that gave reasonable reliability in WWII was the Italian one.


I covered that. Install a rheostat and map the Earth's magnetic field as ralph Christie tried to do. Son of Mark VI works just fine in American torpedoes. Has since 1950. The Italians were smart, they also only had a limited geography range to fight in. No radical magnetic field variance in the Med.

Quoted


It probably requires clairvoyance to get that magnetic mines are going to become widespread, and then again only really after a decade.


The Mark VI composite exploder became the standard exploder for the US torpedo arsenal. US air dropped bottom mines as soon as they were developed [1942 or thereabouts] immediately featured a magnetic influence feature that DID work. Clairvoyance? germans started using magnetic mines against the British right off the bat.

Degaussing gear requires a emplaced grounded degaussing station. Expensive and the effect is only temporary. You never know when it will fail; until the mine goes off.

Quoted


A stainless steel boat hull is going to cost between 3 and 4 times the amount of a conventional mild steel. You'd be far better off in fitting degaussing lines instead.


CREF immediately above.

H.

8

Monday, July 14th 2008, 2:29pm

Quoted

CREF immediately above.


Boats aren't made from stainless steel. Higher nickel and chrome content will push the cost up even further.

howard

Unregistered

9

Monday, July 14th 2008, 2:31pm

Quoted

Originally posted by Red Admiral

Quoted

CREF immediately above.


Boats aren't made from stainless steel. Higher nickel and chrome content will push the cost up even further.


Modern Type 209s.

10

Monday, July 14th 2008, 2:38pm

The 1930s are not today.

If that were the case you might as well use fibreglass.

Stainless Steel also gives rise to lots of fabrication problems.

This post has been edited 1 times, last edit by "Red Admiral" (Jul 14th 2008, 2:58pm)


11

Monday, July 14th 2008, 2:48pm

You think a little bit too modern howard.

You use the experiences of today's time for the constructions and the experience which has been made in the past.

BUT WE ARE NOW IN 1936, that means you didn't know how great the influence of something will be, or do you have a crystal ball, where you can look in the future ?

howard

Unregistered

12

Monday, July 14th 2008, 3:06pm

Quoted

Originally posted by parador
You think a little bit too modern howard.

You use the experiences of today's time for the constructions and the experience which has been made in the past.

BUT WE ARE NOW IN 1936, that means you didn't know how great the influence of something will be, or do you have a crystal ball, where you can look in the future ?


I'm not doing anything here; the USN wasn't doing or planning or ANTICIPATING in 1935. CREF history above

They chose to degause their steel-hulled minesweepers in 1939 onward, because they expected to be degaussing from their bases and harbors and that it would be good enough to handle magnetic mines. They even built a degaussing station at Pearl Harbor in 1935 in anticipation of the magnetic mine threat. They were wrong that in thinking that it would be effective enough.

Fiberglass or GRPC hulls strong enough to act as ship hulls, are recent-1958 or so. Stainless steel is available in mass quantity from 1933 onward.

Money is no object, when you are a rich navy or one with no Pacific bases.

That is how we got cheap GRPC minesweepers post-war. The Navy funded the EXPENSIVE plastics research.

H.

This post has been edited 1 times, last edit by "howard" (Jul 14th 2008, 3:08pm)


13

Monday, July 14th 2008, 4:29pm

Tell me please some good reasons, why a navy should afford a ship with a hull making out of stainless steel ?


a) normal steel is much cheaper => same Budget more ships
b) simplier production (welding etc.) for normal steel


We all sometimes make the mistake, that we let flow the experience which we have won in the past 70 years into the construction.

NOW you know, that the U.S. had made a mistake. But THEN you only knew, that there have been attempts in this case.

What i mean is, NOW we know the danger of the magnetic mines, but in the past, nobody knows how successfull they could be !!!

This post has been edited 1 times, last edit by "parador" (Jul 14th 2008, 9:28pm)


14

Monday, July 14th 2008, 4:57pm

Stainless steels are difficult to fabricate structures from. This problem wasn't really solved until the 60s and 70s when the material began to be used to deal with the higher Mach numbers in aerospace design (aluminium limited from low melting point). Fibreglass hulls have only recently come into their own because of advances with adhesives to fix them together. Previous fasteners created stress concentrations that caused cracks in the hulls.

Deguassing using a electrified cable pulled along the ship's hull is far cheaper and easier and you can also do multiple ships.

15

Monday, July 14th 2008, 6:37pm

Just make the ship out of wood...

16

Monday, July 14th 2008, 6:46pm

...even cheaper!

17

Monday, July 14th 2008, 9:07pm

and historically correct....

A friend of mine is currently converting the former HMS Portesham into a home (I can't bring myself to call it a house boat, it just seems wrong to call a former warship a house boat!!)

18

Monday, July 14th 2008, 9:25pm

Thats what i mean !

If we will play a little bit historical, no ship will be built with stainless steel in the mid 30s !!!
There are too much problem which weren't solved in the years we play !

This post has been edited 1 times, last edit by "parador" (Jul 14th 2008, 9:26pm)


19

Monday, July 14th 2008, 9:51pm

Quoted

If that were the case you might as well use fibreglass.

Exactly. Just like Japan's PBRs. :)

... Oh wait, I think I was using the next best thing that actually existed back in the 1930s: Plywood! :D

Quoted

it just seems wrong to call a former warship a house boat!!

Seems wrong? It is wrong.

This post has been edited 1 times, last edit by "Rooijen10" (Jul 14th 2008, 9:52pm)


20

Monday, July 14th 2008, 10:04pm

I have no problem with people building ships out of stainless steel, but for something that is supposed to be disposable, I would prefer a much cheaper material. You can probably get 10 wood minesweepers for every stainless steel one.