WesWorld

Several 1939 projects have been pushed back by 12-18 months due to budgeting issues arising from the Serapis class, and other issues, but a more firm schedule has been worked out for 1940, going into 1941;

A further 20 S class destroyers have been obtained from the Royal Navy, and will be converted to the same design as the previous 28 members of the class, which will all be redesignated as Sloops, and operated in four ship squadrons with shifted emphasis from fleet escort (Though they may be employed as such when needed until more Tribals are completed) towards a focus on ASW and Trade protection.

A further 8 Tribal (Batch III) class Fleet Destroyers have been laid down in Janurary, and expected to complete this year. The previous 8-gun design has been rejected by the Admiralty in favor of a 6-gun design, with revised layout and greatly increased range.

The Serapis class Frigates will complete early in 1940, after delays and a minor scandal.

HMCS Furious, transferred last year from the Royal Navy, was intended to be refitted immediately, but a combination of budget concerns, and the crisis in Southeast Asia delayed her dockyard availability, with the planned Modernization slightly revised and scheduled for her return from the Far East

The Admiralty has also concluded that the Hawkins class cruisers (Including the newly arrived Cavendish from Australia) are all past due for some manner of modernization, and tentatively scheduled to be sent to the dockyards in late 1940. The exact details of their refits are still being debated. (I have an idea of what to do with them, but feel free to suggest and discuss amongst yourselves)

HMCS Furious, Canadian [Ex-British] Aircraft Carrier laid down 1915 (Engine 1940)

Displacement:
24,000 t light; 25,037 t standard; 28,362 t normal; 31,022 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
740.29 ft / 735.00 ft x 89.00 ft (Bulges 96.00 ft) x 24.00 ft (normal load)
225.64 m / 224.03 m x 27.13 m (Bulges 29.26 m) x 7.32 m

Armament:
8 - 5.50" / 140 mm guns (4x2 guns), 83.19lbs / 37.73kg shells, 1940 Model
Automatic rapid fire guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on side, all amidships, all raised mounts - superfiring
10 - 5.50" / 140 mm guns in single mounts, 83.19lbs / 37.73kg shells, 1935 Model
Dual purpose guns in deck mounts
on side ends, evenly spread
64 - 1.57" / 40.0 mm guns (8x8 guns), 1.95lbs / 0.88kg shells, 1935 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
48 - 0.79" / 20.0 mm guns (24x2 guns), 0.24lbs / 0.11kg shells, 1935 Model
Machine guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
Weight of broadside 1,634 lbs / 741 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 450

Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 4.00" / 102 mm 565.00 ft / 172.21 m 12.00 ft / 3.66 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 118 % of normal length

- Torpedo Bulkhead and Bulges:
2.00" / 51 mm 480.00 ft / 146.30 m 22.00 ft / 6.71 m

- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 2.00" / 51 mm 1.00" / 25 mm 2.00" / 51 mm
2nd: 1.00" / 25 mm - -

- Armour deck: 2.00" / 51 mm

Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 4 shafts, 182,120 shp / 135,861 Kw = 33.00 kts
Range 15,000nm at 15.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 5,985 tons

Complement:
1,092 - 1,420

Cost:
£2.483 million / $9.933 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 221 tons, 0.8 %
Armour: 3,862 tons, 13.6 %
- Belts: 1,120 tons, 3.9 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 781 tons, 2.8 %
- Armament: 213 tons, 0.7 %
- Armour Deck: 1,747 tons, 6.2 %
- Conning Tower: 0 tons, 0.0 %
Machinery: 4,870 tons, 17.2 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 9,123 tons, 32.2 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 4,362 tons, 15.4 %
Miscellaneous weights: 5,925 tons, 20.9 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
43,014 lbs / 19,511 Kg = 517.1 x 5.5 " / 140 mm shells or 5.7 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.27
Metacentric height 6.4 ft / 2.0 m
Roll period: 15.9 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 51 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.09
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.13

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has low quarterdeck
Block coefficient: 0.586
Length to Beam Ratio: 7.66 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 27.11 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 58 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 45
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 10.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 30.00 ft / 9.14 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 28.00 ft / 8.53 m
- Mid (50 %): 28.00 ft / 8.53 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 18.00 ft / 5.49 m (28.00 ft / 8.53 m before break)
- Stern: 18.00 ft / 5.49 m
- Average freeboard: 26.66 ft / 8.13 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 111.2 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 230.7 %
Waterplane Area: 47,229 Square feet or 4,388 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 133 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 130 lbs/sq ft or 632 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.97
- Longitudinal: 1.26
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent

Improved light-weight Automated Dual-Purpose twin 5.5" guns simmed as 1940 Automatics.

5200 tons for 72 planes
100 tons for spare planes and parts
100 tons for CIC facilities and other flagship amenities.
100 tons for Radar and other equipment
300 tons for Miscellaneous fleet stores.
25 tons for UNREP gear
40 tons for additional weight of DP automatic mounts (10 tons per)
50 tons for Miscellaneous Amenities and Superior this-and-that.

HMCS Onondaga, Canadian Destroyer laid down 1940

Displacement:
2,500 t light; 2,659 t standard; 3,040 t normal; 3,344 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
395.36 ft / 390.00 ft x 36.00 ft x 16.00 ft (normal load)
120.51 m / 118.87 m x 10.97 m x 4.88 m

Armament:
6 - 5.50" / 140 mm guns (3x2 guns), 83.19lbs / 37.73kg shells, 1940 Model
Automatic rapid fire guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, majority aft, 1 raised mount aft - superfiring
24 - 1.57" / 40.0 mm guns (3x8 guns), 1.95lbs / 0.88kg shells, 1940 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, all amidships, 1 raised mount - superfiring
12 - 0.79" / 20.0 mm guns (6x2 guns), 0.24lbs / 0.11kg shells, 1940 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread
12 - 0.79" / 20.0 mm guns in single mounts, 0.24lbs / 0.11kg shells, 1940 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mount
on side, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 552 lbs / 250 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 300
10 - 21.0" / 533.4 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 1.00" / 25 mm - 0.25" / 6 mm

Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 2 shafts, 59,114 shp / 44,099 Kw = 35.00 kts
Range 7,000nm at 15.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 685 tons

Complement:
204 - 266

Cost:
£2.137 million / $8.546 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 81 tons, 2.7 %
Armour: 23 tons, 0.7 %
- Belts: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 23 tons, 0.7 %
- Armour Deck: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Conning Tower: 0 tons, 0.0 %
Machinery: 1,430 tons, 47.0 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 876 tons, 28.8 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 540 tons, 17.8 %
Miscellaneous weights: 90 tons, 3.0 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
812 lbs / 368 Kg = 9.8 x 5.5 " / 140 mm shells or 0.3 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.23
Metacentric height 1.6 ft / 0.5 m
Roll period: 12.0 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 51 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.78
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.02

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise forward of midbreak
and transom stern
Block coefficient: 0.474
Length to Beam Ratio: 10.83 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 22.47 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 69 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 15.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
- Mid (60 %): 20.00 ft / 6.10 m (14.00 ft / 4.27 m aft of break)
- Quarterdeck (10 %): 14.00 ft / 4.27 m
- Stern: 14.00 ft / 4.27 m
- Average freeboard: 17.60 ft / 5.36 m
Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 177.1 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 78.7 %
Waterplane Area: 9,496 Square feet or 882 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 77 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 42 lbs/sq ft or 204 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.50
- Longitudinal: 2.48
- Overall: 0.59
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
Room for accommodation and workspaces is cramped

Improved light-weight Automated Dual-Purpose twin 5.5" guns simmed as 1940 Automatics.

30 tons - additional weight of DP mounts (10 tons per)
30 tons - ASW and Radar

No comments from the Gentry on what to do with the Hawkins, before I reveal my own vision (which cannot be un-seen)?

Quoted

Originally posted by ShinRa_Inc
No comments from the Gentry on what to do with the Hawkins, before I reveal my own vision (which cannot be un-seen)?

Rebuild with 8x140mm guns in duple turrets fore and aft. Lots more superstructure and 4 octuple pom-poms amidships on the beam.

I already have 4 Labradors, which are smaller but have half-again as much armament (Argument that those ships are overloaded is preemptively acknowledged). I also continue to adhere to the arguments given a couple years ago that they (Hawkins and Chesters) would not accept new barbettes, which my current 140mm weapons are mounted on. Reverting to manual-loaded twins is possible, but by now experience with operationg the four Argylls (with 5 such turrets) would reccomend against any future manual loaders as a main battery (Single DP mounts have been developed for use on Auxilliaries, and to replace the SP guns on Furious).

I will also have 24 5.5" armed Fleet Destroyers (Tribals, I, II, & III) by the end of the year, which seems sufficient dispersal of the weapon for fleet support roles.

Quoted

Originally posted by ShinRa_Inc
I already have 4 Labradors, which are smaller but have half-again as much armament (Argument that those ships are overloaded is preemptively acknowledged). I also continue to adhere to the arguments given a couple years ago that they (Hawkins and Chesters) would not accept new barbettes, which my current 140mm weapons are mounted on. Reverting to manual-loaded twins is possible, but by now experience with operationg the four Argylls (with 5 such turrets) would reccomend against any future manual loaders as a main battery (Single DP mounts have been developed for use on Auxilliaries, and to replace the SP guns on Furious).

I will also have 24 5.5" armed Fleet Destroyers (Tribals, I, II, & III) by the end of the year, which seems sufficient dispersal of the weapon for fleet support roles.

Fast amphibious transport?

An austere APD (Or APCR in this case, I suppose) style conversion doesn't seem cost efficient. Destroyer-Transports came about due to a combination of war-necessity, and availability of numerous hulls (first obsolete flush-deckers, later purpose-modified DEs). There's only five of these ships, and such a limited focus doesn't seem to warrant the costs involved, especially when it would be more efficient to convert a merchant hull or purpose-build in peacetime.

You're close to the track I've been considering, however.

The Hawkins cannot be rebuilt for turrets, I'm sure we've batted that idea about many times on this board and other sites. It's a shame because with the right guns they could be decent powerful ships. 7.5in singles would be good but an auto/ semi-auto mount would be next to impossible to fit without serious recon work.

Maybe AA cruisers would be best, they are large, have ample room for bulky electronics (radar) and should be stable platforms.

Turn their relatively large hulls into AVs ? It should be possible to place a hangar on their deck and with two catapults they might fit that role. The questions is: Does Canada need AVs?

Airship Tender? *runs away*

Quoted

Originally posted by HoOmAn
Turn their relatively large hulls into AVs ? It should be possible to place a hangar on their deck and with two catapults they might fit that role. The questions is: Does Canada need AVs?

I don't really percieve a need for seaplane tenders for the RCN, really, though it could be folded into the desgin I've been considering.


A run down on some of the various designs I've toyed with over the years;

All designs are bulged, come in around 10k tons light, and around 32 knots/8k nm, without changes to belt or deck armour.

The CA Design would mount 4 twin 7.5" weapons in Omaha-style gunhouses (No barbette, simmed as mount & hoist), with 6x2 4" DP secondaries

CLAA would mount 20 5.5" DP, in manual-loaded gunhouses (again, no barbette or automation)

CRH is a more conservative iteration of the more prefferred design (below), which would construct a hangar and barracks aft, while retaining the forward pair of 7.5" guns.

CVP is the latest and more favored proposal at the moment, which would see the ships razéed to the main deck, with a large space forward and midships, suitable for use as a hangar or barracks space, and heavy davits aft for Landing craft. Intended as a flexible, multipurpose ship, with capacity for a 12 plane fighter or fighter/bomber flight group, or an amphibious role with reduced flight group (fighter/bombers, or helicopters as they become available). The forward 7.5" gun is retained since extending the hangar that far forward is not considered feasible, and the retained weapon would be useful for either shore bombardment or anti-raider blasting.

Effingham class, Canadian [Ex-British] Assault Carrier laid down 1916 (Engine 1940)

Displacement:
10,000 t light; 10,253 t standard; 11,266 t normal; 12,077 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
569.23 ft / 565.00 ft x 58.00 ft (Bulges 65.00 ft) x 20.50 ft (normal load)
173.50 m / 172.21 m x 17.68 m (Bulges 19.81 m) x 6.25 m

Armament:
1 - 7.50" / 191 mm guns in single mounts, 210.94lbs / 95.68kg shells, 1918 Model
Breech loading gun in deck mounts with hoists
on centreline ends, evenly spread
8 - 2.24" / 57.0 mm guns (4x2 guns), 5.65lbs / 2.56kg shells, 1940 Model
Automatic rapid fire guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
32 - 1.57" / 40.0 mm guns (4x8 guns), 1.95lbs / 0.88kg shells, 1940 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
24 - 0.79" / 20.0 mm guns (12x2 guns), 0.24lbs / 0.11kg shells, 1940 Model
Machine guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 324 lbs / 147 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 125

Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 3.00" / 76 mm 540.00 ft / 164.59 m 12.00 ft / 3.66 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 147 % of normal length

- Torpedo Bulkhead and Bulges:
1.50" / 38 mm 550.00 ft / 167.64 m 20.00 ft / 6.10 m

- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 4.00" / 102 mm 1.00" / 25 mm 1.00" / 25 mm

- Armour deck: 2.00" / 51 mm

Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 4 shafts, 95,918 shp / 71,555 Kw = 32.00 kts
Range 8,000nm at 15.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 1,824 tons

Complement:
546 - 710

Cost:
£1.218 million / $4.870 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 42 tons, 0.4 %
Armour: 2,212 tons, 19.6 %
- Belts: 761 tons, 6.8 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 611 tons, 5.4 %
- Armament: 15 tons, 0.1 %
- Armour Deck: 826 tons, 7.3 %
- Conning Tower: 0 tons, 0.0 %
Machinery: 2,565 tons, 22.8 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 3,732 tons, 33.1 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,266 tons, 11.2 %
Miscellaneous weights: 1,450 tons, 12.9 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
16,378 lbs / 7,429 Kg = 77.6 x 7.5 " / 191 mm shells or 2.5 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.28
Metacentric height 3.4 ft / 1.0 m
Roll period: 14.7 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 54 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.06
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.28

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has low quarterdeck
Block coefficient: 0.524
Length to Beam Ratio: 8.69 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 23.77 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 60 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 42
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 10.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 24.00 ft / 7.32 m
- Forecastle (40 %): 24.00 ft / 7.32 m
- Mid (50 %): 24.00 ft / 7.32 m
- Quarterdeck (25 %): 16.00 ft / 4.88 m (24.00 ft / 7.32 m before break)
- Stern: 16.00 ft / 4.88 m
- Average freeboard: 22.00 ft / 6.71 m
Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 139.3 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 186.8 %
Waterplane Area: 22,316 Square feet or 2,073 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 123 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 93 lbs/sq ft or 456 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.93
- Longitudinal: 1.80
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

800 tons devoted to a 12 plane airgroup, plus spares and other equipment.(convertable to troop accomodations)
125 tons devoted to fixed troop accomodations
125 tons for C3, Radars, Superior this&that, etc.
400 tons reserved for Landing craft on davits aft.

Removal of the last 7.5" gun, and an enclosed, Hermes-like bow, with Hangar extended further aft as in the CRH.

I think the latter is the way to go. Have you tried japanese style funnels? The current layout might cause some severe turbulences over her flightdeck.

Quoted

Have you tried japanese style funnels?

Might actually look quite cool. *approves of suggestion*

Seems like it's missing something, to me. And I don't think there's any precedent for a western navy using that kind of rig.

shortened western stacks

It might look weird, but it looks a LOT safer than those huge stacks on a narrow flight deck! Your pilots may thank you. They look more like US CVE's now

I think it looks really cool with the Japanese style funnel. You could always try a Langley style setup though.

Quoted

Seems like it's missing something

Most likely because it does not really fit with the image of how it should look that is subconsciously lumbering in your mind. An image that does not include that large empty space behind the island.

Perhaps the addition of a second one and at its heighest point slightly raised above the flight deck might help (or not).