WesWorld

At the moment I'm focusing designing the force that I want Chile to have by 1940 or 1943. Most of that plan consists of creating a stronger coastal defense group and a new cruiser patrol group of CLs and heavy DDs.

One of the ships I'm tossing around in my mind is an "aviation cruiser" - a ship of between 7,000 and 12,000 tons with twelve to eighteen aircraft, able to expand the patrol radius of the cruiser patrol group. I've identified my three main options:
- a small CVL
- a flight-deck cruiser
- a cruiser with seaplanes

I want this hypothetical vessel to run with the cruiser patrol group - idealized for either commerce raiding or raider hunting - and also for running with the current scouting forces. Because of that I'm seeking a 33.5 or 34 knot top speed and a fairly long range; I'd like enough aircraft to have three planes aloft at all times (except nighttime); good seaboat rating; etc. I'd like the ship to be capable of operating without escort if the situation demands it, which is why I'm reluctant to request a 34-knot CVL straight out; but floatplanes can't be operated so easily in rough seas; and a flightdeck cruiser can't do either the cruiser or carrier jobs very well.

I'm not necessarily asking for designs, but more for doctrine considerations. This ship is not intended to be a carrier, but something to enable the cruisers to carry out their jobs better when in company with this ship.

If you suggest a flightdeck cruiser, what would be a good balance of planes and armament? I'd like a flightdeck cruiser able to defeat a disguised merchant raider type vessel at least, though I'd steer her away from engaging proper cruisers and probably most destroyers.

If you suggest a full carrier, what would be the ideal airgroup size for keeping a small CAP, for instance to drive off scout bombers from overhead the cruiser group or a convoy? The cruiser group is not intended to be a carrier escort, so what kind of armament is necessary?

If you suggest a floatplane carrying cruiser, what can you suggest for foul-weather recovery? I'd like to keep the ship under weigh while recovering aircraft, and I know this will be difficult with floatplanes.

I'd ask what EXACTLY do you want the aircraft from this hypothetical vessel to do. Do you want them to attack other ships? Find other ships for the cruisers to attack (or run from)? Protect the ships from air attack? Something else?

Also, how far from a friendly base are your cruisers expecting to operate?

[Jedi Mind Trick] This is the ship you are looking for. [Jedi Mind Trick]




HMAS Enterprise Australia Light Carrier laid down 1932

36 A/C

Displacement:
10,164 t light; 10,501 t standard; 12,569 t normal; 14,224 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
681.66 ft / 670.00 ft x 67.00 ft x 20.00 ft (normal load)
207.77 m / 204.22 m x 20.42 m x 6.10 m

Armament:
6 - 6.00" / 152 mm guns (2x3 guns), 108.00lbs / 48.99kg shells, 1932 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline, all forward, 1 raised mount - superfiring
8 - 4.00" / 102 mm guns in single mounts, 32.00lbs / 14.51kg shells, 1932 Model
Dual purpose guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread
16 - 1.57" / 40.0 mm guns (4x4 guns), 1.95lbs / 0.88kg shells, 1932 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread
20 - 0.79" / 20.0 mm guns (10x2 guns), 0.24lbs / 0.11kg shells, 1932 Model
Machine guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 940 lbs / 426 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 150
6 - 21.0" / 533.4 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 2.90" / 74 mm 370.00 ft / 112.78 m 9.00 ft / 2.74 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 85 % of normal length

- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 2.90" / 74 mm 1.20" / 30 mm 2.90" / 74 mm
2nd: 1.20" / 30 mm - -

- Armour deck: 1.20" / 30 mm

Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 4 shafts, 81,081 shp / 60,486 Kw = 32.00 kts
Range 15,000nm at 15.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 3,722 tons

Complement:
593 - 771

Cost:
£3.589 million / $14.355 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 118 tons, 0.9 %
Armour: 1,248 tons, 9.9 %
- Belts: 412 tons, 3.3 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 151 tons, 1.2 %
- Armour Deck: 684 tons, 5.4 %
- Conning Tower: 0 tons, 0.0 %
Machinery: 2,393 tons, 19.0 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 4,706 tons, 37.4 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2,405 tons, 19.1 %
Miscellaneous weights: 1,700 tons, 13.5 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
19,873 lbs / 9,014 Kg = 184.0 x 6.0 " / 152 mm shells or 2.2 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.17
Metacentric height 3.7 ft / 1.1 m
Roll period: 14.7 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 71 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.18
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.35

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
and transom stern
Block coefficient: 0.490
Length to Beam Ratio: 10.00 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 29.57 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 52 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 53
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 25.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 25.00 ft / 7.62 m
- Forecastle (30 %): 21.00 ft / 6.40 m
- Mid (50 %): 21.00 ft / 6.40 m
- Quarterdeck (20 %): 21.00 ft / 6.40 m
- Stern: 21.00 ft / 6.40 m
- Average freeboard: 21.48 ft / 6.55 m
Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 84.4 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 188.7 %
Waterplane Area: 30,816 Square feet or 2,863 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 145 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 101 lbs/sq ft or 493 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.99
- Longitudinal: 1.19
- Overall: 1.01
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

OOC: Alicki/Roo original design:

Bharat offers this:
Urumi II, India Carrier laid down 1937

Displacement:
12,699 t light; 13,140 t standard; 14,625 t normal; 15,813 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
676.04 ft / 665.85 ft x 74.11 ft x 20.34 ft (normal load)
206.06 m / 202.95 m x 22.59 m x 6.20 m

Armament:
20 - 4.13" / 105 mm guns (10x2 guns), 35.32lbs / 16.02kg shells, 1937 Model
Dual purpose guns in deck mounts with hoists
on centreline ends, evenly spread, all raised mounts - superfiring
6 - 1.38" / 35.0 mm guns (3x2 guns), 1.31lbs / 0.59kg shells, 1937 Model
Dual purpose guns in deck mounts
on side, all amidships, all raised mounts - superfiring
18 - 1.38" / 35.0 mm guns (6x3 guns), 1.31lbs / 0.59kg shells, 1937 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
8 - 0.59" / 15.0 mm guns (2x4 guns), 0.10lbs / 0.05kg shells, 1937 Model
Machine guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread
8 - 0.59" / 15.0 mm guns (6 mounts), 0.10lbs / 0.05kg shells, 1937 Model
Machine guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 739 lbs / 335 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 350


Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 3.15" / 80 mm 419.95 ft / 128.00 m 10.66 ft / 3.25 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Upper: 1.97" / 50 mm 492.13 ft / 150.00 m 17.22 ft / 5.25 m
Main Belt covers 97% of normal length

- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 1.18" / 30 mm 0.59" / 15 mm 0.98" / 25 mm
2nd: 0.98" / 25 mm - -
3rd: 0.59" / 15 mm - -
4th: 0.59" / 15 mm - -

- Armour deck: 1.57" / 40 mm, Conning tower: 3.15" / 80 mm

Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 4 shafts, 107,539 shp / 80,224 Kw = 32.25 kts
Range 15,750nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 2,673 tons

Complement:
664 - 864

Cost:
£5.124 million / $20.496 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 92 tons, 0.6%
Armour: 2,340 tons, 16.0%
- Belts: 1,283 tons, 8.8%
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0%
- Armament: 51 tons, 0.3%
- Armour Deck: 967 tons, 6.6%
- Conning Tower: 41 tons, 0.3%
Machinery: 2,981 tons, 20.4%
Hull, fittings & equipment: 4,886 tons, 33.4%
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,926 tons, 13.2%
Miscellaneous weights: 2,400 tons, 16.4%

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
19,138 lbs / 8,681 Kg = 541.8 x 4.1 " / 105 mm shells or 2.2 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.21
Metacentric height 4.5 ft / 1.4 m
Roll period: 14.7 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 54 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.09
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.09

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.510
Length to Beam Ratio: 8.98 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 25.80 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 55 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 20.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 1.00 ft / 0.30 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 25.26 ft / 7.70 m
- Forecastle (27%): 22.74 ft / 6.93 m
- Mid (87%): 15.16 ft / 4.62 m
- Quarterdeck (10%): 15.16 ft / 4.62 m
- Stern: 15.16 ft / 4.62 m
- Average freeboard: 19.75 ft / 6.02 m
Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 92.7%
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 178.7%
Waterplane Area: 33,180 Square feet or 3,083 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 128%
Structure weight / hull surface area: 102 lbs/sq ft or 496 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 1.00
- Longitudinal: 1.00
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent

2025 tons = 45 planes
375 tons = extras

Quoted

Originally posted by Hrolf Hakonson
I'd ask what EXACTLY do you want the aircraft from this hypothetical vessel to do. Do you want them to attack other ships? Find other ships for the cruisers to attack (or run from)? Protect the ships from air attack? Something else?

Also, how far from a friendly base are your cruisers expecting to operate?

I'm seeing the role of this cruiser group being trade protection or, if situation demanded, commerce raiding. My planned group will match a new CA (9x10"), two or more likely three new CLs (12x6"), and the possibility of adding this aviation cruiser. I want the AvCruiser to give the group a reconnaissance edge first and foremost - hence my thought of floatplanes... but I also feel the need to recover aircraft while under weigh, which I don't think I can do with floatplanes. Hence the hybrid CL-CV consideration.

I want the group to have the resources to track a convoy for an attack, or to spot raiders and tail them; but not necessarily to attack on their own. If this ship manages a large enough air group - say 24 planes - then I'd seek some sort of capability for light CAP and bomb strikes against lone enemy merchants or raiders.

In terms of operational area, my primary operation zone runs along the Pacific coast from the Equator to Cape Horn, and westward towards Easter Island, with occasional meanderings into the South Atlantic (though that's Argentina's region and I don't particularly feel the need to patrol it). If one of my allies goes to war, I suppose I could end up in the South Pacific or SE Asia alongside the French, or a more active role towards the South Atlantic side of the world.

I'm just not certain I need or want another full carrier beyond my current plans - Mapuche should see me into the 1940s at least, and the Second Cousin scheduled for 1938 should compliment her nicely.

Most of this train of thought, though, is trying to identify "the carrier as a surface raider" rather than "the carrier as the queen of battle". Chile DOES have carrier combat experience using Mapuche as a floating airbase during the invasion of Antofagasta; I think the Bolivians even tried to bomb her once, and failed. Ithekro also put some serious thought into building a third Oyama-class AC with a flight deck, although I can't justify that expense when my DDs are so few and outdated at present.

As I said, I'm not necessarily seeking designs, but a discussion on doctrine.

-- Can the cruisers' own floatplanes do the job I want?
-- Does an aviation cruiser cost more than I benefit?
-- Is there a better alternative that I'm overlooking?

IMO I go with either a floatplane cruiser akin to OTL Japanese ships but I can see your concerns in how to recover the aircrafts; but IMO for scouting missions they should do the job fine. Still if you have any concerns in regard to that go with a CL/CV Hybrid.

Quoted

Originally posted by perdedor99
IMO I go with either a floatplane cruiser akin to OTL Japanese ships but I can see your concerns in how to recover the aircrafts; but IMO for scouting missions they should do the job fine. Still if you have any concerns in regard to that go with a CL/CV Hybrid.

Perhaps a bit like the Tone-class, then - albeit less heavily loaded?

Whatever new cruiser you have in the pipeline you could sim one as a floatplane carrier. Similar ships make for easier maintenance.

If you're concerned about stopping to recover seaplanes, but you're not interested in a full CV, you could consider Autogyros. Canada and Australia (Italy too, as I recall) have fiddled with the concept.

Quoted

Originally posted by perdedor99
Whatever new cruiser you have in the pipeline you could sim one as a floatplane carrier. Similar ships make for easier maintenance.

Right, my 12x6" plan. Drop the aft turrets and build a hanger and launch/recovery facilities...

Quoted

Originally posted by ShinRa_Inc
If you're concerned about stopping to recover seaplanes, but you're not interested in a full CV, you could consider Autogyros. Canada and Australia (Italy too, as I recall) have fiddled with the concept.

Japan also.

Quoted

Originally posted by ShinRa_Inc
If you're concerned about stopping to recover seaplanes, but you're not interested in a full CV, you could consider Autogyros. Canada and Australia (Italy too, as I recall) have fiddled with the concept.

What kind of specs are we talking about for the autogyros? Do they have the performance necessary for replacing a floatplane?

Quoted

Originally posted by Brockpaine

Quoted

Originally posted by ShinRa_Inc
If you're concerned about stopping to recover seaplanes, but you're not interested in a full CV, you could consider Autogyros. Canada and Australia (Italy too, as I recall) have fiddled with the concept.

What kind of specs are we talking about for the autogyros? Do they have the performance necessary for replacing a floatplane?

For scouting they are Ok IIRC. For any defensive/offensive operations against a decent armed enemy they are about useless.

Like Peredor said, it depends on what you're using the floatplanes for. Scouting and raiding they'd be adequate, but they wouldn't be competitive with combat planes. But if you're expecting these ships to be needing to fend off other planes, you're only real solution is a full carrier, or something like the Hurricat.

Well, I'll try some drawings and sims once I get back to my home computer, and toss up some various designs later this evening.

Quoted

Originally posted by ShinRa_Inc
If you're concerned about stopping to recover seaplanes, but you're not interested in a full CV, you could consider Autogyros. Canada and Australia (Italy too, as I recall) have fiddled with the concept.

Iberia and Italy(iirc) are both fielding autogyros in their carriers, in Iberia's case principally as liason/rescue aircraft.

I'm actually working on a cruiser sized autogyro carrier for next year, as an asw leader (think of the Soviet "Moskva", but in the 30's!!)

Quoted

Originally posted by Commodore Green
I'm actually working on a cruiser sized autogyro carrier for next year, as an asw leader (think of the Soviet "Moskva", but in the 30's!!)

That's actually one of the ships I had in mind as inspiration, along with that Terentrian hybrid carrier from The Pirates of Dar es Salaam.

Quoted

Originally posted by Brockpaine
That's actually one of the ships I had in mind as inspiration, along with that Terentrian hybrid carrier from The Pirates of Dar es Salaam.

Not familiar with that one, any pics?

Quoted

Originally posted by Commodore Green

Quoted

Originally posted by Brockpaine
That's actually one of the ships I had in mind as inspiration, along with that Terentrian hybrid carrier from The Pirates of Dar es Salaam.

Not familiar with that one, any pics?

There used to be, but the site with all the stories and the most drawings is... in Internet La-La Land.

Incidentally, it seems Red Admiral once proposed a design here based on the carrier from Tarrantry. Pic links are, once again, broken... but I can see at least one springsharp of a hybrid, now.

The vast majority of Chile's maritime traffic runs up the coast towards Panama but some goes across towards the Pacific Islands, New Zealand and Australia. Theres a very defined shipping lane(s) and huge amounts of space to hide in. Your problem is going to be finding an opposing ship and bringing it to contact. I'd go for a proper carrier with an airgroup of around 20 scout-bombers and a few fighters with lots of provisions for stores and aviation fuel. Autogyros have a rather short range and limited lifting capacity.