WesWorld

What do you think this is? How to rate her?

Hint: What you can´t see - the drawing shows her in her 1935er suit.

Good night!

HoOmAn

Definatly a destroyer leader with a good AA suite and quite a formidable torpedo outfit. I'd say shes around 2200 tons and speed is around 33 knots. She looks to be around 120 meters long and 22 meters wide.

While you´re right guessing she´s a leader you seem to underestimate her somewhat. And isn´t 22m a little bit too much beam for her length if the ship is meant to be fast? :o)

Are you saying shes closer to 3000 tons? I might have over estimated her beam though, that meters graph at the bottom is tough to turn sideways mentally! I'd say its more like 15 meters, I think those wing AA gun tubs threw me off initially. I'd also add another 10 meters to my initial guess at her length. Am I close in regards to her speed? I tend to think shes closer to 35 knots but something tells me your going for a HMS Manxman clone capable of close to 40 knots without the mines.

Hey, you´re getting closer. :o)

Adding another 10m to her length and decreasing her beam sounds like a good idea. Her length to beam ratio is exactly 10:1 so 130mx15m is not 100% correct but quite close to her 135mx13,5mx3,9m. And she´s closer to 3000ts than you originally guessed...

As for her speed, 40kn surely is way too much. Even when building her to DD-standards (what I did) it is impossible with ss to get her that fast. Using historical DDs and DLs as a basis I gave her a powerplant capable of 55.000 shp so she ended up slightly over 34kn - still fast given the restrictions using ss.

Before posting her full stats I have this last question: How many small caliber AA guns can you see (using your experience with my other drawings)?

This question is somewhat interesting to me because I tried to alter some things when drawing those small guns but it looked #)=$%?"§'# so I decided to use my old mounts once again....

duple 40mm mount aft.
2 quad 20mm mounts?
2 more duple 40mm mounts inbetween the torpedo banks
2 quad 40mm mounts?
2 duple 20mm mounts by the bridge.(or MG)

Or do you use 37mm guns?
Italy is negotiating with Britain to produce her 2pdr AA gun.

I saw you used your infamous hexa mount again for your 20mm.

Thus:
3x6 20mm + 2x2 20mm, 2x2 40mm + 2x4 40mm
and of course the 3x2 5.25 inch.

I actually used 0.45 for block coefficent so I got to about 3,100 tons normal displacement (and of course I was slightly off with the dimensions)

ND: (134.2x13.65x3.85x0.45x1000)/1016.1= 3123 tons.

Did you try drawing them at a much larger scale and try to size down ? It worked for the big drawing of the BBG I drew. I think I sized that one down to about 30% of the original size.

I assume that with:

Quoted

Hint: What you can´t see - the drawing shows her in her 1935er suit.

... you meant that she is a rebuilded ship (thus an older ship) ?

Walter

Well done, Red Admiral came quite close and Walter finally got it right. :o)

"infamous hexa mount" ?!?!?! ;o)

Walter, I´ve not tried to draw her in a larger scale and size her down. The reason is that I made quite a number of drawings yet and they are all of perfectly the same scale. That´s why I keep it that way. Drawing them in a larger scale and trying to size the pic down afterwards would result in a slightly different scale making a comparison impossible.

Btw, she was not rebuild in 1935. The linedrawing shows her like she will look in 1935 but laid down she was in 1933. The comment was meant to give an idea when she was build.

So here are her stats:

Flotillenführer 33, South African Leader laid down 1933

Displacement:
2.397 t light; 2.493 t standard; 2.869 t normal; 3.158 t full load
Loading submergence 303 tons/feet

Dimensions:
442,91 ft x 44,29 ft x 12,80 ft (normal load)
135,00 m x 13,50 m x 3,90 m

Armament:
6 - 5,24" / 133 mm guns (3 Main turrets x 2 guns, 1 superfiring turret)
12 - 1,57" / 40 mm AA guns
22 - 0,79" / 20 mm guns
Weight of broadside 460 lbs / 208 kg
8 - 21,0" / 533 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
Main turrets 1,57" / 40 mm, AA gun shields 0,98" / 25 mm

Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 2 shafts, 55.000 shp / 41.030 Kw = 34,18 kts
Range 4.000nm at 18,00 kts

Complement:
195 - 254

Cost:
£1,571 million / $6,286 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 57 tons, 2,0%
Armour: 81 tons, 2,8%
Belts: 0 tons, 0,0%, Armament: 81 tons, 2,8%, Armour Deck: 0 tons, 0,0%
Conning Tower: 0 tons, 0,0%, Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0,0%
Machinery: 1.430 tons, 49,9%
Hull, fittings & equipment: 829 tons, 28,9%
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 471 tons, 16,4%
Miscellaneous weights: 0 tons, 0,0%

Metacentric height 2,3

Remarks:
Caution: Light-weight hull structure.
Hull space for machinery, storage & compartmentation is cramped.
Room for accommodation & workspaces is excellent.
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform.

Estimated overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Relative margin of stability: 1,29
Shellfire needed to sink: 767 lbs / 348 Kg = 10,7 x 5,2 " / 133 mm shells
(Approx weight of penetrating shell hits needed to sink ship excluding critical hits)
Torpedoes needed to sink: 0,4
(Approx number of typical torpedo hits needed to sink ship)
Relative steadiness as gun platform: 70 %
(Average = 50 %)
Relative rocking effect from firing to beam: 0,35
Relative quality as seaboat: 1,00

Hull form characteristics:
Block coefficient: 0,400
Sharpness coefficient: 0,30
Hull speed coefficient 'M': 9,53
'Natural speed' for length: 21,05 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 62 %
Trim: 70
(Maximise stabilty/flotation = 0, Maximise steadiness/seakeeping = 100)

Estimated hull characteristics & strength:
Underwater volume absorbed by magazines and engineering spaces: 176,3%
Relative accommodation and working space: 122,4%
(Average = 100%)
Displacement factor: 77%
(Displacement relative to loading factors)
Relative cross-sectional hull strength: 0,51
(Structure weight / hull surface area: 44 lbs / square foot or 213 Kg / square metre)
Relative longitudinal hull strength: 0,89
(for 16,40 ft / 5,00 m average freeboard, freeboard adjustment 4,61 ft)
Relative composite hull strength: 0,54

Quoted

"infamous hexa mount" ?!?!?! ;o)

Perhaps not so famous. Red Admiral would have had it right if he were familiar with that six gun mount of yours.

As for resizing, I was only talking about your gun mounts. Resizing that big BBG to about 30% worked pretty well, so i thought it could also work with just a gun mount as well...

Walter

For ease most of my weapons are a set size and I design the hulls around them. I actually have"template" photes saved in my files that i pull up when designing a new ship. Some of my designs still have some of these extra guns still in the pic when I saved it as they are still technically incomplete. Technically though my ships aren't to scale but they are just for representation anyway and the guns are based on scale model parts just not drawn to any particular scale. It seems to work so I haven't changed my technique.

Having standard equipement as single objects makes much sense. Using Coral Photo-Paint I have one "pic" containing nothing else than turrets, AA guns, screws, masts etc....

So when designing a new ship I have to draw the hull, superstructure, funnels and - in most cases - the masts but guns, boats, compass platforms etc. can be easily added, saving much time.

Well, that is different compared to what I do...

... I just 'rip' the parts I need from any of the previous designs.

Walter

With my destroyer designs I do a little of both. I have a starter design and seeing as destroyers are built in huge numbers, each class I make slight improvements with the odd jump to a new turret or deck layout and then start over. Eventually you will have a few designs that work well and get produced in large numbers. I'd like to see one of Hoomans old destroyer pics to see if they look similar to mine.

Well, actually my personal library contains many books about the german navy and designs and thus most (good) linedrawings I have at hand are showing german units. So it is quite normal that my drawings are somewhat influenced by the way german units look like but I also use british and french input.

My WW1-type torpedoboats (I don´t call them destroyers) share many similarities with german designs - both in technical details like armament and their general layout/look.

Here´s a pic showing some of the objects I use for my drawings. Having those objects makes it quite easy to get the right scale for other equipement. The three other pics show how I "developed" the BC I posted some days ago. You can easily see how I played around with different deck layouts, how I took care fire arcs are good enough etc. The fact that the drawing program is object-based makes things quite easy because it is no problem to train the guns, catapults and other stuff.










Hope this helps.... :o)

My templates are more geared to a certain type of warship such as a DD template or a cruiser template. I thought I was weird for having these things but aparently i'm not! Looking at Hoomans parts picture reminds me of a parts sprue from a ship model kit! All those neat little parts.

Since we've moved to the topic of drawing, I use CorelDraw now that it works on my machine again. Being vector-based, I can scale the drawings as I see fit without it getting "pixelly".

As it's set up, the drawing has a number of pages, each of which holds one specific ship. Around the page, always visible, are the generic pieces - guns, anchors, boats - that are to scale and are just dragged onto the page as I need them. I haven't got anything for specific ship classes, since I've got so few; instead, all of the guns are in one area, all of the boats in another.

I like the continuity this approach gives you - it makes your ships really look like the same people have designed them all...

Well, i also have CoralDraw and it should be much better for _drawing_ than CoralPhoto-Paint but for whatever reason I can´t handle CoralDraw. :o( I´ve tried it more than once but it doesn´t work the way I like it... And after ~20 drawings I´m quite used to Photo-Paint and there is little I can´t do with it.