WesWorld

The government of France are considering laying down a new battlecruiser to replace the last of the Courbet class battleships still in service, with another in 1932 to replace the battleship Provence. They are intended for use in the Pacific Ocean, so are provided with a long range at high speed. They are intended to operate in conjunction with an aircraft carrier as force to delay a superior attacker by counterattacking quickly from unexpected directions, until larger forces from France and her allies can be assembled and transferred to the Pacific theater:

Paris class, French Battlecruiser laid down 1931

Displacement:
38,455 t light; 40,290 t standard; 45,096 t normal; 48,941 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
836.21 ft / 820.21 ft x 88.58 ft (Bulges 108.27 ft) x 32.32 ft (normal load)
254.88 m / 250.00 m x 27.00 m (Bulges 33.00 m) x 9.85 m

Armament:
6 - 15.00" / 381 mm guns (2x3 guns), 2,039.28lbs / 925.00kg shells, 1931 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, evenly spread
6 - 9.45" / 240 mm guns (2x3 guns), 551.16lbs / 250.00kg shells, 1931 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, evenly spread, all raised mounts
12 - 4.72" / 120 mm guns (6x2 guns), 52.72lbs / 23.91kg shells, 1931 Model
Dual purpose guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts
8 - 1.57" / 40.0 mm guns (2x4 guns), 1.95lbs / 0.88kg shells, 1931 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts with hoists
on centreline ends, evenly spread, all raised mounts
32 - 1.57" / 40.0 mm guns (8x4 guns), 1.95lbs / 0.89kg shells, 1931 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, evenly spread, 16 raised guns
Weight of broadside 16,253 lbs / 7,372 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 100

Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 11.8" / 300 mm 522.47 ft / 159.25 m 12.47 ft / 3.80 m
Ends: 1.18" / 30 mm 297.74 ft / 90.75 m 6.56 ft / 2.00 m
Main Belt covers 98 % of normal length

- Torpedo Bulkhead and Bulges:
0.79" / 20 mm 522.47 ft / 159.25 m 27.89 ft / 8.50 m

- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 13.8" / 350 mm 5.91" / 150 mm 11.0" / 280 mm
2nd: 13.8" / 350 mm 5.91" / 150 mm 11.0" / 280 mm
3rd: 0.98" / 25 mm 0.20" / 5 mm -
4th: 0.98" / 25 mm 0.20" / 5 mm -
5th: 0.98" / 25 mm 0.20" / 5 mm -

- Armour deck: 4.72" / 120 mm, Conning tower: 5.91" / 150 mm

Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 4 shafts, 217,734 shp / 162,429 Kw = 34.00 kts
Range 10,800nm at 18.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 8,652 tons

Complement:
1,546 - 2,011

Cost:
£15.975 million / $63.901 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 1,671 tons, 3.7 %
Armour: 11,647 tons, 25.8 %
- Belts: 3,327 tons, 7.4 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 424 tons, 0.9 %
- Armament: 3,120 tons, 6.9 %
- Armour Deck: 4,614 tons, 10.2 %
- Conning Tower: 161 tons, 0.4 %
Machinery: 6,511 tons, 14.4 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 18,527 tons, 41.1 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 6,641 tons, 14.7 %
Miscellaneous weights: 100 tons, 0.2 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
59,160 lbs / 26,835 Kg = 35.1 x 15.0 " / 381 mm shells or 7.5 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.08
Metacentric height 4.8 ft / 1.5 m
Roll period: 20.7 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.74
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.20

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise forward of midbreak
and transom stern
Block coefficient: 0.550
Length to Beam Ratio: 7.58 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 33.24 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 57 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 58
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 20.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 43.96 ft / 13.40 m
- Forecastle (30 %): 33.79 ft / 10.30 m
- Mid (50 %): 33.79 ft / 10.30 m (24.28 ft / 7.40 m aft of break)
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 24.28 ft / 7.40 m
- Stern: 27.89 ft / 8.50 m
- Average freeboard: 30.53 ft / 9.30 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 98.0 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 180.4 %
Waterplane Area: 52,790 Square feet or 4,904 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 118 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 209 lbs/sq ft or 1,021 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.94
- Longitudinal: 1.69
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

Main belt - 60mm external decapping plate, 240mm internal belt sloped @ 15 deg

MN France - Command Bridge

MN Lyon - 3 Seaplanes, 1 Catapult

Quoted

Armament:
6 - 15.00" / 381 mm guns (2x3 guns), 2,039.28lbs / 925.00kg shells, 1931 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, evenly spread
6 - 9.45" / 240 mm guns (2x3 guns), 551.16lbs / 250.00kg shells, 1931 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, evenly spread, all raised mounts

Um I dont know is this a good idea to have mixed mains.
Arent 8 or 9 330 or 350 better.
And this is one big ship.

The other suitable French gun is the 340mm, with a shell weight of 600kg. 9x340mm has about the same weight of shell as 6x381mm, but the 381mm has much better deck penetration than the 340mm.

Having a large number of guns also allows her to split fire, so if for instance she has to entertain two Samals or two Dairens, she can use 6x240mm to keep one occupied while destroying the other with 6x381mm.

The mixed main armament is an obvious question point. It could be used to engage a second target, but if it was engaging the same target as the mains, there would be a chance for confusion.

The maximum speed is outstanding, as is the behavior at speed.

Stability is marginal, IMO.

Isn't the name "France" already in use?

It should be Paris. Obviously a minor error of Admiral K's part when copying the additional info from the France sim.

the 15":

http://admkuznetsov.tripod.com/id123.html

the 9.45"
http://admkuznetsov.tripod.com/id170.html

So the smaller gun could be used to find the range, then the big guns fire for effect.

I'm thinking she'll have to hit hard quick, then flee, so steadiness might be more important to her than stability.

And yes, they're Paris and Lyon.

Nowhere near enough beam for triple 381mm turrets.

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Main belt - 60mm external decapping plate, 240mm internal belt sloped @ 15 deg

Aaarrgggh.

Some thoughts;

maximum speed of 34knts so in the ~8-10 hours of nightime you'll be able to cover up 340nm. What happens, french scouts spot enemy ship during the daytime, she sprints towards the last known position losing contact overnight. Even if the enemy ship is doing 10knts its still 100nm away from where you are and in what direction you don't know.

Why not go with Richelieu instead? Shes almost as fast but a lot more capable.

Those penetration figures given by biggun.exe are a bit optimistic, especially regarding the 240mm gun.

Quoted

Having a large number of guns also allows her to split fire, so if for instance she has to entertain two Samals or two Dairens, she can use 6x240mm to keep one occupied while destroying the other with 6x381mm.

Interesting plan.
Interesting carrier plane fodder as well. :-)
To be honest, I prefer a ship that is a bit slower with a bit more armor... but that's just me.

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Nowhere near enough beam for triple 381mm turrets.

Yes one reason why I altered Japan's next generation battleship. :-)
I was never satisfied with that 90 foot hull beam and the 38cm guns.

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Main belt - 60mm external decapping plate, 240mm internal belt sloped @ 15 deg

Aaarrgggh.

One reason why I did not stick a decapping plate on the next generation battleship with a 90 foot hull beam and 38cm guns.

Quoted

maximum speed of 34knts so in the ~8-10 hours of nightime you'll be able to cover up 340nm. What happens, french scouts spot enemy ship during the daytime, she sprints towards the last known position losing contact overnight. Even if the enemy ship is doing 10knts its still 100nm away from where you are and in what direction you don't know.

Probably the reason why the carrier is tagging along. The planes would be able to locate the target quickly... of course in bad weather, the carrier would not be of much use.

Quoted

Why not go with Richelieu instead? Shes almost as fast but a lot more capable.

Don't like her, but I have to agree...

Obviously, she'll not only need a location from scouts, but intelligence on enemy objectives, so she can show up when/where she's needed.

And a Richelieu is the other alternative being considered.

One of the futuristic Russian BB's of the 50's had 5 - 16" in two mounts forward, and 4 - 7.1" in a quad mount aft.
The idea was that the 7.1" guns would disable the less heavily armored fire control and other sensors while the 16" gave the killing blows.
Maybe the same logic could be applied here - main battery (15") for ship kill, secondary battery (9.45") for mission kill.

The problem with that is the lack of rapid-firing 180/200/240mm guns. I was planning on using 100mm guns myself...

Have a look through these designs

It looks like something I might design for Rohan in Navalism....in the 1900s or 1910s. (with 14 and 9 inch guns) Would radar control allow you to distingish the shells better?

Not in Rohan's case. :-)

Oh certainly not in Rohan's case in 1900, but would it help in the case of France in say 1940?

I have to say that Richelieu will be a better opition.
A Cleito limit Richelieu will propably by a better ship that RL Iowa.Wes world Richelieu can easy have 210mm instead of 155mm guns aft.
And Rooijen why do you have Richelieu so much it was agreat ship(althou with much of a history)It was last european battleship to take mart in a war.

The hull form - very deep draught, low (for a capital ship) block co-efficient, combined with the narrow beam already mentioned. Good for speed and seakeeping, certainly, but a hassle when looking for ports, places to repair (how many friendly class four drydocks are there in the Pacific?), or just operating in confined waters as may be necessary. Plus the 250 m length is a big target for torpedoes.

The freeboard seems unusually high, and I'm puzzled that the stern is higher than the quarterdeck.

The speed seems excessive. Only two SATSUMA capital ships have speeds above 31 knots, and they (the Japanese BCs) are considerably less powerful than these units. I don't think there are any AANM capital ships faster than 31 knots either.

This ship doesn't seem suited for its mission. You're not armored to take on capital ships, and the mission suggests you don't want to take on capital ships, but you're armed to do it anyway. It's vast overkill for a cruiser killer.

I think you'd be better off with a pair of 20,000 t cruiser killers, with 8 or 9 240mm guns. They can undertake the carrier escort and fast strike missions just as effectively, while avoiding the capital ships they should be avoiding anyway. Then they just have to hold out until the four France-type fast battleships show up.

Quoted

Originally posted by The Rock Doctor
I think you'd be better off with a pair of 20,000 t cruiser killers, with 8 or 9 240mm guns. They can undertake the carrier escort and fast strike missions just as effectively, while avoiding the capital ships they should be avoiding anyway. Then they just have to hold out until the four France-type fast battleships show up.

Thank You I told You all that 20000t cruiser killers are good invesment.


I never liked one hit wonders ship and some how I think that this ship may fall in that category.A balance fleet is allways better when You have resorces to bild it.And france Wesworld ceranly has that sort of resorces.

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Thank You I told You all that 20000t cruiser killers are good invesment.

Heh. Germany's pondering one or two ships in this size category as a stepping stone to being back in the capital ship business.

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And Rooijen why do you have Richelieu so much

Don't hate it, just don't like it. Don't like quads except for guns <60mm as they look too crowded in such a mount. Don't like the forward arrangement because it makes the ship look unballanced.
... and despite that, I still come up with a weird design like the Go ni which has a forward arrangement of the main guns.

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Good for speed and seakeeping, certainly, but a hassle when looking for ports, places to repair (how many friendly class four drydocks are there in the Pacific?)

Good question. I think that in the western part of the Pacific, only the Philippines and Japan have type 4 or bigger docks. In the mid and eastern part of the Pacific, only the US has such docks.

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The freeboard seems unusually high.

What do you expect if someone goes for a 34 knot ship and tries to squeeze a good seaboat rating out of it as well.

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The speed seems excessive. Only two SATSUMA capital ships have speeds above 31 knots, and they (the Japanese BCs) are considerably less powerful than these units. I don't think there are any AANM capital ships faster than 31 knots either.

I agree. And two of how many?
Okay... so the majority of those ships are either outdated or underarmored...
*Alters plans in order to start building the 32+ knot Yamatos in 1933*

To be honest, I thought about a few of such ships as well that as well... until I dragged the Mikasa out of retirement and started the construcion of the Chikan Chuui and the Hideyoshi Hashiba.