WesWorld

If I manage to buy an R class if and when they go up for sale, I thought I'd do up a sim for a Vanguard type ship using the old turrents firing the Chilean 15in shell.

It's a bit expensive, but she should be able to sink whatever she can't catch, and run from all the super-BB's out there. Also, she would be a class of one.

Thoughts?

Brasil, Brazil Fast Battleship laid down 1940

Displacement:
41,215 t light; 43,171 t standard; 47,516 t normal; 50,993 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
898.99 ft / 885.00 ft x 95.00 ft (Bulges 106.00 ft) x 32.00 ft (normal load)
274.01 m / 269.75 m x 28.96 m (Bulges 32.31 m) x 9.75 m

Armament:
8 - 15.00" / 381 mm guns (4x2 guns), 1,687.50lbs / 765.44kg shells, 1913 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
24 - 4.72" / 120 mm guns (12x2 guns), 52.72lbs / 23.92kg shells, 1940 Model
Dual purpose guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, all amidships, 4 raised mounts - superfiring
16 - 1.46" / 37.0 mm guns (8x2 guns), 1.55lbs / 0.70kg shells, 1940 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, all amidships, 6 raised mounts - superfiring
16 - 0.54" / 13.7 mm guns (7 mounts), 0.08lbs / 0.04kg shells, 1940 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, all amidships, all raised mounts - superfiring
Weight of broadside 14,791 lbs / 6,709 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 120

Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 13.0" / 330 mm 575.25 ft / 175.34 m 11.70 ft / 3.57 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 100 % of normal length

- Torpedo Bulkhead and Bulges:
3.00" / 76 mm 575.25 ft / 175.34 m 29.39 ft / 8.96 m

- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 15.0" / 381 mm 6.00" / 152 mm 15.0" / 381 mm
2nd: 3.00" / 76 mm 1.00" / 25 mm 3.00" / 76 mm
3rd: 2.00" / 51 mm 1.00" / 25 mm -
4th: 2.00" / 51 mm 1.00" / 25 mm -

- Armour deck: 5.00" / 127 mm, Conning tower: 15.00" / 381 mm

Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 4 shafts, 195,808 shp / 146,073 Kw = 33.00 kts
Range 15,000nm at 15.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 7,822 tons

Complement:
1,608 - 2,091

Cost:
£22.372 million / $89.486 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 1,849 tons, 3.9 %
Armour: 15,596 tons, 32.8 %
- Belts: 3,674 tons, 7.7 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 1,877 tons, 3.9 %
- Armament: 3,950 tons, 8.3 %
- Armour Deck: 5,672 tons, 11.9 %
- Conning Tower: 424 tons, 0.9 %
Machinery: 5,236 tons, 11.0 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 18,335 tons, 38.6 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 6,301 tons, 13.3 %
Miscellaneous weights: 200 tons, 0.4 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
73,255 lbs / 33,228 Kg = 43.4 x 15.0 " / 381 mm shells or 11.9 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.10
Metacentric height 5.6 ft / 1.7 m
Roll period: 18.8 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 59 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.62
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.17

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
and transom stern
Block coefficient: 0.554
Length to Beam Ratio: 8.35 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 34.23 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 52 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 25.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 30.00 ft / 9.14 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 26.00 ft / 7.92 m
- Mid (50 %): 26.00 ft / 7.92 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 26.00 ft / 7.92 m
- Stern: 26.00 ft / 7.92 m
- Average freeboard: 26.32 ft / 8.02 m
Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 84.2 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 188.9 %
Waterplane Area: 61,321 Square feet or 5,697 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 116 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 197 lbs/sq ft or 964 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.98
- Longitudinal: 1.13
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent

I like her though I think you may have to look into building her with Chilean guns if you really REALLY want a pair of these.

Actually, I like her a lot too...

Hm, maybe we have a joint Chile-Brazil project we could make out of this? Using R-class turrets saves you 782 mt per turret; so you can save 3,128 tons off the build cost.

The downside is you can only build one.

Also, not all guns are built equal. The older RN Mk I guns may not be quite capable of firing the Chilean 15" shell without rework of some kind.

Its probable that they wouldn't be able to fire a different shell. You've got to take into account the different chamber dimensions, different working pressures and so on.

It doesn't look like a bad ship but is it too expensive for Brazil?

A 43k tons behemoth with a BC of 0,544? I also don´t like her l:b ratio as I think she is too slim for a capital ship. Her beam is less than that of OTL IOWA while her length is comparable. Those mini-bulges don´t make sense except for reducing weight of deck armor. But seriously, such a big ship with an internal beam of 28,96m? She might have a 3" torpedo bulkhead but should _I_ ever script a conflict with her I´d rate her TT defense very low.

I also question, like RA did, the idea of firing Chile shells from UK guns. In general, why buying a R-class when you really wanted the turrets only? Might have been less costly to buy some surplus turrets instead.

To sum it up: Questionable from a technical point of view and most likely way to expensive for Brazil.

My personal point of view of course....

If its just the turrets you want I'm sure it could be arranged. I'm sure to remove a couple while doing some work the R's I intend on keeping (for nefarious reasons).

I don't think the design is too bad, ditch the bulges and widen her a bit. The belt is a little thin, I would aim for 15in really. Then again new triple 15in from Chile might be the better option.


Vickers could offer this design, slower but more armour and has nine 15in Mk V guns.

Vickers Brazilian Battleship, Great Britain/ Brazil Battleship laid down 1940

Displacement:
40,598 t light; 42,544 t standard; 45,178 t normal; 47,285 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
811.47 ft / 806.00 ft x 106.00 ft x 31.80 ft (normal load)
247.33 m / 245.67 m x 32.31 m x 9.69 m

Armament:
9 - 15.00" / 381 mm guns (3x3 guns), 1,938.00lbs / 879.06kg shells, 1940 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, majority forward, 1 raised mount - superfiring
20 - 4.72" / 120 mm guns (10x2 guns), 52.72lbs / 23.92kg shells, 1940 Model
Dual purpose guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, all amidships, 4 raised mounts - superfiring
16 - 1.46" / 37.0 mm guns (8x2 guns), 1.55lbs / 0.70kg shells, 1940 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side ends, evenly spread, 6 raised mounts - superfiring
16 - 0.54" / 13.7 mm guns (7 mounts), 0.08lbs / 0.04kg shells, 1940 Model
Machine guns in deck mounts
on side ends, majority forward, all raised mounts - superfiring
Weight of broadside 18,522 lbs / 8,402 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 100

Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 15.0" / 381 mm 480.00 ft / 146.30 m 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 92 % of normal length

- Torpedo Bulkhead:
1.50" / 38 mm 480.00 ft / 146.30 m 30.00 ft / 9.14 m

- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 13.0" / 330 mm 9.00" / 229 mm 13.0" / 330 mm
2nd: 3.00" / 76 mm 1.00" / 25 mm 3.00" / 76 mm
3rd: 0.50" / 13 mm - -
4th: 0.50" / 13 mm - -

- Armour deck: 5.25" / 133 mm, Conning tower: 10.00" / 254 mm

Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 4 shafts, 145,000 shp / 108,170 Kw = 30.42 kts
Range 8,000nm at 16.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 4,741 tons

Complement:
1,549 - 2,014

Cost:
£22.031 million / $88.124 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 2,033 tons, 4.5 %
Armour: 16,710 tons, 37.0 %
- Belts: 6,287 tons, 13.9 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 799 tons, 1.8 %
- Armament: 3,134 tons, 6.9 %
- Armour Deck: 6,217 tons, 13.8 %
- Conning Tower: 273 tons, 0.6 %
Machinery: 3,877 tons, 8.6 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 17,777 tons, 39.3 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 4,580 tons, 10.1 %
Miscellaneous weights: 200 tons, 0.4 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
72,842 lbs / 33,040 Kg = 43.2 x 15.0 " / 381 mm shells or 10.9 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.11
Metacentric height 6.6 ft / 2.0 m
Roll period: 17.3 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 61 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.68
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.15

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
and transom stern
Block coefficient: 0.582
Length to Beam Ratio: 7.60 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 32.82 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 52 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 53
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 10.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 31.00 ft / 9.45 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 26.00 ft / 7.92 m
- Mid (70 %): 21.00 ft / 6.40 m
- Quarterdeck (20 %): 21.00 ft / 6.40 m
- Stern: 21.00 ft / 6.40 m
- Average freeboard: 23.65 ft / 7.21 m
Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 77.8 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 181.7 %
Waterplane Area: 64,012 Square feet or 5,947 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 110 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 204 lbs/sq ft or 995 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.97
- Longitudinal: 1.30
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent

Thanks for the replies everyone.

The concept is a fleet flagship able to work with the Rio II's as a fast raiding force, using their superior speed to evade the superior numbers of the SA battleline. The requirements are for 15in guns, 33 knots to be able to work with the Rio II's or the Minas Gerais II's. Although protection against the 15in shell would be nice, Brazil does not have the capability to produce armour beyond 13in, so 13in it must be.

It must be noted that Brazil is currently perplexed as to what course of action she should take regarding future large ships. Two different fleet plans have been drawn up with completion by 1948:

2 36,000 ton BB's, 2 33,000 ton BC's, 2 18,000 ton AC's, 1 11000 ton CVL + supporting ships.

1 40,000 ton BB, 2 33,000 ton BC, 2 18,000 ton AC's, 2 11,000 ton CVL's, + supporting ships.

Brazil is able to do plan (a) or (b), but not both.

Also, here is another design for the fleet plan, with 8 15in in quads.

Brasil, Brazil Fast Battleship laid down 1940

Displacement:
40,031 t light; 41,966 t standard; 46,138 t normal; 49,475 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
769.63 ft / 750.00 ft x 108.00 ft x 32.00 ft (normal load)
234.58 m / 228.60 m x 32.92 m x 9.75 m

Armament:
8 - 15.00" / 381 mm guns (2x4 guns), 1,699.76lbs / 771.00kg shells, 1940 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline, all forward, 1 raised mount - superfiring
24 - 4.72" / 120 mm guns (12x2 guns), 52.72lbs / 23.91kg shells, 1940 Model
Dual purpose guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, all amidships, 4 raised mounts - superfiring
16 - 1.46" / 37.0 mm guns (8x2 guns), 1.55lbs / 0.70kg shells, 1940 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, all amidships, 6 raised mounts - superfiring
16 - 0.54" / 13.7 mm guns (7 mounts), 0.08lbs / 0.04kg shells, 1940 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, all amidships, all raised mounts - superfiring
Weight of broadside 14,889 lbs / 6,754 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 120

Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 13.0" / 330 mm 428.02 ft / 130.46 m 12.47 ft / 3.80 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 88 % of normal length

- Torpedo Bulkhead:
3.00" / 76 mm 487.50 ft / 148.59 m 30.40 ft / 9.27 m

- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 13.0" / 330 mm 6.00" / 152 mm 13.0" / 330 mm
2nd: 3.00" / 76 mm 1.00" / 25 mm 3.00" / 76 mm
3rd: 2.00" / 51 mm 1.00" / 25 mm -
4th: 2.00" / 51 mm 1.00" / 25 mm -

- Armour deck: 5.50" / 140 mm, Conning tower: 15.00" / 381 mm

Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 4 shafts, 211,258 shp / 157,598 Kw = 33.00 kts
Range 15,000nm at 15.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 7,510 tons

Complement:
1,573 - 2,046

Cost:
£22.470 million / $89.880 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 1,849 tons, 4.0 %
Armour: 14,231 tons, 30.8 %
- Belts: 3,100 tons, 6.7 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 1,645 tons, 3.6 %
- Armament: 2,648 tons, 5.7 %
- Armour Deck: 6,421 tons, 13.9 %
- Conning Tower: 416 tons, 0.9 %
Machinery: 5,649 tons, 12.2 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 18,103 tons, 39.2 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 6,107 tons, 13.2 %
Miscellaneous weights: 200 tons, 0.4 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
74,484 lbs / 33,785 Kg = 44.1 x 15.0 " / 381 mm shells or 11.3 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.13
Metacentric height 7.1 ft / 2.2 m
Roll period: 17.1 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 53 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.64
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.06

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
and transom stern
Block coefficient: 0.623
Length to Beam Ratio: 6.94 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 31.76 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 61 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 30.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 34.00 ft / 10.36 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 30.00 ft / 9.14 m
- Mid (50 %): 30.00 ft / 9.14 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 30.00 ft / 9.14 m
- Stern: 30.00 ft / 9.14 m
- Average freeboard: 30.32 ft / 9.24 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 87.5 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 229.3 %
Waterplane Area: 63,110 Square feet or 5,863 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 114 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 203 lbs/sq ft or 991 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.92
- Longitudinal: 1.99
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent

btw, the laying down date is ambiguous as well, it might be 42/43.

Quoted

Originally posted by TheCanadian
2 36,000 ton BB's, 2 33,000 ton BC's, 2 18,000 ton AC's, 1 11000 ton CVL + supporting ships.

1 40,000 ton BB, 2 33,000 ton BC, 2 18,000 ton AC's, 2 11,000 ton CVL's, + supporting ships.

Of the two... I'm probably leaning towards the second, at the moment. The power of the carrier might not yet be apparent, but I'd rather have two carriers than one, in any case.

If I read correctly, Brazil currently has four Almirante Barroso-class heavy CLs and four Sagitério-class regular CLs, correct? That looks to me to be a powerful mid-level cruiser force, and should be sufficient for the moment.

Quoted

Originally posted by Brockpaine

Quoted

Originally posted by TheCanadian
2 36,000 ton BB's, 2 33,000 ton BC's, 2 18,000 ton AC's, 1 11000 ton CVL + supporting ships.

1 40,000 ton BB, 2 33,000 ton BC, 2 18,000 ton AC's, 2 11,000 ton CVL's, + supporting ships.

Of the two... I'm probably leaning towards the second, at the moment. The power of the carrier might not yet be apparent, but I'd rather have two carriers than one, in any case.

If I read correctly, Brazil currently has four Almirante Barroso-class heavy CLs and four Sagitério-class regular CLs, correct? That looks to me to be a powerful mid-level cruiser force, and should be sufficient for the moment.

3 of the Almirante class are building, with the final one being not laid down and redesigned giving up some armor for speed (Almirante Saldanha).

1 of the Sagiterio Class is complete, and 3 more will are building. All cruisers except Saldanha will be complete by 1938. Had the Brazilians declared war in 1938, they would have had 7 modern cruisers to throw at the SAE, 3 with 15 6in, 6in belt, 3.45in deck, 30.5 knots, 4 with 9 6in, 4in belt, 4in deck, 30.5 knots. The only problem with them, is 4 of the cruisers have no AA guns!

I agree, Brasil has a solid cruiser force, though I'd personally go for numbers and build four CL's in the 6,000-8,000 ton range rather than two 18,000 ton AC's.

I'm not a fan of the modern armoured cruiser as its an expensive unit that has a limited role of either cruiser killer, raider (and an expensive one at that) or CV escort (currently not a doctrinal standard). Cruiser killers may give you a 1 on 1 advantage vs. smaller CA's but it doesn't help vs.a numericaly superior advasary. A smaller CA could do all these things plus trade protection and also allow for additional hulls on the cheap.

This would give you the tonnage to build 2x36,000 ton BB's, 2x33,000 ton BC's and 2x11,000 ton CVL's or instead 2x15,000 ton CV's.

All together that would give you a modern fleet of:
2xBB
2xBC
2xCV
4xCLL
8xCL

Quoted

Originally posted by thesmilingassassin
I'm not a fan of the modern armoured cruiser as its an expensive unit that has a limited role of either cruiser killer, raider (and an expensive one at that) or CV escort (currently not a doctrinal standard). Cruiser killers may give you a 1 on 1 advantage vs. smaller CA's but it doesn't help vs.a numericaly superior advasary. A smaller CA could do all these things plus trade protection and also allow for additional hulls on the cheap.

As much as it pains me to say it - being an armoured cruiser fan - I'm increasingly drawn to agree. I'm viewing Constitution as a sort of "cruiser leader" for heavy cruisers, rather than a Battlecruiser-Lite. Once she's done, I'm not going to build anything her size for quite some time, and probably devolve back towards 15cm gunned CLs and maybe some new era 20.3cm-gunned CAs.

Don't get me wrong, they are really cool ships but their size is somewhat limiting so from a fleet standpoint they are not very practical, at least IMO.

The main reason for building the AC's was mainly sentimental using old turrents on a new ship. There still is the problem of what to do with the old BB. I don't want to scrap/sell her, as she has sentimental value. I can either repair her, remove the wing turrents, add some AA, and use her as a heavy convoy escort. Even though she is old, frightfully slow, and outgunned by every battleship built past 1911, the RSAN will need to bring a modern BB to handle her, and quite frankly they might have other priorities besides sinking an old BB.

I could also repair her, and redesignate her as a harbor defence ship functioning as a museum/memorial to the SA War. She won't be considered a museum ship ingame, because every December 1st, she leaves port and just outside harbour, fires a full 10 gun broadside to the Southeast, to remind the SAE that round 1 may go to them, but there's always a round 2 . (No not planning one for some years, just thought it would make an interesting story).

Regarding cruisers:

I purchased the 4 "C class cruisers Hood had up for sale, and was planning on modernizing these and using them for trade protection. Eventually, as more modern DD's get built, the Margays will form cruiser raiding groups with the 30.5 knot cruisers (1 15 gun, 1 9 gun, and 3 Margays). Another Almirante Saldanha will likely be built for fleet screen, as well as 2-4 Saggie's.

I can actually do a 10 year plan with 2 40,000 ton BB's, 2 33,000 ton BC's, 2 12,000 CA's, 2 11,000 ton CVL's, 2 10,000 ton CLL's, 2 8,000 ton CL's, 12 1500 ton DD's, and still have 34,000 tons left over for sub's, a 4,000 ton CVE conversion, and additional support ships.

I have to wonder why have both BBs and BCs, when your requirements for BBs end up making them fast BBs anyway. If you can do 2 x 40 and 2 x 33, why not do 4 x 36 kton fast BBs/BCs instead?

That's a good point.

HDW would certainly suggest that Brazil look at the Argentine Veinticinco de Mayo class, HDW could provide Brazil with a version of the same vessel using Brazillian 12cm guns vs the Argentine 11.5cm guns.

Reusing the 30.5cm turrets does save some tonnage, making the 18 kton ACs a bit less expensive.

Quoted

Originally posted by Hrolf Hakonson


Reusing the 30.5cm turrets does save some tonnage, making the 18 kton ACs a bit less expensive.

Should save around a 1000 tons. It also makes sense to reduce the length of the battleship to 220m. That way tonnage is somewhat reduced plus I agree four 36k to 38k tons BB makes a lot of sense.

I'd try to keep the fast BB tonnage to 36k or less, that allows the CVL size to grow to 12,000 tons without eating into the tonnage reserve he has for the future.