WesWorld

This is a timeline Brock and Hood helped cook up 5 years ago so its a raw timeline un effected by current development's elsewhere.

Overview

Roth/Packard Engine Works: as noted before, Roth/Packard's being solidly beaten by Spartan in the aircraft engine market. Roth is the first company to invest in jet engines as a way of getting a head start on engine production. (Also, Roth/Packard jointly holds Austral.)
- Major Evander Damon: first Atlantean jet pilot (1942); test-pilot formerly part of Bulldog Hadrian's squadron in the Peruvian War. He's been trained as an aeronautical engineer, so his mix of flying and engineering expertise is important.
- Dr. Menelaus Crius: Roth's engineer working on jets. "The father of Atlantean jet propulsion". Crius is very highly educated despite his relatively young age (30) with his doctorate in physics. His work largely drives the direction of the entire long-term Atlantean program. (Somewhat based on Hans von Ohain.)
- Fernando Pernet-Sharpe (Austral): Chilean engineer working with turboprops.

Spartan Engine Works: Spartan is the dominant engine manufacturer in Atlantis and has experience building and designing turbosuperchargers, which leads them to hold onto piston engine development a bit too long, but gives them experience to catch up quickly.
- Argus and Ajax Praxis: twin brothers who started their own aircraft manufacturing firm in 1923 (but only built civilian planes). Argus is a pilot with engineer training, while Ajax is an engineer and hates flying. The Praxis brothers employ a large and dynamic R&D staff, but their designs are never adopted by the military and their civilian designs suffer from lukewarm sales (they make most of their money building parts for Spartan). In 1939, Spartan buys Praxis and maintains Praxis's independent R&D, asking them to work on a military jet program. (The Praxis brothers are somewhat based on Larry Bell and Bell Aircraft.)

Ripon: Ripon is primarily a bomber manufacturer, though they have a partnership with Bloch and have produced fighters fairly recently.
- Linus Hippolytos: Ripon's engineer. Hippolytos starts as an assistant to Dr. Crius but doesn't think Crius's designs will work, so he leaves to start his own program, gaining Ripon's ear and R&D money.

Accrisius: Doesn't seem to make engines, but they've been shoved out of the fighter market by their traditional source of engines (Spartan) and are likely looking for a comeback.

Timeline
- 1935-1938: Crius petitions the Atlantean Air Force for R&D funds, and gets pittances.
- 1937: Roth-Packard and Austral buy 35% of each other's holdings. Austral retains its own R&D staff.
- 1938: Crius and Hippolytos go to work for Roth-Packard and begin designing a turbojet. The immediately quarrel over centrifugal or axial flow designs.
- 1938: Ajax Praxis proposes a turbojet idea and discovers the Whittle patents have lapsed. He borrows ideas liberally.
- 1938: Austral exchanges special engine alloys to Britain for access to Jendrassik and his turboprop work. Pernet-Sharpe begins playing with designs that will lead to the Austral Malacara turboprop.
- 1939: Hippolytos leaves Roth-Packard and goes to Ripon.
- 1939: Flight of Heinkel He 178 alarms Atlantean Air Force, which begins asking manufacturers about jet fighters. Roth-Packard proposes the C.AF.1 turbojet they're working on. Spartan initially declines to invest in large-scale development, preferring to continue development of their very successful and lucrative V12 line.
- 1939: The Atlantean government forms the Advancing Technology Development Committee (ATDC) to organize all Atlantean jet-aircraft efforts.
- 1939: Spartan, reevaluating their decision not to develop jets and under pressure from the new ATDC, buys Praxis Aviation; the Praxis brothers and their R&D team start actively designing a jet engine for Spartan.
- 1940: The ATDC contracts Roth-Packard to work on axial-flow turbojet engines, while Ripon works on centrifugal-flow turbojets. Spartan will work on both centrifugal and axial turbojets (as they have the largest budget). This establishes a fallback in case one program should fail.
- 1940: Pernet-Sharpe meets with Jendrassik in Britain and Crius in Atlantis. Crius and Pernet-Sharpe exchange ideas and delegate their work: Austral will finish their turboprop work, while Roth-Packard will work exclusively on the turbojet.
- 1941 (early): Crius begins testing his first engine on the test stand. It is a very advanced but fussy axial-flow turbojet.
- 1941: The Praxis brothers and their designers begin testing Spartan's first jet engine, the centrifugal-flow Prometheus. It is not self-sustaining and requires compressed air to work.
- 1941 (late): Pernet-Sharpe finishes the initial design for the Austral Malacara turboprop, with three initial variants: the 650hp Malacara-A2 and the Malacara-Superpoderes SP1 and SP3 (1,800hp and 2,450hp respectively).
- 1941 (late): Hippolytos tests the first Ripon centrifugal turbojet, the Ripon Alpha. Unlike the Spartan Prometheus, it is self-sustaining.
- March 1942: Roth-Packard builds the C.AF.1 engine and Major Damon flies the first Atlantean jet (Roth-Aero XJ1, nicknamed "Speed Queen").
- May 1942: Major Damon crashes the Roth Speed Queen, but survives and is able to analyze the accident extensively, providing the engineers with very detailed data. Crius and Roth-Packard decide to go back to the drawing board to design the new C.AF.2.
- June 1942: Spartan test-flies the Spartan Sp-X jet with their axial-flow Daedalus engine. Tests of the engine are promising but the airframe is a disappointment. The centrifugal Prometheus-II is flown aboard a Spartan Vanquish testbed and seems surprisingly trouble-free.
- October 1942: Ripon's first jet engine flies aboard a B-8 bomber testbed aircraft.
- 1942 (late): The Atlantean Air Force and naval air arm begins to pressure the ATDC to begin providing them with jet options. Spartan is the only company able to respond, with a possible delivery date of mid-1944, offering both services a mixed-power aircraft with a V12 piston engine and a working centrifugal-flow engine (the Prometheus-II). The Navy finds this design acceptable (aircraft based on the Ryan FR Fireball, XF2R Dark Shark, or I-250 fighter) as they don't think jets can take off unassisted from carriers. Code-named Spartan Stormrider.
- 1942 (late): Austral Malacara-A2 and Malacara-SP3 enter production. The A2 is quickly added to the Constellacion Twin Condor while the SP3 will be placed in the ENAER Kodkod close-support aircraft (for 1944). Both engines are reverse-licensed to Roth-Packard.
- 1942: Accrisius shops for jet engines and elects to buy the Spartan Prometheus-II (centrifugal) as it's the best engine available for the foreseeable future.
- 1943: Roth designs the experimental XJ2 "Thunder Queen" which is intended to be their eventual jet fighter offering. Design work moves slowly because the C.AF.2 engine is incomplete. (Eventual He. P.1079 clone.)
- 1943: Spartan starts to work on a new axial-flow turbojet (Athena) to replace the troublesome Daedalus.
- 1943: Roth-Packard proposes an armoured ground-attack plane with twin Malacara turboprops. (Potential Henschel Hs-129 clone)
- 1943 (late): Accrisius flies their first jet, the Accrisius Angel, powered by the Spartan Prometheus-II. It will be the design prototype for Accrisius's eventual jet fighter. Accrisius benefits somewhat from entering the race late as they buy rather than build their own engines; they decide to design the Angel's successor, the Accrisius Aggressor, with an axial Athena engine, however, as they feel the Prometheus-II is a short-term solution.
- 1943 (late): Roth-Packard's C.AF.2 begins test-stand operations. Design of new swept-wing, twin-engine heavy fighter (Roth-Aero Thunder Queen) begins in earnest.
- 1943: Spartan designs novel single-engine, swept-wing fighter (clone of Messerschmitt Me P1110/Saab Lansen) using Athena engine. Code-named Spartan Spear. In the short-term, Spartan uses the Daedalus-II to build the single engine Spartan Bullet fighter (clone of deHavilland Vampire).
- 1944: Ripon-Bloch offers two and four-engine jet bomber designs (clone of Heinkel He 343) called B-15 and B-17.
- 1944: Spartan Stormrider, mixed-power jet enters service with V12 engine + Daedalus-II. Potentially the first naval jet fighter, even if it is mixed-power.
- 1945: Roth Thunder Queen heavy fighter goes into service.
- 1945: Spartan Bullet goes into service.
- 1946: Accrisius Aggressor (with Spartan Athena engine) goes into service.
- 1947: Spartan Spear goes into service.

Spartan Engines:
- Prometheus: first Spartan turbojet (centrifugal flow). Not self-sustaining.
- Prometheus-II: first production turbojet (centrifugal flow). Operational, used for Spartan Stormrider.
- Daedalus: first production jet engine (axial). Complete failure.
- Athena: first production Spartan axial-flow turbojet (1946).

Roth-Packard:
- C.AF.1: first working Atlantean jet engine (axial flow). Test only.
- C.AF.2: production engine for Roth-Packard (axial flow). Designed and produced for Thunder Queen fighter.
- C.AF.3: reworked C.AF.2 for 1948 or 1949. Licensed to Austral as the Shadowless; afterburner added in 1950.

Austral (Chile, aligned with Roth-Packard):
- Austral Malacara: turboprop with 500-2,500hp (multiple versions available)
- Austral Shadowless: licensed C.AF.3 turbojet (axial flow).

Ripon:
- Engine Alpha: first Ripon jet (centrifugal flow). Testbed only. Flies in the Ripon Testbed.
- Engine Beta: production turbojet (centrifugal flow). Designed for 2/4-engine bomber.
- Engine Gamma: production turbojet (centrifugal flow). Higher-thrust version of Engine Beta. Designed for single-engine operation.

[SIZE=3]Test Planes[/SIZE]
- Accrisius Angel: first Accrisius jet (1943), with Spartan Prometheus-II.
- Roth XFJ1 "Speed Queen": first Atlantean jet. Successful, but most of them crash anyway.
- Spartan SP-X: Spartan-designed all-jet testbed. Airframe is barely sufficient for the purpose and performance is disappointing. Still a useful learning experience.
- Ripon Testbed: modified B-8 bomber.

[SIZE=3]Production Aircraft[/SIZE]
- Accrisius Aggressor: single-engine fighter, very novel tailless design with swept wings. Uses a single Spartan Athena engine.
- Ripon B-15: twin engine bomber or recce plane
- Ripon B-17: four engine long-ranged bomber or recce plane
- Roth Thunder Queen: twin-engine heavy fighter (late 1945)
- Roth Night Queen: Thunder Queen nightfighter variant.
- Spartan Stormrider: mixed-power aircraft (1944) Land-based version not built, naval only.
- Spartan Bullet: single-engine twin-tailed fighter deployed 1945
- Spartan Spear: fast swept-wing fighter deployed 1947

It looks kinda odd with the Stormrider for example that the range is known using imperial but not known using metric while the service ceiling is not known using imperial and known using metric... Are you mixing OTL data?

It was probably sloppiness on my part, since I wrote most of the specs. IIRC, right about that time I'd been writing most specs in English before switching over slowly to metric. I was also working off of websites that had differing units of measure.

Compared to what we've seen since I wrote all this, some of the performance specs are probably a tad ambitious, particularly with regard to max speeds.

Like with the Thunder Queen? You do not know its mass and you do not know the power of the engines so how can one be sure that it can hit 950 kph? It could easily be too heavy for its engines to get to even 600 kph.

Yes, I think that some of the parameters need adjustment.

For example, the Spartan Bullet has a thrust/weight ration of 0.28, which makes it comparable to the historical Heinkel 162; however the Bullet has a maximum speed of 885 kph, 12% higher than the He162; I think that they should be comparable in performance.

The Accrisius Aggressor has a very good thrust/weight ratio, 0.35, putting it in the class of the historical F-80C and MiG-9; however, it is significantly lighter than either of those historical designs - only 83% of the MiG's 5,000 kg gross weight and 54% of the F-80C's 7,646 kg gross weight. I have grave doubts that you could construct a combat aircraft that light; any additional mass would reduce the thrust/weight ration and thus degrade the stated performance.

Because the data for the Spartan Spear is incomplete, I cannot calculate a thrust weight ratio, but the performance of the engine - more than forty kN - is way outside the capabilities of historical engines of the period. Some adjustment or significant explanation is in order, IMHO.

Quoted from "Rooijen10"

Like with the Thunder Queen? You do not know its mass and you do not know the power of the engines so how can one be sure that it can hit 950 kph? It could easily be too heavy for its engines to get to even 600 kph. :)

The Thunder Queen isn't all that ambitious by comparison to some of the others.

Keep in mind that I was basically writing a proposal, years ahead of time, and had no idea what other people were doing. I mean, at the time I wrote this, Hrolf was still running Germany (and not talking much about future planes), Italy was still active under Red Admiral, and I wasn't even running France or Russia. So "the way forward" wasn't clear, and so most of the later planes are rather sketchy in nature.

If it helps, think of things like this:
- Spartan Stormrider = Ryan FR Fireball
- Roth Aero Thunder Queen = Me262 or Meteor
- Spartan Bullet = de Havilland Vampire

Quoted from "Brockpaine"

The Thunder Queen isn't all that ambitious by comparison to some of the others.

Keep in mind that I was basically writing a proposal, years ahead of time, and had no idea what other people were doing. I mean, at the time I wrote this, Hrolf was still running Germany (and not talking much about future planes), Italy was still active under Red Admiral, and I wasn't even running France or Russia. So "the way forward" wasn't clear, and so most of the later planes are rather sketchy in nature.

If it helps, think of things like this:
- Spartan Stormrider = Ryan FR Fireball
- Roth Aero Thunder Queen = Me262 or Meteor
- Spartan Bullet = de Havilland Vampire

Those comparisons help, but as I've noted, some remedial work may need to be done to bring engines, aircraft weights, and performance into a historical perspective. As Wes mentioned at the outset of the thread, this was raw data, drawn up five real years ago. There is no reason to jump all over anyone.

When I look at the Spartan Stormrider/Ryan FR Fireball, one problem I see is that you significantly alter things. You go from 1,350 hp + 1,600 lbf engines to 2,000 hp + 1,700 lbf engins. Does that really result in a 24% speed increase, a 173% climb rate increase, a 126% range increase and a 6% decrease in weight?

The same with the Spartan Bullet/de Havilland Vampire (looking at the Valka forum, the F Mk.3 production was started in 1947). Does the 131% mass increase and 228% thrust increase really result in a 28% speed increase, 352% climb rate increase, 13% ceiling increase, and 9% range increase? (actually performance-wise it is closer to the Étendard IVM but then with a 29 % heavier aircraft and 11 years earlier)

Best thing in my opinion is to stick to OTL data...

Quoted

Best thing in my opinion is to stick to OTL data...

If the proposed design is comparable to historical designs in terms of powerplant, aircraft weights, and performance, I'm willing to judge a proposal on its merits. The burden does then fall upon the player.

Quoted from "Rooijen10"

...one problem I see is that you significantly alter things

Naturally. I'm trying to provide you with an idea of basically similar aircraft, not saying that one plane is an exact clone of another. If I was just copy+pasting sets of data and doing a find+replace on the names, then there wouldn't be any national flavour.

As I've said multiple times now, the specs need rework to take into account how Wesworld has actually preceded.

I said "significantly alter things" and not "alter it a little for national flavour". 24% speed increase, a 173% climb rate increase, a 126% range increase. 131% mass increase, 228% thrust, 28% speed increase, 352% climb rate increase, 13% ceiling increase. Those are all significant changes to me, some even massive.

Also the Spartan Bullet is anything but similar to the de Havilland Vampire. They are lightyears apart...

Quoted from "Brockpaine"

As I've said multiple times now, the specs need rework to take into account how Wesworld has actually preceded.

What part of this statement do you not understand, Walter?

What I am trying to say is that there would have been no need to rework any specs if those alterations had not been so extreme in the first place.

Quoted from "Rooijen10"

What I am trying to say is that there would have been no need to rework any specs if those alterations had not been so extreme in the first place.

:sleeping:

... actually re-reading everything, when Brock said "As I've said multiple times now, the specs need rework to take into account how Wesworld has actually preceded." that was actually the first time that he mentioned that the specs need to be reworked. So multiple times = 0 times just like 2x2=5 and 7x13=28...

Quoted from "Rooijen10"

... actually re-reading everything, when Brock said "As I've said multiple times now, the specs need rework to take into account how Wesworld has actually preceded." that was actually the first time that he mentioned that the specs need to be reworked.

Quoted from "Brockpaine"

Some of the performance specs are probably a tad ambitious, particularly with regard to max speeds.

Quoted from "Brockpaine"

Most of the later planes are rather sketchy in nature.

I did not explicitly say those words, but I definitely indicated that the specs, as posted, need some further detailing in light of current Wesworld situations.

Wes, I'm removing your post with the specs in it, since with the out-of-date specs it's not relevant to the main portion of the post itself. I'll work up some revised specs for you tomorrow and shoot them over. I probably ought to have revised this timeline for you awhile back.

Oh - one thing I also ought to mention. When we wrote this initial timeline, the Chilean firm of Austral Motores, mentioned in the above timeline, was originally going to be more involved in developing aero-engines, particularly turboprops. Due to feedback and some changes in my own design intentions with regards to Chile, Austral Motores is mostly just license-building aero engines.

No worries Brock, my intent was to give a basic plan as to what Atlantis was doing in the absence of news. The designs themselves were also posted as a rough idea of what we were doing and certainly not the final design. I posted them to get constructive criticism rather than severely critiqued under the presumption that these are meant to be world beating, bleeding edge designs. I'd certainly appreciate some of the former and a lot less of the latter.

Quoted from "Rooijen10"

... actually re-reading everything, when Brock said "As I've said multiple times now, the specs need rework to take into account how Wesworld has actually preceded." that was actually the first time that he mentioned that the specs need to be reworked. So multiple times = 0 times just like 2x2=5 and 7x13=28...

Walter, serious, polite and constructive discussion would be greatly appreciated. Semantics over comments can be overlooked to a degree.

I added in an earlier Stormrider variant, the Mk I, which has lower performance. I also put in some more detail on the major developmental benchmarks.

Quoted

Spartan Stormrider I

Specifications
Length: 10.7 m (35 ft 1 in)
Wingspan: 12.80 m (42 ft 0 in)
Height: 4.3 m (14 ft 1 in)
Wing Area: 305 ft² (28.3 m²)
Loaded weight: 3,600 kg (7,937 lb)
Loaded weight: 5,065 kg (11,166 lb)
Engine: 1 × Spartan V12 (1,350hp) + 1 × Spartan Daedalus-II turbojet (1,700lbf thrust)
Crew : 1

Performance
Max speed: 700 km/h (434 mph / 378 knots) @ sea level
Range: 2000 km (1,242 miles) with drop tanks
Service ceiling: 12,000 m (39,370 ft)
Rate of climb: 16.8 m/s (3,307 ft/min) both engines

Armament
- 4 × 13mm MG
- 2 × 450kg bombs
- 4 × 130mm rockets

Flight Milestones
- Start of Design Work: May 1942
- First Flight: March 1944
- Entered Production: November 1944
- Entry into Service: March 1945
- Out of Production: June 1946

* * * * *

Spartan Stormrider II
An improved variant of the Stormrider, equipped with an improved petrol engine.

Specifications
Length: 10.97 m (36 ft 0 in)
Wingspan: 12.80 m (42 ft 0 in)
Height: 4.4 m (14 ft 5 in)
Wing Area: 305 ft² (28.3 m²)
Loaded weight: 3,650 kg (8,047 lb)
Loaded weight: 5,115 kg (11,277 lb)
Engine: 1 × Spartan V12 (2,000hp) + 1 × Spartan Daedalus-II turbojet (1,700lbf thrust)
Crew: 1

Performance
Max speed: 790 km/h (491 mph / 427 knots)
Range: 1,900 km (1,181 miles) with drop tanks
Service ceiling: 12,000 m (39,370 ft)
Rate of climb: 24.64 m/s (4,850 ft/min) both engines

Armament
- 4 × 13mm MG
- 2 × 450kg bombs
- 4 × 130mm rockets

Flight Milestones
- First Flight: March 1946
- Entered Production: June 1946
- Entry into Service: January 1947
- Out of Production: August 1947