WesWorld

With the growth of the Kreigsmarine, a potential need for specialized training vessels has been identified. These ships would introduce cadets to life at sea aboard naval vessels, train them in various specialties, and send them on when trained to their eventual postings. In wartime, they could serve as convoy escorts, but their reduced speed (to keep costs down) would generally keep them away from serving with the battle fleet.


Bremse, Germany Training cruiser laid down 1938

Displacement:
5,348 t light; 5,632 t standard; 5,985 t normal; 6,268 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(541.47 ft / 524.93 ft) x 60.70 ft x (13.12 / 13.58 ft)
(165.04 m / 160.00 m) x 18.50 m x (4.00 / 4.14 m)

Armament:
9 - 5.91" / 150 mm 60.0 cal guns - 100.31lbs / 45.50kg shells, 180 per gun
Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1938 Model
9 x Triple mounts on centreline ends, majority forward
3 raised mounts - superfiring
10 - 3.46" / 88.0 mm 72.0 cal guns - 23.39lbs / 10.61kg shells, 400 per gun
Breech loading guns in deck mounts, 1938 Model
4 x Twin mounts on sides, evenly spread
1 x Twin mount on centreline aft
1 raised mount
16 - 1.46" / 37.0 mm 63.0 cal guns - 1.71lbs / 0.77kg shells, 1,000 per gun
Anti-air guns in deck mounts, 1928 Model
8 x Twin mounts on sides, evenly spread
4 raised mounts
20 - 0.79" / 20.0 mm 83.0 cal guns - 0.28lbs / 0.13kg shells, 2,000 per gun
Machine guns in deck mounts, 1929 Model
8 x Twin mounts on sides, evenly spread
4 raised mounts
2 x Twin mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
2 double raised mounts
Weight of broadside 1,170 lbs / 531 kg
Main Torpedoes
8 - 23.6" / 600 mm, 26.25 ft / 8.00 m torpedoes - 2.156 t each, 17.249 t total
In 2 sets of deck mounted side rotating tubes

Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 2.76" / 70 mm 341.21 ft / 104.00 m 9.22 ft / 2.81 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 100 % of normal length

- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 4.72" / 120 mm 2.76" / 70 mm 4.72" / 120 mm
2nd: 1.18" / 30 mm 0.79" / 20 mm -
3rd: 0.79" / 20 mm 0.39" / 10 mm -
4th: 0.39" / 10 mm - -

- Armoured deck - multiple decks:
For and Aft decks: 1.57" / 40 mm

- Conning towers: Forward 4.72" / 120 mm, Aft 0.00" / 0 mm

Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 2 shafts, 31,470 shp / 23,477 Kw = 27.00 kts
Range 6,000nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 637 tons

Complement:
339 - 442

Cost:
£2.582 million / $10.326 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 405 tons, 6.8 %
- Guns: 371 tons, 6.2 %
- Weapons: 34 tons, 0.6 %
Armour: 1,428 tons, 23.9 %
- Belts: 362 tons, 6.0 %
- Armament: 512 tons, 8.6 %
- Armour Deck: 520 tons, 8.7 %
- Conning Tower: 34 tons, 0.6 %
Machinery: 862 tons, 14.4 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 2,443 tons, 40.8 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 637 tons, 10.6 %
Miscellaneous weights: 210 tons, 3.5 %
- On freeboard deck: 180 tons
- Above deck: 30 tons

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
10,135 lbs / 4,597 Kg = 98.4 x 5.9 " / 150 mm shells or 1.3 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.09
Metacentric height 2.8 ft / 0.9 m
Roll period: 15.2 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 50 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.34
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.01

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck,
a normal bow and small transom stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.501 / 0.507
Length to Beam Ratio: 8.65 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 24.74 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 50 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 30.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 3.28 ft / 1.00 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 20.00 %, 22.97 ft / 7.00 m, 18.86 ft / 5.75 m
- Forward deck: 30.00 %, 18.86 ft / 5.75 m, 13.94 ft / 4.25 m
- Aft deck: 35.00 %, 13.94 ft / 4.25 m, 13.94 ft / 4.25 m
- Quarter deck: 15.00 %, 13.94 ft / 4.25 m, 13.94 ft / 4.25 m
- Average freeboard: 15.99 ft / 4.88 m
Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 71.3 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 178.1 %
Waterplane Area: 21,757 Square feet or 2,021 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 125 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 89 lbs/sq ft or 435 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.91
- Longitudinal: 0.90
- Overall: 0.90
Caution: Hull subject to strain in open-sea
Excellent machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Excellent accommodation and workspace room

180 tons allocated for additional space for workshops and classrooms.

30 tons for radar.

Quoted

Originally posted by Hrolf Hakonson
9 - 5.91" / 150 mm 60.0 cal guns - 100.31lbs / 45.50kg shells, 180 per gun
Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1938 Model
9 x Triple mounts on centreline ends, majority forward
3 raised mounts - superfiring

Um, whaaat? Trying to build the world's biggest turret farm?

Otherwise, the ship doesn't look too bad for the role. A lot like the historical Jeanne d'Arc of the period.

Bah, messed that up, didn't I? This is what it should look like.....


Bremse, Germany Training cruiser laid down 1938

Displacement:
4,429 t light; 4,692 t standard; 5,004 t normal; 5,254 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(508.67 ft / 492.13 ft) x 54.13 ft x (13.12 / 13.60 ft)
(155.04 m / 150.00 m) x 16.50 m x (4.00 / 4.15 m)

Armament:
9 - 5.91" / 150 mm 60.0 cal guns - 100.31lbs / 45.50kg shells, 180 per gun
Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1938 Model
3 x Triple mounts on centreline ends, majority forward
1 raised mount - superfiring
10 - 3.46" / 88.0 mm 72.0 cal guns - 23.39lbs / 10.61kg shells, 400 per gun
Breech loading guns in deck mounts, 1938 Model
4 x Twin mounts on sides, evenly spread
1 x Twin mount on centreline aft
1 raised mount
16 - 1.46" / 37.0 mm 63.0 cal guns - 1.71lbs / 0.77kg shells, 1,000 per gun
Anti-air guns in deck mounts, 1928 Model
8 x Twin mounts on sides, evenly spread
4 raised mounts
20 - 0.79" / 20.0 mm 83.0 cal guns - 0.28lbs / 0.13kg shells, 2,000 per gun
Machine guns in deck mounts, 1929 Model
8 x Twin mounts on sides, evenly spread
4 raised mounts
2 x Twin mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
2 double raised mounts
Weight of broadside 1,170 lbs / 531 kg
Main Torpedoes
8 - 23.6" / 600 mm, 26.25 ft / 8.00 m torpedoes - 2.156 t each, 17.249 t total
In 2 sets of deck mounted side rotating tubes

Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 2.76" / 70 mm 319.88 ft / 97.50 m 8.83 ft / 2.69 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 100 % of normal length

- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 4.72" / 120 mm 2.76" / 70 mm 4.72" / 120 mm
2nd: 1.18" / 30 mm 0.79" / 20 mm -
3rd: 0.79" / 20 mm 0.39" / 10 mm -
4th: 0.39" / 10 mm - -

- Armoured deck - multiple decks:
For and Aft decks: 1.57" / 40 mm

- Conning towers: Forward 4.72" / 120 mm, Aft 0.00" / 0 mm

Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 2 shafts, 28,486 shp / 21,251 Kw = 27.00 kts
Range 6,000nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 562 tons

Complement:
296 - 386

Cost:
£2.336 million / $9.343 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 405 tons, 8.1 %
- Guns: 371 tons, 7.4 %
- Weapons: 34 tons, 0.7 %
Armour: 1,090 tons, 21.8 %
- Belts: 323 tons, 6.4 %
- Armament: 302 tons, 6.0 %
- Armour Deck: 435 tons, 8.7 %
- Conning Tower: 30 tons, 0.6 %
Machinery: 780 tons, 15.6 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 1,904 tons, 38.0 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 576 tons, 11.5 %
Miscellaneous weights: 250 tons, 5.0 %
- On freeboard deck: 220 tons
- Above deck: 30 tons

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
7,487 lbs / 3,396 Kg = 72.7 x 5.9 " / 150 mm shells or 1.0 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.14
Metacentric height 2.5 ft / 0.8 m
Roll period: 14.3 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 53 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.37
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.06

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has raised forecastle,
a normal bow and small transom stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.501 / 0.507
Length to Beam Ratio: 9.09 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 23.90 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 52 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 30.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 3.28 ft / 1.00 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 20.00 %, 22.97 ft / 7.00 m, 18.86 ft / 5.75 m
- Forward deck: 30.00 %, 18.04 ft / 5.50 m, 13.12 ft / 4.00 m
- Aft deck: 35.00 %, 13.12 ft / 4.00 m, 13.12 ft / 4.00 m
- Quarter deck: 15.00 %, 13.12 ft / 4.00 m, 13.12 ft / 4.00 m
- Average freeboard: 15.34 ft / 4.68 m
Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 79.7 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 160.2 %
Waterplane Area: 18,192 Square feet or 1,690 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 116 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 81 lbs/sq ft or 398 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.89
- Longitudinal: 1.02
- Overall: 0.90
Caution: Hull subject to strain in open-sea
Excellent machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Excellent accommodation and workspace room

220 tons allocated for additional space for workshops and classrooms.

30 tons for radar.

Yup, that'll do.

Hmmmm. A little tweaking and I could get it under the 4500 standard tons break point and build it to only 0.75 strength....

I think I'd land one set of torpedo tubes and some of the 88mm guns to make more room. Quadruple 600mm torpedo tubes take up a lot of room on a ship this size.

Difficult to say exactly how much room classrooms and accommodation will take up, but probably quite a bit, and it's a small ship.

I could switch the 600mm tubes for 533mms, the training would be essentially the same. That wouldn't save that much space, though. I can't very well go down to 1 set of tubes, though, she'd be unbalanced then, and very limited should she need to serve as an escort in wartime.

Do you need all four tubes on each side? I was thinking maybe two sets of two, or two sets of three, on each side would suffice...

Right now, it has 1 quadruple mount on each side. I could take it down to 1 triple mount per side, but anything less than that would be totally pointless in wartime.

And yes, less than 4 torps on each beam seems insufficient.

Why build a custom made training cruiser? A older warship does the same job cheaper.

Quoted

Originally posted by TexanCowboy
Why build a custom made training cruiser? A older warship does the same job cheaper.

That's my general position as well. Germany might be a bit hampered due to it's lengthy building delay imposed by Versailles, tho; It's older construction is woefully outdated (if Hrolf hasn't gotten rid of it entirely by now), and the newer construction is...well, rather new.

If thats the case, I would build the training ship to destroyer tech. Omit some speed, though, for some miscellanous weight.

The problem for Germany is that we have very few older warships, between the Great War, Versailles, and selling off older ships (there's now nothing left except for a target vessel that dates from before 1921). At one time, there were plans for converting Prinz Regent Luitpold to a training ship, but further examination showed that idea to be too costly..

If Germany would like to buy Stara Zagora (ex-SMS Hamburg) from Bulgaria, she's already been converted to a training cruiser and was re-engined and modernized within the last ten years. Alternately, if Germany doesn't want to buy (and let's face it, the ship's old) I'd be willing to rent her to Germany for a song while the Germans are building their own modern training ship.

One of the disadvantages of an older training ship is that much of the equipment is out-of-date and won't be seen on modern vessels, whereas a modern training ship is fitted with the latest machinery and equipment these men will be using when they join the fleet.

Just my 2 cents...

That's another reason why Germany is looking at this sort of a vessel: it will have up-to-date equipment (no coal stoking, for one thing, modern fire control directors and radar for others). Of course, over time, it will become outmoded, but so will anything.

Quoted

Originally posted by Hrolf Hakonson
no coal stoking, for one thing

Stara Zagora's an oil burner after 1927. Can't say she's got radar and modern fire-control, though...

Quoted

Originally posted by Brockpaine

Quoted

Originally posted by Hrolf Hakonson
no coal stoking, for one thing

Stara Zagora's an oil burner after 1927. Can't say she's got radar and modern fire-control, though...

Heh, I was referring to the cost-reduced plan for converting Prinz Regent Luitpold to a training ship (the original plan had her being converted to oil-firing along with losing her wing turrets).

Quoted

Originally posted by Hrolf Hakonson
Heh, I was referring to the cost-reduced plan for converting Prinz Regent Luitpold to a training ship (the original plan had her being converted to oil-firing along with losing her wing turrets).

I found it extremely pricey to convert my old battlewagons to a training ship and a target ship respectively. However at the time the Dutch were capped in several treaty categories, so I spent the funds and field a variety of training vessels. The Belgians just built new... because they only had one decent ship.

Likewise I've found that for experimental vessels I far prefer the DD-X and Sub-X because the cost and time of swapping weapons/directors/radar/etc for evaluation is much less than on the CL-X.

Quoted

Originally posted by eltf177
One of the disadvantages of an older training ship is that much of the equipment is out-of-date and won't be seen on modern vessels, whereas a modern training ship is fitted with the latest machinery and equipment these men will be using when they join the fleet.

Just my 2 cents...

Generally my opinion as well. Plus you can work in dedicated training space like Hrolfs 220 tons.

On this ship I wonder if there might be utility in a more mixed weapons suit to allow training with more variety.