WesWorld

16 Sadko class merchant ships built by private yards in 1929 will be purchased and refitted in 1930 as supply ships and tenders for light forces. Flotillas on prolonged deployment will be provided one for support:

Sadko class, Russian Corvette/Minelayer/Sub Tender laid down 1929

Displacement:
2,584 t light; 2,647 t standard; 2,942 t normal; 3,179 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
317.62 ft / 295.28 ft x 49.21 ft x 11.81 ft (normal load)
96.81 m / 90.00 m x 15.00 m x 3.60 m

Armament:
4 - 1.46" / 37.0 mm guns (2x2 guns), 1.55lbs / 0.70kg shells, 1929 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts with hoists
on centreline, evenly spread
4 - 0.50" / 12.7 mm guns in single mounts, 0.06lbs / 0.03kg shells, 1929 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on centreline ends, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 6 lbs / 3 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 1,000

Machinery:
Coal and oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 2 shafts, 5,903 shp / 4,404 Kw = 18.00 kts
Range 7,200nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 532 tons (15% coal)

Complement:
199 - 259

Cost:
£0.467 million / $1.870 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 1 tons, 0.0 %
Machinery: 184 tons, 6.2 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 799 tons, 27.2 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 358 tons, 12.2 %
Miscellaneous weights: 1,600 tons, 54.4 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
4,122 lbs / 1,870 Kg = 2,667.2 x 1.5 " / 37 mm shells or 1.3 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.10
Metacentric height 2.1 ft / 0.6 m
Roll period: 14.3 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 51 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.00
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.50

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has raised forecastle, raised quarterdeck
Block coefficient: 0.600
Length to Beam Ratio: 6.00 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 17.18 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 52 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 34
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 30.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 9.84 ft / 3.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 21.65 ft / 6.60 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 18.04 ft / 5.50 m (11.15 ft / 3.40 m aft of break)
- Mid (50 %): 11.15 ft / 3.40 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 16.40 ft / 5.00 m (11.15 ft / 3.40 m before break)
- Stern: 16.40 ft / 5.00 m
- Average freeboard: 13.61 ft / 4.15 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 80.2 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 113.5 %
Waterplane Area: 10,628 Square feet or 987 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 149 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 54 lbs/sq ft or 262 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.94
- Longitudinal: 1.71
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate
Excellent seaboat, comfortable, can fire her guns in the heaviest weather

Quoted

Originally posted by AdmKuznetsov
16 Sadko class merchant ships built by private yards in 1929 will be purchased and refitted in 1930 as supply ships and tenders for light forces. Flotillas on prolonged deployment will be provided one for support:

Hi AdmK,

those yre useful tenders, methinks. 1,600ts of misc weight should be enough for crew and staff quarters as well as work shops and other equipment. Being coal fired will surely help your navy to use them in waters some distance away from oil supply.

However, I wonder about the way you got these vessel.

If those units are build for the Russian navy Russia´s government should have payed for them (material costs) and used Navy slips, shouldn´t they? Of course that would have been much more expensive given our rules...

I can´t think of any private owner that would order 16 (!) freighters of one class in one year. 3, 4 maybe 5 ships, okay, but 16 really is a lot even if the individual units isn´t that large. So this looks like an official order by the Russian government covered/labeled as "private order". Could you please give some more details? Otherwise it looks as if those ships just popped into existance at a time the Russian navy needs them and pays only minimal costs.

My guess is that they are new builds based on the Sadko class vessels and not 16 vessels built for pivate firms. In other words the Russian navy ordered 16 sadkos to a modified tender design.

At 2,586 tons and 308 feet long they should be able to be built within a year using type 1 slips.

"purchased and refitted"?!

What is the price of whose ships?

Quoted

Coal and oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 2 shafts, 5,903 shp / 4,404 Kw = 18.00 kts
Range 7,200nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 532 tons (15% coal)

Thats not very likely. Most probably Coal-fired reciprocating engines. 18knts is definitely too fast. Its more likely to be 12-14knts or so. If she was a banana boat I'd expect her to be faster and possibly with turbines or diesels, but bananas don't grow in the RF.

Shes extremely small for a merchie as well. Most vessels were about 6000-8000GRT. This one is about 1400GRT.

Quoted

I can´t think of any private owner that would order 16 (!) freighters of one class in one year.

Wouldn't it also slightly annoy the private owner that the government just grabbed his ships?

Of course, this IS Russia, so the annoyed owner could find Bolsheviks camped out on his lawn if he was too loud about things.....

Quoted

Originally posted by Red Admiral

Quoted

I can´t think of any private owner that would order 16 (!) freighters of one class in one year.

Wouldn't it also slightly annoy the private owner that the government just grabbed his ships?

Well, he said "purchased" - so there should be costs for the navy/government (equal to light displacement?).

From a technical point of view, I have three thoughts:

-It would be good to have a sense of how the miscellaneous weight is being used - how much is fuel, how much is crew quarters, and so forth.

-The freeboard will be somewhat low if the ship happens to include accommodation for the crews of its flock.

-I'd trim the ship differently. With all that miscellaneous weight being loaded, moved around, and unloaded, some additional stability would be a good thing - while a steady gun platform is probably not really necessary (or, considering the light armament, even all that useful).

If the ships using this as a parent ship are oil fueled it would make sense to have the parent ship oil fueled as well - the mother ship could help with replenishment from it's own bunkerage.

Also, if the ship is relatively slow, it might be pratical to use the same power plant as the ships using it. This would simplify stocking repair parts and having a trained repair crew on hand (they could do double duty)

It was my understanding from this thread:

http://wesworld.jk-clan.de/thread.php?th…3226d6d77a0f7f1

that the way you acquire auxiliaries in the WesWorld was by refitting, and that the ships you need to build from the keel up with warship materials were specialized ships like AMCs and icebreakers.

Quoted

Thats not very likely. Most probably Coal-fired reciprocating engines. 18knts is definitely too fast. Its more likely to be 12-14knts or so. If she was a banana boat I'd expect her to be faster and possibly with turbines or diesels, but bananas don't grow in the RF.

The Russian fleet has a cruising speed of 15 kts, and the auxiliaries have gotta at least keep up with that, with a touch more if circumstances require.

And thanks for the suggestion on the trim Rocky. Going for "steady gun platform" has gotten to be a reflex.

I suppose logic and realize sometimes don't mix with rules (Chile's got a what with 16 main guns?), so I can't say either way what should be done in this case.

All I know is that many classes of tenders, at least in the United States, usually have fewer ships in each class. Though I don't think that would stop the different classes from being more or less the same ship, just they would be fitted out for different tasks.

I could spread the purchase of the 16 out over four years or so.

I mean, its not like the Russian Fleet has got such a tempo of current ops that I need 16 of 'em right this minute.

Having three diferent types of tendee's... Corvettes, Minelayers and Subs, I can see the need for 16 ships albeit maybe not right away...

The benifit to this discussion is that my own tender program will benifit from the idea's posted.

Anyone have any idea how many personell a DD tender would accomodate?

This one has the trim reduced, some more range, 100 tons less misc weight, and a bit more ammo for the AA guns.

It also has a guess at how the misc weight is allocated. I'll do 3 corvette/minelayer tenders and 1 sub tender in 1930:

Sadko class, Russian Corvette/Minelayer/Sub Tender laid down 1929

Displacement:
2,484 t light; 2,549 t standard; 2,942 t normal; 3,256 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
308.94 ft / 295.28 ft x 49.21 ft x 11.81 ft (normal load)
94.16 m / 90.00 m x 15.00 m x 3.60 m

Armament:
4 - 1.46" / 37.0 mm guns (2x2 guns), 1.55lbs / 0.70kg shells, 1929 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts with hoists
on centreline ends, evenly spread, all raised mounts
4 - 0.50" / 12.7 mm guns in single mounts, 0.06lbs / 0.03kg shells, 1929 Model
Machine guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
Weight of broadside 6 lbs / 3 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 1,700

Machinery:
Coal and oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 2 shafts, 5,903 shp / 4,404 Kw = 18.00 kts
Range 5,400nm at 15.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 707 tons (15% coal)

Complement:
40 - 52

Cost:
£0.453 million / $1.814 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 1 tons, 0.0 %
Machinery: 184 tons, 6.2 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 799 tons, 27.2 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 458 tons, 15.6 %
Miscellaneous weights: 1,500 tons, 51.0 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
4,375 lbs / 1,985 Kg = 2,831.1 x 1.5 " / 37 mm shells or 1.3 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.14
Metacentric height 2.2 ft / 0.7 m
Roll period: 13.9 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 50 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.00
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.50

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has raised forecastle, raised quarterdeck
Block coefficient: 0.600
Length to Beam Ratio: 6.00 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 17.18 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 52 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 33
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 10.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 9.84 ft / 3.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 21.65 ft / 6.60 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 18.04 ft / 5.50 m (11.15 ft / 3.40 m aft of break)
- Mid (50 %): 11.15 ft / 3.40 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 16.40 ft / 5.00 m (11.15 ft / 3.40 m before break)
- Stern: 16.40 ft / 5.00 m
- Average freeboard: 13.61 ft / 4.15 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 76.7 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 113.5 %
Waterplane Area: 10,628 Square feet or 987 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 157 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 54 lbs/sq ft or 262 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.94
- Longitudinal: 1.71
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate
Excellent seaboat, comfortable, can fire her guns in the heaviest weather

For a corvette or minelayer tender, the 1500 tons misc weight is divided as follows:
600 tons fuel (enough to half-fill 10 corvettes or fast minelayers)
300 tons accomodations for crews (150). This will accomodate about 1/4 of the crews of a corvette flotilla or fast minelayer flotilla, to relieve overcrowding on long deployments.
100 tons workshop spaces
200 tons spare parts (warship materials for repairs)
300 tons supplies

For a sub tender, the 1500 tons misc weight is divided as follows:
1000 tons fuel (enough to half-fill a Molchkom class sub flotilla)
150 tons accomodations (75). This will accomodate about 1/4 of the crews of a Molchkom class sub flotilla.
100 tons workshop spaces
100 tons spare parts (warship materials for repairs)
150 tons supplies

The Pallada class light cruisers will be extensively reconstructed in 1930, being lengthened and having their 14 152mm single mounts replaced by 8 152mm guns in twin turrets. The will also mount 6 of the 65cm torpedo tubes used on the Minsk class Torpedo cruisers.

Pallada Class reconstructed, Russian Light Cruiser laid down 1897 (Engine 1930)

Displacement:
5,701 t light; 5,995 t standard; 6,759 t normal; 7,370 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
478.42 ft / 465.88 ft x 55.12 ft x 17.72 ft (normal load)
145.82 m / 142.00 m x 16.80 m x 5.40 m

Armament:
8 - 5.98" / 152 mm guns (4x2 guns), 123.46lbs / 56.00kg shells, 1930 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
8 - 3.94" / 100 mm guns (4x2 guns), 37.48lbs / 17.00kg shells, 1930 Model
Dual purpose guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts
24 - 1.46" / 37.0 mm guns (6x4 guns), 1.55lbs / 0.70kg shells, 1930 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts with hoists
on centreline ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
4 - 0.50" / 12.7 mm guns in single mounts, 0.06lbs / 0.03kg shells, 1930 Model
Machine guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
Weight of broadside 1,325 lbs / 601 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 200
6 - 25.6" / 650 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 3.15" / 80 mm 316.44 ft / 96.45 m 9.84 ft / 3.00 m
Ends: 1.18" / 30 mm 142.88 ft / 43.55 m 6.56 ft / 2.00 m
6.56 ft / 2.00 m Unarmoured ends
Upper: 1.97" / 50 mm 316.44 ft / 96.45 m 6.56 ft / 2.00 m
Main Belt covers 104 % of normal length

- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 3.15" / 80 mm 1.97" / 50 mm 2.76" / 70 mm
2nd: 0.98" / 25 mm 0.20" / 5 mm -
3rd: 0.98" / 25 mm 0.20" / 5 mm -
4th: 0.98" / 25 mm 0.20" / 5 mm -

- Armour deck: 0.98" / 25 mm, Conning tower: 3.15" / 80 mm

Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 2 shafts, 58,645 shp / 43,749 Kw = 30.00 kts
Range 7,500nm at 15.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 1,376 tons

Complement:
372 - 484

Cost:
£0.568 million / $2.272 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 142 tons, 2.1 %
Armour: 1,192 tons, 17.6 %
- Belts: 624 tons, 9.2 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 226 tons, 3.4 %
- Armour Deck: 317 tons, 4.7 %
- Conning Tower: 24 tons, 0.4 %
Machinery: 1,777 tons, 26.3 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 2,489 tons, 36.8 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,058 tons, 15.7 %
Miscellaneous weights: 100 tons, 1.5 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
6,519 lbs / 2,957 Kg = 60.8 x 6.0 " / 152 mm shells or 1.2 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.04
Metacentric height 2.2 ft / 0.7 m
Roll period: 15.5 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.59
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.05

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.520
Length to Beam Ratio: 8.45 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 21.58 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 62 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 67
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 20.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 34.45 ft / 10.50 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 24.61 ft / 7.50 m
- Mid (40 %): 16.40 ft / 5.00 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 16.40 ft / 5.00 m
- Stern: 16.40 ft / 5.00 m
- Average freeboard: 19.65 ft / 5.99 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 104.4 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 119.9 %
Waterplane Area: 17,426 Square feet or 1,619 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 113 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 87 lbs/sq ft or 423 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.83
- Longitudinal: 1.80
- Overall: 0.90
Caution: Hull subject to strain in open-sea
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform

100 tons mines

Russian Federation will also lay down six of the Moscow class Torpedo Cruisers, a deveopment of the Minsk class with a smaller main battery but heavier gun mount and conning tower armor:

Moskva class, Russian Torpedo Cruiser laid down 1930

Displacement:
2,474 t light; 2,555 t standard; 3,088 t normal; 3,513 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
513.37 ft / 492.13 ft x 41.83 ft x 13.12 ft (normal load)
156.47 m / 150.00 m x 12.75 m x 4.00 m

Armament:
4 - 5.12" / 130 mm guns (2x2 guns), 79.37lbs / 36.00kg shells, 1930 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
on centreline, all forward, 1 raised mount - superfiring
4 - 1.46" / 37.0 mm guns (1x4 guns), 1.55lbs / 0.70kg shells, 1930 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in a deck mount with hoist
on centreline aft
8 - 1.46" / 37.0 mm guns (4x2 guns), 1.55lbs / 0.70kg shells, 1930 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 336 lbs / 152 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 100
12 - 25.6" / 650 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 3.54" / 90 mm 0.20" / 5 mm -
2nd: 0.98" / 25 mm 0.20" / 5 mm -
3rd: 0.98" / 25 mm 0.20" / 5 mm -

- Conning tower: 3.54" / 90 mm

Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 2 shafts, 56,893 shp / 42,442 Kw = 36.00 kts
Range 8,750nm at 15.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 958 tons

Complement:
206 - 269

Cost:
£1.423 million / $5.692 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 36 tons, 1.2 %
Armour: 37 tons, 1.2 %
- Belts: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 21 tons, 0.7 %
- Armour Deck: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Conning Tower: 16 tons, 0.5 %
Machinery: 1,597 tons, 51.7 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 805 tons, 26.1 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 613 tons, 19.9 %
Miscellaneous weights: 0 tons, 0.0 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
789 lbs / 358 Kg = 11.8 x 5.1 " / 130 mm shells or 0.4 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.38
Metacentric height 2.4 ft / 0.7 m
Roll period: 11.4 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.25
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.00

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise forward of midbreak
and transom stern
Block coefficient: 0.400
Length to Beam Ratio: 11.76 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 25.33 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 60 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 70
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 30.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 6.56 ft / 2.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 25.43 ft / 7.75 m
- Forecastle (25 %): 18.86 ft / 5.75 m
- Mid (40 %): 18.86 ft / 5.75 m (11.32 ft / 3.45 m aft of break)
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 11.32 ft / 3.45 m
- Stern: 11.32 ft / 3.45 m
- Average freeboard: 14.99 ft / 4.57 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 175.8 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 64.8 %
Waterplane Area: 13,151 Square feet or 1,222 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 82 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 37 lbs/sq ft or 182 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.50
- Longitudinal: 0.74
- Overall: 0.52
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
Room for accommodation and workspaces is cramped
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform

Torpedos in four triple mounts on the centerline

11.76: 1 length to beam ratio, block-coefficient of .40, transom stern and a hull strength of .50? Isn't that kind of pushing things a bit?

I wouldn't be concerned about the Transom, as the gentlemans agreement allows its use in 1930 onward.

As for the BC its a wee bit too low for my taste.

I don't recall our HS rating for 3,000 ton ships...

HS for 3,000 tonners is still 0.5, because of the big destroyers and contre-torpilleurs. Above 3000 it goes to 0.75, then to 0.90.

The transom's certainly legal in any case, as the speed is above the 34 knots required under the pre-1930 timeframe.

The overall l:b is pretty narrow, at 12.272. I'd expect HOo to be all over this one.

She's a big destroyer, basically, as can be seen by the lack of any belt armor. I'd suggest giving her a bit more beam to bring the l:b down a bit, otherwise she's fine. Is Moskva[/i} intended for deployment in the Black Sea, or in the Baltic?

One of the problems with SS is the torpedoes. SS only takes account of the amount of deckspace that they take up, not the actual weight of of the torpedoes or their launchers. Whilst this doesn't matter quite so much with smaller torpedoes, these 650mm torpedoes weigh 4-5tons each. Thats ~50tons from the torpedoes alone. Then you have to factor in the weight of the launcher. Going from a breakdown of weights for Bolzano the weight of the launcher is about of the same weight as the torpedo. We scale this up to 650mm torpedoes and so the launchers+torpedoes weigh about 100tons in total.

As for those 130mm guns, making them QF, i.e. combined shell and cartridge would give a shell weighing about 50kg or more. Far too much for prolonged periods of hand loading. Then there is the turret armour. Whilst it might keep shells out (doubtful) it makes the turret considerably heavier, giving much slower training rates.