WesWorld

The Armada de Mexico is looking from a new torpedo bomber.

Specs:
Multi-engine
Modern Design
Capable of carrying at least 1 torpedo, 2 is better
Available by late 1935. Willing to wait for better designs.

Italy need not apply (even if the SM 79 fits the above perfectly)

What weight of torpedo is the Armada de Mexico planning to use on these aircraft?

I don't know. What was the weight of a standard 18" aerial torpedo of the time?

Say a 2,000 lb minimum bombload. Torpedoes where arounf 1,500 lbs right? 2K gives me an option of 4x 500lb bombs instead of torpedoes.

Quoted

Italy need not apply

Hmmm... I wonder why...

Standard weights of aerial torpedoes seem to range from 1500 to slightly over 2000 pounds in this period. So the Armada de Mexico is looking for a minimum bomb load of 2,000 pounds, up to 4,000 pounds. Good enough.


Heinkel will submit a torpedo-bomber version of the He-111, which is capable of carrying 2 torpedoes.

Dornier will submit a version of the Do-17 capable of carrying 1 torpedo, powered by either the Bramo 323 (if the AdM wants more speed) or the BMW 132 (if the AdM wants more range).

Spartan/FMA could offer the Spartan Sp-21A Vanquish II, with a 4,000lb bomb load. I'd assume that there is enough room for two 18" torpedo's, or minimum 1 torp and an external bomb load.

Italy feels that any country that supplies such obvious offensive weapons to Mexico is completely irresponsable and measures shall be taken against them.

Now I definately need them. Anyway to get a range of 12,000 miles? That way I can actually strike Italy from Mexico.

Strange that a country that has supplied rebel forces and assasinated foreign officials feels that way. Considering that Mexico IC has yet to say anything about any country.

Its also worth noting Italy's trusty ally, Iberia, has sold similar weapons to another country in the region, Peru. Whats good for the Goose is good for the Gander.

Quoted

Originally posted by thesmilingassassin
Its also worth noting Italy's trusty ally, Iberia, has sold similar weapons to another country in the region, Peru. Whats good for the Goose is good for the Gander.

I disagree. While the Iberian help has being more in manpower (the Iberian Mountain Brigade and the Guayaquil Squadron) the real culprits in regard to weapons are the British, the Germans, the South Africans, the Nordmarks and the Italians.

@#$ squares.

So here are are two Dutch planes. The T-VIIIW has entered service, and is a seaplane normally carrying a single standard 820kg 18" aerial torpedo. The internal bay is plumbed to allow an auxiliary tank in place of the torpedo.

The T.VII was developed from the T.V medium bomber/maritime strike to meet Nordmark's specs, and the Dutch are looking to adopt it in 1935. While the bombload is sufficient for two torpedoes, I had really only envisioned one torpedo.

These will be replacing the T.IVa and T.V respectively in Dutch service.

Aircraft Type or Name:

T.VIII W

General Type:
Airplane = 1
Airship = 2
Orbiter = 3
1

Year of First Flight: 1934

Description

Flying Boat / Seaplane
Monoplane
Conventional Fuselage

Fokker T.VIII Seaplane. Equipped with 2 twin 7.92mm MGs in power turrets nose / dorsal, radio and space for 1x 820kg 18" aerial torpedoes internally.



Characteristics:

Weight (maximum) 14,500 lbs
Weight (empty) 9,438 lbs

Length 42.6 ft
Wingspan 67 ft
Wing Area 630 sq ft
Sweep 2 degrees

Engines 2
Avia Pegasus
Piston

965 hp
at 13,000 ft


Crew 4


Typical cost $0.043 million in 1934
Total number procured 160


Performance:

Top Speed 236 kts = 271 mph
at 13,000 ft
Mach N/A

Operational Ceiling 31,000 ft

Range 918 nm = 1,057 miles
with 1,902 lbs payload
2,062 lbs released at halfway point

Climb 1,475 fpm

Cruise 155 kts = 178 mph
at 13,000 ft

Corner Speed 154 KIAS =
188 kts at 13,000 ft
Mach N/A
Turning Rate 21.2 deg/sec
Radius 1,719 ft



Internal Data:

Intake / Fan Diameter 8 ft

Bypass Ratio 82.1

Engine Weight 1180 lbs
Overall Efficiency 23 percent

Structural Factor 1.00

Number of Wings 1
Number of Fuselages 1

Limiting Airspeed 270 kts
Wing Ultimate g Load 6.00 g
Wing Taper 0.2
Wing Thickness at Root 2.4 ft

Tail / Canard Factor 0.4

Number of Nacelles 2
Length 11 ft
Diameter 4.8 ft
Fullness 0.3

Fuselage Diameter 4.3 ft
Fuselage Fullness 0.5

Pressurized Volume 0 percent
Cargo Decks 0

Cleanness 63.2 percent
Unstreamlined section 5.1 sq ft

User equipment 1,120 lbs



Aircraft Type or Name:

T.VII

General Type:
Airplane = 1
Airship = 2
Orbiter = 3
1

Year of First Flight: 1934

Description

Carrier or Rough Field
Monoplane
Conventional Fuselage

Fokker T.VII landbomber. . Equipped with 2 twin 7.92mm MGs in power turrets dorsal/ventral, and singles in nose/tail.



Characteristics:

Weight (maximum) 19,500 lbs
Weight (empty) 10,578 lbs

Length 44 ft
Wingspan 69 ft
Wing Area 520 sq ft
Sweep 2 degrees

Engines 2
Avia Pegasus XVIII
Piston

1,065 hp
at 13,000 ft


Crew 6


Typical cost $0.051 million in 1934
Total number procured 160


Performance:

Top Speed 250 kts = 288 mph
at 13,000 ft
Mach N/A

Operational Ceiling 27,000 ft

Range 1,080 nm = 1,244 miles
with 4,482 lbs payload
4,864 lbs released at halfway point

Climb 1,161 fpm

Cruise 170 kts = 196 mph
at 13,000 ft

Corner Speed 191 KIAS =
232 kts at 13,000 ft
Mach N/A
Turning Rate 17.1 deg/sec
Radius 2,636 ft



Internal Data:

Intake / Fan Diameter 9 ft

Bypass Ratio 89.9

Engine Weight 1180 lbs
Overall Efficiency 23 percent

Structural Factor 1.00

Number of Wings 1
Number of Fuselages 1

Limiting Airspeed 290 kts
Wing Ultimate g Load 6.00 g
Wing Taper 0.3
Wing Thickness at Root 2.6 ft

Tail / Canard Factor 0.4

Number of Nacelles 2
Length 11 ft
Diameter 4.8 ft
Fullness 0.3

Fuselage Diameter 4.8 ft
Fuselage Fullness 0.45

Pressurized Volume 0 percent
Cargo Decks 0

Cleanness 79 percent
Unstreamlined section 5.3 sq ft

User equipment 1,505 lbs

Quoted

Originally posted by perdedor99

Quoted

Originally posted by thesmilingassassin
Its also worth noting Italy's trusty ally, Iberia, has sold similar weapons to another country in the region, Peru. Whats good for the Goose is good for the Gander.

I disagree. While the Iberian help has being more in manpower (the Iberian Mountain Brigade and the Guayaquil Squadron) the real culprits in regard to weapons are the British, the Germans, the South Africans, the Nordmarks and the Italians.

I stand corrected, but it still proves my point. Good thing Mexico and Italy are not neighbours!

Quoted

Anyway to get a range of 12,000 miles?

I played around loads with planebuilder to try and get a plane that could fly that far - trying to do the MacRobertson air race from Britain to Oz in one hop. I tried with prop planes at first but couldn't get to that range without going to an extremely high wing loading. The only "reasonable" thing that worked was a rather large jet cruising at M1.7 @ 70000ft

The Savoia-Marchetti SM.79 is already becoming a bit dated. When introduced it was as fast, or faster than most fighters. Now there is a speed gap of about 100mph with the newer generation of monoplanes. The wood and fabric construction is also looking dated compared to the new all-metal construction. The Italian SM.79s will start to be replaced in 1st line service around 1937/38 by something more potent.

FMA can offer the I.Ae 4S as offered to Brazil as a twin-engined fast torpedo bomber. Also carrier capable.

Aircraft Type or Name:

FMA I.Ae 4S

General Type:
Airplane = 1
Airship = 2
Orbiter = 3
1

Year of First Flight: 1934

Description

Carrier or Rough Field
Monoplane
Conventional Fuselage

A carrier-based bomber based on the Courier mailplane. Armament three 7.62mm fixed forward forward MG, 1,500lbs bombload or one 1500lb torpedo.



Characteristics:

Weight (maximum) 8,500 lbs
Weight (empty) 5,788 lbs

Length 30.75 ft
Wingspan 40 ft
Wing Area 406 sq ft
Sweep 2 degrees

Engines 2
FMA RR-14-2
Piston

700 hp



Crew 2


Typical cost $0.060 million in 1933
Total number procured 12


Performance:

Top Speed 218 kts = 251 mph
at 10,000 ft
Mach N/A

Operational Ceiling 23,000 ft

Range 424 nm = 488 miles
with 1,500 lbs payload
1,567 lbs released at halfway point

Climb 1,840 fpm

Cruise 174 kts = 200 mph
at 15,000 ft

Corner Speed 164 KIAS =
190 kts at 10,000 ft
Mach N/A
Turning Rate 20.9 deg/sec
Radius 1,756 ft



Internal Data:

Intake / Fan Diameter 8 ft

Bypass Ratio 100.2

Engine Weight 814 lbs
Overall Efficiency 22.5 percent

Structural Factor 1.00

Number of Wings 1
Number of Fuselages 1

Limiting Airspeed 200 kts
Wing Ultimate g Load 6.00 g
Wing Taper 0.1
Wing Thickness at Root 1 ft

Tail / Canard Factor 0.4

Number of Nacelles 2
Length 7.5 ft
Diameter 3 ft
Fullness 0.3

Fuselage Diameter 5 ft
Fuselage Fullness 0.3

Pressurized Volume 0 percent
Cargo Decks 1

Cleanness 59 percent
Unstreamlined section 2.3 sq ft

User equipment 700 lbs

IMPA and Spartan can offer the Vanquish II.

Aircraft Type or Name:

Spartan Sp-21A Vanquish II

General Type:
Airplane = 1
Airship = 2
Orbiter = 3
1

Year of First Flight: 1934

Description

Conventional Aircraft
Monoplane
Conventional Fuselage

A monoplane medium fast bomber armed with two dorsal 7.7mm and two wing root 7.7mm and one nose 7.7mm MG and a bombload of 4,000lbs



Characteristics:

Weight (maximum) 18,800 lbs
Weight (empty) 10,825 lbs

Length 48 ft
Wingspan 67 ft
Wing Area 600 sq ft
Sweep 3 degrees

Engines 2
Spartan 1000
Piston

1,000 hp
at 10,000 ft


Crew 4


Typical cost $0.046 million in 1934
Total number procured 200


Performance:

Top Speed 228 kts = 262 mph
at 15,000 ft
Mach N/A

Operational Ceiling 26,500 ft

Range 1,000 nm = 1,152 miles
with 4,165 lbs payload
4,517 lbs released at halfway point

Climb 1,078 fpm

Cruise 152 kts = 175 mph
at 15,000 ft

Corner Speed 225 KIAS =
325 kts at 23,000 ft
Mach N/A
Turning Rate 19.7 deg/sec
Radius 3,190 ft



Internal Data:

Intake / Fan Diameter 8.5 ft

Bypass Ratio 85.65

Engine Weight 1235 lbs
Overall Efficiency 22.5 percent

Structural Factor 0.98

Number of Wings 1
Number of Fuselages 1

Limiting Airspeed 250 kts
Wing Ultimate g Load 9.50 g
Wing Taper 0.3
Wing Thickness at Root 2.1 ft

Tail / Canard Factor 0.5

Number of Nacelles 2
Length 6 ft
Diameter 2.15 ft
Fullness 0.3

Fuselage Diameter 5.1 ft
Fuselage Fullness 0.4

Pressurized Volume 0 percent
Cargo Decks 1

Cleanness 60 percent
Unstreamlined section 1.8 sq ft

User equipment 1,200 lbs

Oh, what's the date on this request, and when does the period for submittals end? There might be a late submission from Germany.....

Say October 1st to January 1st. Note that I'm willing to consider planes not yet flying and also some of the smaller fighter based ones.

@ Wes/Hood, Any chance of the Vanquish II getting a new fuselage (ala Buefort->fighter?)

My own entries are the TNCA B-7 Coyote and O-1, and some vague plans from Australia for a high performace plane (CAC-11).

OK. In that case, BFW will submit a torpedo-carrying variant of their Bf-110

If possible, Italy would enter the already extant Magni-Jona J.10bis which meets the requirements admirably and has a considerable excess of speed.


Type: Jona J.10bis
Function: Medium Bomber/Torpedo Strike
Year: 1934 Crew: 2 Engines: 2 * 1400hp Isotta-Fraschini W1518
Wing Span: 16.10m Length: 12.16m Height: 3.70m Wing Area: 46.20m2
Empty Weight: 5230kg Max.Weight: 8180kg
Speed: 590km/h @ 4000m Ceiling: 10000m
Range: 2200km with 1000kg payload
Armament: 4*mg 7.7mm in wings

The US doesn't really have anything in this category at present, though we of course have the new TBD. It would be possible to convert the B-10 and B-18 medium bombers to carry a torpedo.

IMPA/Spartan submit a modified Sp-21 design to meet Mexican specified changes.



Aircraft Type or Name:

Spartan Sp-21M Vanquish IIM

General Type:
Airplane = 1
Airship = 2
Orbiter = 3
1

Year of First Flight: 1934

Description

Conventional Aircraft
Monoplane
Conventional Fuselage

A monoplane medium fast bomber armed with two dorsal 7.7mm, 4x 13mm HMG in the nose and one 18-12in torpedo or 3000lbs of bombs.



Characteristics:

Weight (maximum) 18,800 lbs
Weight (empty) 11,670 lbs

Length 42 ft
Wingspan 67 ft
Wing Area 600 sq ft
Sweep 3 degrees

Engines 2
Spartan 1000
Piston

1,000 hp
at 10,000 ft


Crew 3


Typical cost $0.067 million in 1934
Total number procured 200


Performance:

Top Speed 232 kts = 267 mph
at 15,000 ft
Mach N/A

Operational Ceiling 26,500 ft

Range 1,046 nm = 1,204 miles
with 3,499 lbs payload
3,802 lbs released at halfway point

Climb 1,094 fpm

Cruise 152 kts = 175 mph
at 15,000 ft

Corner Speed 242 KIAS =
260 kts at 5,000 ft
Mach N/A
Turning Rate 28.7 deg/sec
Radius 1,752 ft



Internal Data:

Intake / Fan Diameter 8.5 ft

Bypass Ratio 85.65

Engine Weight 1235 lbs
Overall Efficiency 22.5 percent

Structural Factor 0.98

Number of Wings 1
Number of Fuselages 1

Limiting Airspeed 350 kts
Wing Ultimate g Load 11.00 g
Wing Taper 0.3
Wing Thickness at Root 2.1 ft

Tail / Canard Factor 0.5

Number of Nacelles 2
Length 6 ft
Diameter 2.15 ft
Fullness 0.3

Fuselage Diameter 4.8 ft
Fuselage Fullness 0.4

Pressurized Volume 0 percent
Cargo Decks 0

Cleanness 60 percent
Unstreamlined section 1.2 sq ft

User equipment 1,200 lbs