WesWorld

Nordmark would be interested in adding a carrier to her fleet.

Either we will buy an existing carrier or will commission a country to build a ship for us.
New ships would idealy be of 17000t standard displacement

So please place you bids gentlemen

Too bad about the 17,000 mark otherwise I could have offered a Soryu class carrier (newly built).
Or perhaps a slightly modified Chosen class carrier...

It would be helpful if Nordmark could indicate:

-Where is the carrier to be used?

-How does Nordmark value armor, speed, and airgroup size?

-When does Nordmark seek to have the vessel laid down?

I wonder why Nordmark is interesting in foreign designs at all?

So far domestic yards have always been able to deliver what was needed....

If Nordmark is interesting in it´s ally´s designs (which can be found in the encyclopedia) - let me know and we´ll discuss things.

An upsized Alioth design with a TB and Nordish weapons would be the likely design to come out of Atlantis, however I have no way of truely determining Nordish/Atlantean relations post Argentine war.

Quoted

I wonder why Nordmark is interesting in foreign designs at all?

Carrier technology is a department in which Nordmark is desperately laking, I will though be creating my own designs as well.

Quoted

If Nordmark is interesting in it´s ally´s designs (which can be found in the encyclopedia) - let me know and we´ll discuss things.

I am, especially in terms of what size of airgroup they might carry

http://wesworld.jk-clan.de/thread.php?th…d2f8c171f8b5213

For SAE carriers, sadly without pictures. Airgroup of 84.

It depends what sort of carrier you want?

American-style, with external un-armoured hangar, or internal armoured hangars?

Maximising airgroup at the expense of armour? Whether or not to have large-calibre weapons.

Quoted

Originally posted by Earl822

Quoted

If Nordmark is interesting in it´s ally´s designs (which can be found in the encyclopedia) - let me know and we´ll discuss things.

I am, especially in terms of what size of airgroup they might carry

The RSAN got two purpose build carriers so far, both of which are about 20kts in size. They feature armor for flight deck and hangar and have an airgroup of about 84 planes. They traded speed for armor and airgroup.

If the size of a carriers airgroup is the criteria you´re interested in then there is an RSAN design of about 17kts which can operate 80 planes and has a speed in excess of 30kn. However, you better should not expect much armor or guns larger than 115mm.

Pity I cant build them for you. I have a pair of designs, one 15,500t, the other 18,000t. But they are years into the future.

India could foresee submitting an enlarged Urumi-type carrier.

-The heavy anti-surface battery is retained, recognizing that the carrier may see use in confined areas or areas with poor visibility.

-The 11 cm anti-aircraft battery is enclosed in turrets, primarily to protect the crews from the elements.

-There is a single hanger deck, fully enclosed and protected with armor plate. The latter is retained for the same reason the heavy guns are.

-Capacity for 50 aircraft, with six dis-assembled spares (at 25 t each) and 50 t for flag facilities.

-Seakeeping is good, as is steadiness, for the strong weather conditions up that way.

-A torpedo bulkhead is installed, not only to protect against torpedos and mines, but also against ice that may be encountered.

India could, for a nominal fee, begin construction of a unit in 1931. Alternately, the design and techinical support could be provided for a lesser fee in support of Nordmark-based construction.

Information on current Indian carrier aircraft can be seen in the encyclopedia.

[OOC: Note that the entire Indian submission would only be made available to Nordmark - it's here for out-of-character discussion]


Nordmarchian CV, laid down 1931

Length, 220.0 m x Beam, 25.0 m x Depth, 6.4 m
18809 tonnes normal displacement (17048 tonnes standard)

Main battery: 6 x 15.0-cm (2 x 3; 1 superfiring)
Secondary battery: 16 x 11.0-cm (8 x 2)
AA battery: 24 x 3.5-cm (12 x 2)
Light battery: 16 x 1.5-cm (4 x 4)

Weight of broadside: 591 kg

Main belt, 8.0 cm; ends unarmored
Upper belt, 8.0 cm
Torpedo bulkhead, 5.0 cm
Armor deck, average 5.0 cm
Conning tower, 8.0 cm

Battery armor:
Main, 8.0 cm / secondary, 2.0 cm
AA, 2.0 cm shields / light guns, 2.0 cm shields

Maximum speed for 85030 shaft kw = 31.59 knots
Approximate cruising radius, 15000 nm / 12 knots

Typical complement: 803-1044


Estimated cost, $20.829 million (£5.207 million)

Remarks:

Superfiring turret is aft.

Main turrets are grouped together.

Relative extent of belt armor, 110 percent of 'typical' coverage.

Ship has slow, easy roll; a good, steady gun platform.

Good seaboat; rides out heavy weather easily.

Ship is roomy, with superior accommodation and working space.


Distribution of weights:
Percent
normal
displacement:

Armament ......................... 163 tonnes = 1 pct
Armor, total ..................... 3725 tonnes = 20 pct

Belt 1273 tonnes = 7 pct
Torpedo bulkhead 717 tonnes = 4 pct
Deck 1408 tonnes = 7 pct
C.T. 48 tonnes = 0 pct
Armament 279 tonnes = 1 pct

Machinery ........................ 3407 tonnes = 18 pct
Hull and fittings; equipment ..... 6568 tonnes = 35 pct
Fuel, ammunition, stores ......... 2246 tonnes = 12 pct
Miscellaneous weights ............ 2700 tonnes = 14 pct
-----
18809 tonnes = 100 pct

Estimated metacentric height, 1.5 m

Displacement summary:

Light ship: 16564 tonnes
Standard displacement: 17048 tonnes
Normal service: 18809 tonnes
Full load: 20143 tonnes

Loading submergence 3624 tonnes/metre

+++++++++++++++++++++++++


Estimated overall survivability and seakeeping ability:

Relative margin of stability: 1.17

Shellfire needed to sink: 9076 kg = 193.9 x 15.0-cm shells
(Approximates weight of penetrating
shell hits needed to sink ship,
not counting critical hits)

Torpedoes needed to sink: 2.8
(Approximates number of 'typical'
torpedo hits needed to sink ship)

Relative steadiness as gun platform, 70 percent
(50 percent is 'average')

Relative rocking effect from firing to beam, 0.12

Relative quality as a seaboat: 1.21

+++++++++++++++++++++++++


Hull form characteristics:

Block coefficient: 0.53
Sharpness coefficient: 0.36
Hull speed coefficient 'M' = 8.30
'Natural speed' for length = 26.9 knots
Power going to wave formation
at top speed: 52 percent


Estimated hull characteristics and strength:

Relative underwater volume absorbed by
magazines and engineering spaces: 108 percent

Relative accommodation and working space: 202 percent


Displacement factor: 130 percent
(Displacement relative to loading factors)


Relative cross-sectional hull strength: 1.00
(Structure weight per square
metre of hull surface: 565 kg)

Relative longitudinal hull strength: 1.01
(for 6.70 m average freeboard;
freeboard adjustment +1.46 m)

Relative composite hull strength: 1.00

+++++++++++++++++++++++++


[Machine-readable parameters: Spring Style v. 1.2.1]

721.60 x 82.00 x 20.99; 21.98 -- Dimensions
0.53 -- Block coefficient
1931 -- Year laid down
31.59 / 15000 / 12.00; Oil-fired turbine or equivalent -- Speed / radius / cruise
2700 tons -- Miscellaneous weights
++++++++++
6 x 5.91; 2; 1 -- Main battery; turrets; superfiring
Central positioning of guns
Superfiring turret aft only
:
16 x 4.33; 8 -- Secondary battery; turrets
:
24 x 1.38 -- Tertiary (QF/AA) battery
Gun-shields
:
16 x 0.59 -- Fourth (light) battery
0 -- No torpedo armament
++++++++++
3.15 / 0.00 / 3.15 / 1.97; 110 -- Belt armor; relative extent
1.97 / 3.15 -- Deck / CT
3.15 / 0.79 / 0.79 / 0.79 -- Battery armor


(Note: For portability, values are stored in Anglo-American units)


+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

This is what I would build myself


ørn, Nordmark Aircraft Carrier laid down 1930

Displacement:
21,093 t light; 21,693 t standard; 25,005 t normal; 27,654 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
736.12 ft / 720.00 ft x 85.00 ft x 26.00 ft (normal load)
224.37 m / 219.46 m x 25.91 m x 7.92 m

Armament:
8 - 5.90" / 150 mm guns (4x2 guns), 102.69lbs / 46.58kg shells, 1930 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
4 - 4.30" / 109 mm guns in single mounts, 39.75lbs / 18.03kg shells, 1930 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, all amidships, all raised mounts - superfiring
8 - 3.00" / 76.2 mm guns (4x2 guns), 13.50lbs / 6.12kg shells, 1930 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread
16 - 1.46" / 37.0 mm guns (4x4 guns), 1.55lbs / 0.70kg shells, 1930 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
Weight of broadside 1,113 lbs / 505 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 150

Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 4.00" / 102 mm 510.00 ft / 155.45 m 12.00 ft / 3.66 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 109 % of normal length

- Torpedo Bulkhead:
1.50" / 38 mm 510.00 ft / 155.45 m 26.00 ft / 7.92 m

- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 5.00" / 127 mm 2.00" / 51 mm 5.00" / 127 mm
2nd: 2.00" / 51 mm 1.00" / 25 mm 1.00" / 25 mm

- Armour deck: 3.00" / 76 mm, Conning tower: 4.00" / 102 mm

Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 4 shafts, 143,988 shp / 107,415 Kw = 32.00 kts
Range 15,000nm at 15.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 5,961 tons

Complement:
993 - 1,292

Cost:
£6.131 million / $24.522 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 139 tons, 0.6 %
Armour: 4,584 tons, 18.3 %
- Belts: 1,022 tons, 4.1 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 736 tons, 2.9 %
- Armament: 382 tons, 1.5 %
- Armour Deck: 2,370 tons, 9.5 %
- Conning Tower: 74 tons, 0.3 %
Machinery: 4,363 tons, 17.4 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 7,506 tons, 30.0 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 3,912 tons, 15.6 %
Miscellaneous weights: 4,500 tons, 18.0 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
34,619 lbs / 15,703 Kg = 337.1 x 5.9 " / 150 mm shells or 4.8 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.18
Metacentric height 5.3 ft / 1.6 m
Roll period: 15.5 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 58 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.09
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.16

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.550
Length to Beam Ratio: 8.47 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 26.83 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 55 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 25.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 4.00 ft / 1.22 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 26.00 ft / 7.92 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 22.00 ft / 6.71 m
- Mid (50 %): 22.00 ft / 6.71 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 22.00 ft / 6.71 m
- Stern: 22.00 ft / 6.71 m
- Average freeboard: 22.32 ft / 6.80 m
Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 106.2 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 180.2 %
Waterplane Area: 42,711 Square feet or 3,968 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 132 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 120 lbs/sq ft or 585 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.99
- Longitudinal: 1.09
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent

Can Carry 60 planes, plus spares

With carriers, its the details that matter.

Why are there 150mm guns at each end? This will hugely cut down on the length of the flight deck.

Earl, if you'd build a 22,000 t ship, why would you ask for bids for 17,000 ships?

I noticed that as well. If you are going the whole hog for 22.000tons, then Yortown or Ark-II?

I've no idea why I went for it, having seen how much more 22,000ton carriers can have I'm tempted to up the tonnage for Nordmarks first carrier

Fair enough. There won't be any Indian bids for such a vessel - 22,000 t is outside the scope of their studies.

At 22,000 tons, I guess I can offer that Soryu carrier...

Nordmark will probably consider to construct a small carrier at home, and then purchase a larger model from a country with greater experience in carrier production.

Here is my proposed home-built small carrier

Gås, Nordmark Heavy Cruiser laid down 1929

Displacement:
14,113 t light; 14,502 t standard; 16,413 t normal; 17,942 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
644.91 ft / 640.00 ft x 68.00 ft x 24.00 ft (normal load)
196.57 m / 195.07 m x 20.73 m x 7.32 m

Armament:
6 - 5.90" / 150 mm guns in single mounts, 102.69lbs / 46.58kg shells, 1929 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
4 - 3.00" / 76.2 mm guns in single mounts, 13.50lbs / 6.12kg shells, 1929 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, all amidships, all raised mounts - superfiring
16 - 1.46" / 37.0 mm guns (4x4 guns), 1.55lbs / 0.70kg shells, 1929 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
Weight of broadside 695 lbs / 315 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 150

Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 4.00" / 102 mm 360.00 ft / 109.73 m 10.00 ft / 3.05 m
Ends: 1.00" / 25 mm 280.00 ft / 85.34 m 10.00 ft / 3.05 m
Main Belt covers 87 % of normal length

- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 5.00" / 127 mm 3.00" / 76 mm 3.00" / 76 mm
2nd: 2.00" / 51 mm - -
3rd: 2.00" / 51 mm - -

- Armour deck: 2.50" / 64 mm, Conning tower: 5.00" / 127 mm

Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 4 shafts, 88,298 shp / 65,870 Kw = 30.00 kts
Range 11,000nm at 15.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 3,441 tons

Complement:
724 - 942

Cost:
£3.786 million / $15.145 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 87 tons, 0.5 %
Armour: 2,319 tons, 14.1 %
- Belts: 722 tons, 4.4 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 123 tons, 0.7 %
- Armour Deck: 1,405 tons, 8.6 %
- Conning Tower: 70 tons, 0.4 %
Machinery: 2,712 tons, 16.5 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 4,995 tons, 30.4 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2,301 tons, 14.0 %
Miscellaneous weights: 4,000 tons, 24.4 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
21,059 lbs / 9,552 Kg = 205.1 x 5.9 " / 150 mm shells or 2.2 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.01
Metacentric height 2.9 ft / 0.9 m
Roll period: 16.9 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 66 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.16
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.31

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.550
Length to Beam Ratio: 9.41 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 25.30 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 53 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 10.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 27.83 ft / 8.48 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 22.00 ft / 6.71 m
- Mid (50 %): 22.00 ft / 6.71 m
- Quarterdeck (20 %): 22.00 ft / 6.71 m
- Stern: 22.00 ft / 6.71 m
- Average freeboard: 22.47 ft / 6.85 m
Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 84.8 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 175.8 %
Waterplane Area: 30,372 Square feet or 2,822 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 132 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 102 lbs/sq ft or 500 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.98
- Longitudinal: 1.30
- Overall: 1.01
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

Gås

Can carry 40 aircraft

Sure hope the additional 2400 tons is not for extra ammunition for the Smoking Filipinos (tm) to blow up!
O_O

She won't be going any where near them, i hope