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Bulgarian Air Force 1941

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Brockpaine

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1

Monday, June 13th 2011, 8:43pm

Bulgarian Air Force 1941 OOB

Gentlemen:

Here's the updated order of battle for the Bulgarian Air Force. The last one posted, in 1938, had a few player ignorance errors (as well as player memory loss errors), and this order of battle aims to fix them.

Aircraft quantities are expressed in two ways in this order of battle: "line strength" and "procured strength". Line strength defines aircraft actually assigned *to* the unit. For instance, the line strength of a fighter yato (squadron) is sixteen fighters and two spares. Procured Strength defines the aircraft acquired to meet line strength plus all reserve and attrition needs. For instance, a fighter yato's line strength is sixteen aircraft with two spares, but the yato's procured strength is twenty-four aircraft. In some units such as transports, there is no difference between line strength and procured strength. In the detailed order of battle, I mark the differences between line and procured strength as: "18/24" for a fighter yato.

Notes:
- In the past, I overbuilt the VNVV due to my own flubs when starting the game and a bit of buildup that was supposed to run in the prelude to the Yugoslav War.
- I didn't keep the best notes on what I bought and had to track some stuff down - and because of that I occasionally over-bought or under-bought equipment. For example, I bought 28 Bf108s when this OOB calls for 30, and I bought 168 Storchs when this OOB calls for 128.
- There are five ADCs (Air Defense Command sectors) in Bulgaria (Sofia, Western Danube, Eastern Danube, Rhodope, and Maritsa). The Sofia, Western Danube and Rhodope ADCs have one fighter orlyak each, while the Eastern Danube and Maritsa command has one shared fighter orlyak. However, Eastern Danube and Maritsa can call on backup from the Maritime Fighter Orlyak and the Strike Aviation Brigade.
- The Strike Aviation Brigade constitutes the "tip of the spear" in that it's designed and trained for potential strategic deployments; but it also serves as Bulgaria's combat reserve.
- The 1st Transport Orlyak was converted from a bomber unit equipped with KB-309 Papagals, which were used more as transports than light bombers. The KB-309s were ordered retired in 1940 but are awaiting replacement.
- One fighter yato and one tactical bomber yato were formed with female pilots.

Brockpaine

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Monday, June 13th 2011, 9:25pm

Fighter Yato
- 16 fighters + 2 spares "line strength" (24 procured strength)
- 1 yato utility aircraft

Fighter Orlyak
- 3 fighter yatos
- 2 utility aircraft
- Total: 54/72 fighters, 5 utility aircraft

Maritime Fighter Orlyak
- 3 fighter yatos
- 1 flying boat yato
- 2 utility aircraft
- Total: 54/72 fighters, 12 flying boats, 5 utility aircraft

* * * * *


Bomber Yato
- 12 bombers "line strength" (18 procured strength)
- 1 yato utility aircraft

Bomber Orlyak
- 3 bomber yatos
- 2 utility aircraft
- Total: 36/54 bombers, 5 utility aircraft

Tactical Bomber Orlyak
- 3 bomber yatos
- 1 recon-liaison yato
- 2 utility aircraft
- Total: 36/54 bombers, 12/16 spotter-reconnaissance aircraft, 5 utility aircraft

* * * * *


Recon-Liaison Yato (Army Cooperation)
- 12 spotter-reconnaissance aircraft "line strength", 16 procured total

Army Cooperation Orlyak
- 4 recon-liaison yatos
- 4 utility aircraft
- Total: 48/64 spotter-reconnaissance aircraft, 4 utility aircraft

* * * * *


Strike Aviation Brigade:
- 4 fighter yatos
- 2 bomber yatos
- 4 utility aircraft
- 8 reconnaissance aircraft
- Total: 72/96 fighters, 24/36 bombers, 8 utility aircraft, 8 reconnaissance aircraft

Brockpaine

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Monday, June 13th 2011, 9:36pm

Quoted

Quoted

Aggregate VNVV Order of Battle, 1941:
- 1x Strike Aviation Brigade
- 4x Fighter Orlyaks
- 1x Maritime Fighter Orlyak
- 2x Tactical Bomber Orlyaks
- 1x Bomber Orlyak
- 4x Army Cooperation Orlyaks
- 1x Transport Orlyak
- 6x Military Flying Schools

Total Strength: 1,027 aircraft (procured strength) plus trainers (456 fighters, 198 bombers, 372 other types)


Quoted

Strike Aviation Brigade
1st Fighter Orlyak
-- 3rd Fighter Yato (18/24x DAR-12, 1x Bf-108 Taifun)
-- 4th Fighter Yato (18/24x DAR-12, 1x Bf-108 Taifun)
-- 10th Fighter Yato (18/24x DAR-12, 1x Bf-108 Taifun)
-- 16th Fighter (Heavy) Yato (18/24x Eclipse Hurricanes, 1x Bf-108 Taifun)
1st Bomber Orlyak
-- 4th Bomber Yato (12/18x Accrisius DB-1, 1x Bf-108 Taifun)
-- 8th Bomber Yato (12/18x Accrisius DB-1, 1x Bf-108 Taifun)
17th Reconnaissance-Liaison Yato (8x KB-11 Fazan)
3rd Staff-Utility Yato (8x KB-9 Bekas)

2nd Fighter Orlyak
1st Fighter Yato (18/24x Spitfire MkI, 1x Bf-108 Taifun)
11th Fighter Yato (18/24x Spitfire MkI, 1x Bf-108 Taifun)
14th Fighter Yato (18/24x Spitfire MkI, 1x Bf-108 Taifun)
1st Staff Yato (2x KB-9 Bekas)

3rd Fighter Orlyak
6th Fighter Yato (18/24x Spitfire MkIIs or MkIIIs, 1x Bf-108 Taifun)
17th Fighter Yato (18/24x Spitfire MkIIs or MkIIIs, 1x Bf-108 Taifun)
18th Fighter Yato (18/24x Spitfire MkIIs or MkIIIs, 1x Bf-108 Taifun)
2nd Staff Yato (2x KB-9 Bekas)

4th Fighter Orlyak
7th Fighter Yato (18/24x Spitfire MkIIIs, 1x Bf-108 Taifun)
9th Fighter Yato (18/24x Spitfire MkIIIs, 1x Bf-108 Taifun)
13th Fighter Yato (18/24x Spitfire MkIIIs, 1x Bf-108 Taifun)
4th Staff Yato (2x KB-9 Bekas)

5th Fighter Orlyak
5th Fighter Yato (18/24x Spitfire MkIIIs, 1x Bf-108 Taifun)
15th Fighter Yato (18/24x Spitfire MkIIIs, 1x Bf-108 Taifun)
19th Fighter Yato (18/24x Spitfire MkIIIs, 1x Bf-108 Taifun)
5th Staff Yato (2x KB-9 Bekas)

6th Fighter (Maritime) Orlyak
2nd Fighter (Maritime) Yato (18/24x Firefly MkIs, 1x Bf-108 Taifun)
8th Fighter (Maritime) Yato (18/24x Firefly MkIs, 1x Bf-108 Taifun)
12th Fighter (Maritime) Yato (18/24x Firefly MkIs, 1x Bf-108 Taifun)
1st Flying Boat Yato (12x Dornier Do24)
9th Staff Yato (2x KB-9 Bekas)

2nd Bomber Orlyak
3rd Bomber Yato (12/18x Spartan Sp-21Ms, 1x Bf-108 Taifun)
7th Bomber Yato (12/18x Spartan Sp-21Ms, 1x Bf-108 Taifun)
11th Bomber Yato (12/18x Spartan Sp-21As, 1x Bf-108 Taifun)
8th Staff Yato (2x KB-9 Bekas)

3rd Bomber (Tactical) Orlyak
1st Bomber Yato (12/18x DAR-14Sz Dogans, 1x Bf-108 Taifun)
2nd Bomber Yato (12/18x DAR-14Sz Dogans, 1x Bf-108 Taifun)
6th Bomber Yato (12/18x DAR-14Sz Dogans, 1x Bf-108 Taifun)
17th Reconnaissance-Liaison Yato (8/12x Fieseler Fi 156)
7th Staff Yato (2x KB-9 Bekas)

4th Bomber (Tactical) Orlyak
5th Bomber Yato (12/18x DAR-14Sz Dogans, 1x Bf-108 Taifun)
9th Bomber Yato (12/18x DAR-14Sz Dogans, 1x Bf-108 Taifun)
10th Bomber Yato (12/18x DAR-14Sz Dogans, 1x Bf-108 Taifun)
18th Reconnaissance-Liaison Yato (8/12x Fieseler Fi 156)
11th Staff Yato (2x KB-9 Bekas)

1st Army Cooperation Orlyak
2nd Reconnaissance-Liaison Yato (12/16x KB-11 Fazan)
3rd Reconnaissance-Liaison Yato (12/16x KB-11 Fazan)
6th Reconnaissance-Liaison Yato (12/16x KB-11 Fazan)
14th Reconnaissance-Liaison Yato (12/16x KB-11 Fazan)
6th Staff Yato (4x KB-5 Tchutchuliga-III)

2nd Army Cooperation Orlyak
4th Reconnaissance-Liaison Yato (12/16x Fieseler Fi 156)
10th Reconnaissance-Liaison Yato (12/16x Fieseler Fi 156)
13th Reconnaissance-Liaison Yato (12/16x Fieseler Fi 156)
15th Reconnaissance-Liaison Yato (12/16x Fieseler Fi 156)
10th Staff Yato (4x KB-5 Tchutchuliga-III)

3rd Army Cooperation Orlyak
1st Reconnaissance-Liaison Yato (12/16x Fieseler Fi 156)
5th Reconnaissance-Liaison Yato (12/16x Fieseler Fi 156)
11th Reconnaissance-Liaison Yato (12/16x Fieseler Fi 156)
12th Reconnaissance-Liaison Yato (12/16x Fieseler Fi 156)
12th Staff Yato (4x KB-5 Tchutchuliga-III)

4th Army Cooperation Orlyak
7th Reconnaissance-Liaison Yato (12/16x KB-5 Tchutchuliga-III)
8th Reconnaissance-Liaison Yato (12/16x KB-5 Tchutchuliga-III)
9th Reconnaissance-Liaison Yato (12/16x KB-5 Tchutchuliga-III)
16th Reconnaissance-Liaison Yato (12/16x KB-5 Tchutchuliga-III)
13th Staff Yato (4x KB-5 Tchutchuliga-III)

1st Transport Orlyak
1st Transport Yato (12x KB-309 Papagal, 1x KB-9 Bekas)
2nd Transport Yato (12x KB-309 Papagal, 1x KB-9 Bekas)
Royal Flight (1x DeHavilland Flamingo)

Bozhurishte Military Flying School
Conducts most recruit induction and ab-initio/primary training. Also includes the flight mechanics school. Bozhurishte was Bulgaria's first air force base, but no longer hosts line units, being solely engaged in pilot training.

Graf Ignatievo Military Flying School
Conducts ab-initio and primary training, as well as some intermediate training. Opened 1935 to assist Bozhurishte in meeting training quotas.

Uzundzhovo Military Flying School
Opened 1937, Uzundzhovo conducts some ab-initio and basic training, but specializes in aircrew training and aviation-spotter training.

Bezmer Military Flying School
Flying school associated with the Strike Aviation Brigade. Bezmer conducts finishing training for intermediate recruits and provides induction into line units.

Krumovo Military Flying School
Conducts ab-initio and basic training, opened 1937.

Kolarovo Military Flying School
Kolarovo will be opened 1941 for advanced fighter pilot training, using retired fighter aircraft.

Brockpaine

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Monday, June 13th 2011, 10:08pm

[SIZE=3]Breakdown of Aircraft:[/SIZE]
Fighters
- DAR-12: 72 planes procured to 1/1/41
- Spitfire MkI: 72 planes procured (finished)
- Spitfire MkII: 36 planes procured (finished)
- Spitfire MkIII: 204 planes procured to 1/1/41
- Eclipse Hurricane: 24 planes procured (finished)
- Fairey Firefly: 72 planes procured to 1/1/41

Bombers
- Spartan Sp-21M: 48 planes procured (finished)
- Spartan Sp-21A: 36 planes procured (finished)
- Accrisius DB-1/DB-1N: 36 planes procured (finished)
- DAR-14Sz: 108 planes procured to 1/1/41

Other
- Bf-108 Taifun: 30 planes procured to 1/1/41
- KB-9 Bekas: 26 planes procured to 1/1/41
- Fieseler Fi 156: 162 planes procured to 1/1/41
- KB-5 Tchutchuliga-III: 80 planes procured to 1/1/41
- KB-11 Fazan: 72 planes procured to 1/1/41
- Dornier Do 24: 12 planes procured to 1/1/41
- KB-309 Papagal: 24 planes procured (finished)
- DH95 Flamingo: 1 planes procured to 1/1/41

Trainers
- DAR-13 Kanarche: 72 gliders procured to 1/1/41
- DAR-3 Garvan-III: 144 planes procured to 1/1/41
- Miles Master: 36 planes procured to 1/1/41
- DAR-7 SS.1 Koketka: 48 planes procured to 1/1/41
- Fw-58: 12 planes procured to 1/1/41
- Fw-44: 36 planes procured to 1/1/41
- Bf-109 Strela: 32 planes procured (finished, reserve)

Brockpaine

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Monday, June 13th 2011, 10:36pm

Incidentally, here's an interesting little tidbit.

[SIZE=3]Breakdown of Aircraft by Country of Origin:[/SIZE]
Bulgaria: 646 planes (43%)
Great Britain: 421 planes (28%)
Germany: 284 planes (19%)
Atlantis: 120 planes (8%)
Unknown: 24 planes (2%)

The "unknown" planes are the Eclipse Hurricanes, who's country of origin is... rather nebulous. Also, while the Bulgarian-built planes are numerically impressive, the vast majority of them are DAR-3 and KB-5 biplanes, DAR-7 light monoplanes, and DAR-13 gliders.

BruceDuncan

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Monday, June 13th 2011, 11:32pm

A very thorough and illuminating report. I had not realized that Bulgaria's air strength reached such numbers.

Brockpaine

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Monday, June 13th 2011, 11:47pm

[SIZE=3]1941 Requests for Proposals:[/SIZE]

RFP #1106 / KB-309 Replacement
The VNVV is seeking aircraft to replace the obsolete KB.309 Papagal in the transport role. Successful contenders should demonstrate:
- the capacity to carry three tons of payload, 24 troops, or 18 passengers
- economical operation and maintenance costs
- a range not to be less than 1,500km
- a side cargo-loading door no less than 2 meters wide
- the capability to take off from a 500 meter grass runway

Paper proposals shall be evaluated by the VNVV starting February 1st, 1941. Two final contenders shall be selected March 1st, 1941 for demonstrator trials, pending final purchase approval.

RFP #1107 / Sp21A / Sp21M Replacement
The VNVV is seeking aircraft to replace the Spartan Sp21A and Sp21M Vanquish-II medium bombers currently in service. At the present time, no money has been set aside for aircraft acquisition and the Sp21A and Sp21M remain in service; thus bidders should be aware that procurement may be pushed to 1942 or beyond. Therefore, paper projects with 1942 or 1943 delivery dates will be entertained. Successful contenders shall demonstrate:
- a cruise speed of 500 km/h (310mph) and a maximum speed of 550 km/h (342 mph)
- a flight ceiling of 9,000 meters (29,500 feet) or greater
- a bomb load of no less than 1,000kg
- a range greater than 2,000 km (1,243 miles)
- an armament appropriate to the aircraft's capabilities
- the capability to carry aerial cameras for high-speed high-altitude photo-reconnaissance

Paper proposals shall be evaluated by the VNVV starting February 1st, 1941. Pending the retirement of the Vanquish-II or the approval of funds for replacement, no final contenders shall be chosen.

RFP #1108 / Accrisius DB-1/DB-1N Replacement
The VNVV is seeking aircraft to replace the Accrisius DB-1 dive bombers currently in service. At the present time, no money has been set aside for aircraft acquisition and the DB-1 remain in service; thus bidders should be aware that procurement may be pushed to 1942 or beyond. Therefore, paper projects with 1942 or 1943 delivery dates will be entertained. Successful contenders shall demonstrate:
- a cruise speed of 400 km/h (249mph) and a maximum speed of 450 km/h (280 mph)
- a bomb load of no less than 400kg including potential for air-to-ground wing rockets
- a forward-mounted gun armament of no less than 2x20mm cannon (cannon preferred to machine guns)
- a range greater than 700 km (434 miles)
- primary armour suitable for protection against 8mm and 13mm rifle/machine gun rounds at 300m range

Paper proposals shall be evaluated by the VNVV starting February 1st, 1941, comparing directly with the DAR-14Sz Dogan attack aircraft currently in service.

Brockpaine

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Monday, June 13th 2011, 11:57pm

French response to RFPs
[SIZE=1]Note: Due to my great reluctance to buy things from my other countries, it is not highly likely any of these proposals will be accepted.[/SIZE]

RFP #1107: Hanriot H.250 Foudre
RFP #1108: Breguet Br.890 Épaulard (proposed de-navalized with 2x20mm HS.404 in wings)

Brockpaine

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Tuesday, June 14th 2011, 12:01am

Quoted

Originally posted by BruceDuncan
A very thorough and illuminating report. I had not realized that Bulgaria's air strength reached such numbers.

Thanks. Yes - the VNVV is... quite large, I'm afraid; I over-expanded it in the past few years when the Balkans looked more unfriendly. The size was, frankly, one of my biggest flubs.

BruceDuncan

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Tuesday, June 14th 2011, 2:52am

German Response to Bulgarian RFPs

RFP #1106 / KB-309 Replacement

The firm of Blohm und Voss submits a new design, the Bv146, a military derivative of its Bv144 commercial airliner; this design is presently being pursued as a private venture by the firm, and a prototype is expected to fly in the early spring of 1941. It features seventy-five percent commonality with the civil airliner; the chief differences being an enlarged freight door and the elimination of cabin pressurisation. Freight payload is projected to be 3,500 kg; alternatively up to twenty-eight troops, twenty paratroops or 22 passengers in commercial-style could be accommodated.



RFP #1108 / Accrisius DB-1/DB-1N Replacement

The Henschel firm submits its Hs129 twin-engine ground attack aircraft for consideration; while the DB-1 is a single-engine aircraft the Hs129 offers twin-engine reliability and a proven combat record. The aircraft can carry a wide variety of ordnance and can be adapted to customer specifications. The aircraft is in production for the Luftwaffe and for export and early delivery positions are available to meet Bulgarian funding requirements.

Sachmle

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Tuesday, June 14th 2011, 3:20am

Quoted

The "unknown" planes are the Eclipse Hurricanes, who's country of origin is... rather nebulous.


IIRC, one of the last things Lloyd (Tanthalas) did before he disappeared was 'move' Eclipse to his last country, which was Yugoslavia.

BruceDuncan

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Tuesday, June 14th 2011, 3:36am

Quoted

Originally posted by Sachmle

Quoted

The "unknown" planes are the Eclipse Hurricanes, who's country of origin is... rather nebulous.


IIRC, one of the last things Lloyd (Tanthalas) did before he disappeared was 'move' Eclipse to his last country, which was Yugoslavia.


<Looks around nervously>

First I've heard of it... and it's not here currently...

I'd say that they've gone out of business and not left a forwarding address.

HoOmAn

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Tuesday, June 14th 2011, 9:50pm

Would you mind providing total numbers of combat aircraft, transports and trainers please? I could probably calculate that from your posts but I am sure you have those values at hand.

Thanks.

Brockpaine

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Tuesday, June 14th 2011, 10:22pm

Quoted

Originally posted by HoOmAn
Would you mind providing total numbers of combat aircraft, transports and trainers please? I could probably calculate that from your posts but I am sure you have those values at hand.

Thanks.

Fighters: 480 planes (24 twin engined)
Bombers: 228 planes (84 twin engined)
Observation/Reconnaissance: 314 planes (0 twin engined)
Liaison: 56 planes (26 twin engined)
Transport: 25 planes (25 twin engined) (24 effectively retired)
Training: 72 gliders and 308 planes (12 twin engined)
Total all categories: 1,483 aircraft and gliders (171 twin engined) including reserve/stored aircraft, parts hulks, etc.

You need to remember that many of these planes can cross over categories quite easily. For instance - 216 of the 308 training aircraft can carry an effective weapons load, and the DAR-3 Garvan-III, used as a primary trainer, is classed as a light bomber as well.

HoOmAn

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Wednesday, June 15th 2011, 7:28am

Thanks. This is an impressive force.

Do you remember the discussion about the Mexican Airforce? IT had two components - technology and size. Technology aside, the point was raised that Mexico was planned to have an airforce too large for a country with only 3,5 factories (as an indicator for industrial strength). Now, Bulgaria has 3 factories and her airforce is as large or even larger than Mexico's before the discussions kicked in in. Remember the number of front line a/c we agreed on as reasonable for Mexico among moderators.

Based on that, and to be fair among players, you either have to downsize Bulgaria's airforce or we need to raise the limits for Mexico and other comparable countries.

thesmilingassassin

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Wednesday, June 15th 2011, 10:21am

Just to jog my memory what were the limits set on Mexico?

Sachmle

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Wednesday, June 15th 2011, 3:32pm

Not trying to thread jack..

but for comparison Greece (15 factories) only has

Total Aircraft: 1,229 [865 in service (89 twin engine, 4 quad engine) and 364 on/to be on order (0 twin engine)]

Fighters: 357 total (0 twin engine)
36 Gloster Gladiators
24 Hawker Hurricanes
65 Boulton-Paul Resistants
72 KEA Ierax
60 Gloster Sea Gladiators
100 Gloster Gannets

Bombers: 292 total (36 twin engine)
36 Northrop Nomads
36 Douglas Havocs
100 Fairey Swordfish
48 Fariey Barracudas
72 Curtis Hawks

Reconnaissance: 121 total (48 twin engine, 4 quad engine)
12 KEA Nomádes
12 Westland Lysanders
48 Supermarine Stranraers
4 Short Sunderlands
45 Hawker Osprey

Tranpsort: 5 total (5 twin engine)
3 De Havilland Dragon Rapides
2 Lockheed Electras

Trainers: 90 total (0 twin engine)
34 Avro 504s
24 De Havilland TIger Moths
10 Avro Tutors
7 Avro Sea Tutors
15 North American NA-16s

On order/to be ordered: 388 (0 twin engine)
Fighters: 200 (0 twin engine)
100 Fairey Fireflys
100 Morane-Saulnier 450s

Bombers: 24 total (0 twin engine)
24 Fairey Barracudas

Reconnaissance: 40 (0 twin engine)
40 Lioré-et-Olivier LeO-400

Training: 100 (0 twin engine)
48 Miles Magisters
12 Miles Mentors
40 Morane-Saulnier 470s

This post has been edited 1 times, last edit by "Sachmle" (Jun 15th 2011, 3:33pm)

Brockpaine

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Wednesday, June 15th 2011, 5:13pm

Quoted

Originally posted by thesmilingassassin
Just to jog my memory what were the limits set on Mexico?

Hoo mandated four hundred combat aircraft and a hundred trainers.

Quoted

Originally posted by HoOmAn
Thanks. This is an impressive force.

Do you remember the discussion about the Mexican Airforce? IT had two components - technology and size. Technology aside, the point was raised that Mexico was planned to have an airforce too large for a country with only 3,5 factories (as an indicator for industrial strength). Now, Bulgaria has 3 factories and her airforce is as large or even larger than Mexico's before the discussions kicked in in. Remember the number of front line a/c we agreed on as reasonable for Mexico among moderators.

Based on that, and to be fair among players, you either have to downsize Bulgaria's airforce or we need to raise the limits for Mexico and other comparable countries.

Several points, in order.

1. I don't recall ever personally complaining about the size of the Mexican Air Force. I did remark on the difficulties their penny-packet orders would harm them in-character, but I generally limited my complaints to the aircraft technology itself.
2. We did not all agree as moderators about any reasonable numbers for the Mexican Air Force. You told us the numbers you were mandating for Foxy, and asked Wes, ShinRa and I to hold our comments until you had achieved a final settlement with him yet, which to the best of my knowledge has not been made yet (or at least has not been shared with me if it was). I did offer my opinion that an order of battle, such as the above, would be useful in determining those numbers, but otherwise abided by your request to hold comments. Please do not misrepresent me.
3. I have made no bones about the fact that I feel the Bulgarian Air Force is unrealistically large, and that it was my errors which made it so. The growth was the result of several coincident errors. First, shoddy bookkeeping which resulted in me placing orders of aircraft, misplacing my numbers, and ordering more. Second, a lack of knowledge when starting up about the requisite number of reserve and trainer aircraft required. Third, a misunderstanding of the political situation in the Balkans due to the poor backstory setup in the Balkans - a backstory we've only recently put right, and which alters the political calculus for Bulgaria. I've stated before my intent to downsize the VNVV (and the Bulgarian Army) in accordance with that new situation, but I'd also decided against retconning anything based on that.
4. Who's adjudicating what's too large, too small, or just right? Up til now it's been the player, taking into account any criticism they receive. If we wish to be fair among players, then we need to discuss this with the player base as a whole and set out some rules or a "gentleman's agreement" about what constitutes 'acceptable' or 'unacceptable' air strength. But as people are so fond of pointing out "this is just a naval game": some people don't want to outline their air force orders of battle, and up til now that's always been acceptable to most here. If we're going to establish a system by which players are mandated to downsize or alter their air forces (or army forces or anything else "not naval"), then it needs to be universal and not mod-mandated.

Should the players as a whole decide to create a mutually-agreeable in-game method of adjudicating air assets (and other armed strength), then I'll be happy to retcon all of the above and replace it with something more appropriate for Bulgaria. Until such a time as we choose to do that, I respectfully decline to deviate from my existing plan to resize the VNVV.

HoOmAn

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Wednesday, June 15th 2011, 8:53pm

Quoted

Originally posted by Brockpaine

Quoted

Originally posted by thesmilingassassin
Just to jog my memory what were the limits set on Mexico?

Hoo mandated four hundred combat aircraft and a hundred trainers.


That was moderator internal information. Thanks for posting it in public.

I had a reasons for aiming so low and I provided the moderators those reasons during a chat session. I remember it well and I think you were one of those online. The approach was approved by the moderators.

Quoted

Several points, in order.

1. I don't recall ever personally complaining about the size of the Mexican Air Force. I did remark on the difficulties their penny-packet orders would harm them in-character, but I generally limited my complaints to the aircraft technology itself.


I do not recall to have said _you_ complaint about the size of the Mexican Air Force, but the point was raised and I remember the reactions. It was one of the reasons size had been a point in my discussion with Foxy and my intention to get backup by the other moderators (see above).

Quoted


2. We did not all agree as moderators about any reasonable numbers for the Mexican Air Force. You told us the numbers you were mandating for Foxy, and asked Wes, ShinRa and I to hold our comments until you had achieved a final settlement with him yet, which to the best of my knowledge has not been made yet (or at least has not been shared with me if it was). I did offer my opinion that an order of battle, such as the above, would be useful in determining those numbers, but otherwise abided by your request to hold comments. Please do not misrepresent me.


The issue with the Mexican Air Force is not yet solved and an OOB not created. However, raising these points is misleading here. Only the issue of Bulgaria's Air Force size is what I address here. And I seem to be right because you agree on that point below.

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3. I have made no bones about the fact that I feel the Bulgarian Air Force is unrealistically large, and that it was my errors which made it so. The growth was the result of several coincident errors. First, shoddy bookkeeping which resulted in me placing orders of aircraft, misplacing my numbers, and ordering more. Second, a lack of knowledge when starting up about the requisite number of reserve and trainer aircraft required. Third, a misunderstanding of the political situation in the Balkans due to the poor backstory setup in the Balkans - a backstory we've only recently put right, and which alters the political calculus for Bulgaria. I've stated before my intent to downsize the VNVV (and the Bulgarian Army) in accordance with that new situation, but I'd also decided against retconning anything based on that.


If you are already aware that your Air Force is too large, I would have expected you to take action and downsize it. IC reasons can easily be generated if it should happen as part of a story. Otherwise errors can easily be modified simply by stating the corrections to the community. There is no need to do it IC. WHen you post a ship design with errors, you do correct them OOC also, don´t you?

Also, you could also have added a comment to your initial post to make everybody remember the size of your Air Force is too large. That would have avoided irritations about an error already known to you.

Alas, what is your way forward regarding the Bulgarian Air Force? What size do you consider realistic and why? How do you plan to get there and when?

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4. Who's adjudicating what's too large, too small, or just right? Up til now it's been the player, taking into account any criticism they receive. If we wish to be fair among players, then we need to discuss this with the player base as a whole and set out some rules or a "gentleman's agreement" about what constitutes 'acceptable' or 'unacceptable' air strength. But as people are so fond of pointing out "this is just a naval game": some people don't want to outline their air force orders of battle, and up til now that's always been acceptable to most here. If we're going to establish a system by which players are mandated to downsize or alter their air forces (or army forces or anything else "not naval"), then it needs to be universal and not mod-mandated.


It was not the player base that posted about the Bulgarian Air Force and it is not the community as a whole who is responsible for layout of the Bulgarian Air Force. It is you, so I challenged you on it. As you said, it is the particular player who should take into account criticism. It is up to the player base to provide feedback and support either argument - but the person to take decision and action is you. It is not a matter of having a rule set in general.

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Should the players as a whole decide to create a mutually-agreeable in-game method of adjudicating air assets (and other armed strength), then I'll be happy to retcon all of the above and replace it with something more appropriate for Bulgaria. Until such a time as we choose to do that, I respectfully decline to deviate from my existing plan to resize the VNVV.


To sum it up: You will not modify your numbers until there is a general rule set? Or else, what is your plan?

If you so vehemently request the involvement of the player base and a rule set (as the only way to achieve fairness), can we expect you to provide a proposal for such rules?

Btw, "retcon" is not a word known to me or my dic. I guess it is some kind of slang?

TexanCowboy

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Wednesday, June 15th 2011, 9:02pm

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Originally posted by HoOmAn
Btw, "retcon" is not a word known to me or my dic. I guess it is some kind of slang?


Yes, "retcon" is a form of slang. It means to modify something that has already occured in the past of this sim, with all the changes that that would imply. For example, retconning Australia out of the Cleito Treaty at the beginning of this sim, retconning a sort of aircraft out of existance, etc.
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