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This post has been edited 1 times, last edit by "howard" (Jul 24th 2008, 6:03pm)
Quoted
Originally posted by Red Admiral
I don't think anyone has APCR shot in service or even in development yet. Closest are some taper-bore weapons, but they're small calibre. Protection against 50mm class weapons means quite a heavy tank, probably early M4. Gives a fair few transport problems.
Quoted
Originally posted by howard
e. standard infantry rifle-semi-automatic self-loading preferred.
f. portable machine gun to use ammunition comparable to rifle.
g. submachine gun or carbine optimized for jungle conditions caliber to be common with rifle.
Quoted
Originally posted by Brockpaine
Quoted
Originally posted by howard
e. standard infantry rifle-semi-automatic self-loading preferred.
f. portable machine gun to use ammunition comparable to rifle.
g. submachine gun or carbine optimized for jungle conditions caliber to be common with rifle.
These requirements are extremely at odds with each other, and thus impossible to fill, unless we're using, say, pixie magic.
Quoted
Originally posted by Brockpaine
All three of which use the .223 round. Germany's still laying the foundation for their semiautomatic rifle, and the US *JUST* adopted the .276 Garand. Atlantis is playing with the 7x45 Aiolos for a carbine, but has no production orders made SFAIK.Quoted
The Federov is 1916.
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There is very little historical basis in the thirties for a subcaliber rifle, and we're already pushing it here for semiauto battle rifles. In the thirties most countries are still preferring bolt-action rifles, after all - and there are perhaps only two or three quality semiautos in existence, even in Wesworld. I have the Bulgarians toying with the semiauto "Samo-Tovarene Pushka Radichkov 1936" or STPR-36, which will eventually be refined into the STPR-39 following the lessons observed in Yugoslavia.
http://world.guns.ru/smg/smg02-e.htm
in response to
http://world.guns.ru/smg/smg52-e.htm
Quoted
To go from Mausers to an M16/SAW/M4 requires excessive amounts of foresight, IMHO... not to mention a massive change in training and most importantly, *the supply office*.
Well Siam is going through a defense review:
Quoted
I'd just love to wave my hand and give the Bulgars FN FALs, but it's unrealistic to me to see countries doing much more than testing the waters for semiautos.
The US started in 1925.
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This is Wesworld, not Hindsightworld, afterall.
Agreed. Still there is that insane Siamese staff officer.
H.
Quoted
Originally posted by howard
The Federov is 1916.
Quoted
Quoted
There is very little historical basis in the thirties for a subcaliber rifle, and we're already pushing it here for semiauto battle rifles. In the thirties most countries are still preferring bolt-action rifles, after all - and there are perhaps only two or three quality semiautos in existence, even in Wesworld. I have the Bulgarians toying with the semiauto "Samo-Tovarene Pushka Radichkov 1936" or STPR-36, which will eventually be refined into the STPR-39 following the lessons observed in Yugoslavia.
http://world.guns.ru/smg/smg02-e.htm
in response to
http://world.guns.ru/smg/smg52-e.htm
Quoted
Quoted
I'd just love to wave my hand and give the Bulgars FN FALs, but it's unrealistic to me to see countries doing much more than testing the waters for semiautos.
The US started in 1925.
Quoted
Agreed. Still there is that insane Siamese staff officer.
This post has been edited 1 times, last edit by "Brockpaine" (Jul 25th 2008, 4:53am)
Quoted
Originally posted by Brockpaine
If Siam wants a SABR, then there are probably enough nascent designs in WW to get a working Siamese design within three or four years. If Siam wants an SMG, then there are probably enough of those that you can order off the shelf. Designing something more fancy will take a really long time.
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When I helped Wes put together the Atlantean small-arms, I pulled together a lot of research to make it as realistic as possible. You can see what we came up with. Like the US, Atlantis is starting to work into semi-auto battle rifles as well, and has the very beginning pieces for a good semiauto battle rifle (the Iacchus-Lycurgus SLR) and a semiauto carbine (the Azeas-Petra prototype).
Quoted
The only reason I'm putting Bulgaria on the SLR trail already is because they're working VERY closely with the Swiss design firms, who are shouldering much of the weight, and perhaps the actual production. The Czech-owned Brno arsenal might even be in on the development, which adds more money and genius. The Bulgarians are providing funding and their lead weapons-ideas-monger, Iliya Radichkov, who has been tinkering with an SLR ever since I picked up Bulgaria. However, ordering the STPR-36 en masse right now will merely net me a bunch of mediocre, untested, expensive rifles.
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Honestly, I think Siam would be wasting good money to try to purchase or develop a SABR at this point. Better to spend it buying and then refining a good solid SMG design. Your point number three there is a strong argument AGAINST buying an SLR: you just don't need the extra range, because an SMG will do beautifully, and exists in numbers already. I'd suggest keeping your Mausers as the main rifle for the present, and then picking up an SMG design. By the 1940s, somebody's going to have a solid and less-expensive SLR design for export, and you'll have enough SMGs in the armed forces to redirect funds to purchasing them.
Quoted
Should Siam still be interested in getting an SLR, and should they be interested in the STPR-36, contact the design team via either SIG or Derzhavna Voenna Fabrika. Or you could talk to your Italian allies, who have a rifle in limited service as well... or Madsen, which had a SLR/LMG from 1896...
This post has been edited 1 times, last edit by "howard" (Jul 25th 2008, 5:16am)
Quoted
Originally posted by howard
The technical mission that can meet these specifications in toto closest will be the preferred source of procurement for modernization.
... to a modern light infantry force, built on a Kongolese quick reaction brigade model
H.
Quoted
Originally posted by howard
The fact that you know about that piece of crud Ljungmann self-loading rifle shows me that you are an expert in the subject field.
Quoted
Should Siam still be interested in getting an SLR, and should they be interested in the STPR-36, contact the design team via either SIG or Derzhavna Voenna Fabrika. Or you could talk to your Italian allies, who have a rifle in limited service as well... or Madsen, which had a SLR/LMG from 1896...
Quoted
Originally posted by Brockpaine
For instance:
- Bulgaria's DAR (State Airplane Factory) is 49% owned by Avia/Fokker, and was modernized by them.
- Belgian company Brossels is building (has built?) a factory in Bulgaria for production of Brossels TAL 13-ton 4x4 artillery tractor (see the Danish 1935 news or talk to Kaiser Kirk).
This post has been edited 1 times, last edit by "Kaiser Kirk" (Jul 25th 2008, 7:33am)
This post has been edited 1 times, last edit by "Hrolf Hakonson" (Jul 25th 2008, 12:10pm)
Quoted
Originally posted by Kaiser Kirk
I've noticed you keep mentioning the FN-FAL, while it will appear in Wesworld in advance of the OTL(1), it still has sometime to go.
(1) +3 years tech line, +3 for the missing war years, so about ~1946, preceeded by the FN-49 in 1943, and the 1939 semi-auto about...well now. Hmm I thought I had a bit more to wait before that became available.
Quoted
Originally posted by Hrolf Hakonson
Given some of Siam's terrain, and interest in automatic weapons (though I suspect the quartermaster corps will be unhappy), I'd look for something along the lines of the Hungarian Model 39 SMG - uses a powerful (for an SMG) cartridge (9mm Mauser), available from a neutral, etc. An expensive (and heavy) alternative would be to contact Auto Ordnance in the US and buy Thompsons (and lots of 0.45" ACP).
Historically, some Czech ZH-29s were purchased by Siam as well.
I'll look and see what I've worked out on this before, I know Swampy and I discussed what Siam used.
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