WesWorld

Gentlemen,

I was working on my input to the discussion on WesWorld2 when I noted there is a key element lost in our current rules. At least I cannot find it anymore.

We original had a rule about how ships age. It was stated that a ship is in need of a refit after 15 years. Otherwise it would loose 5% combat power ever other year. The idea behind that rule, when introduced right at the start of WesWorld, was to make a ship obsolete after 35 years if there is no maintenance.

Additionally there was a rule requiring a full modernization after 30 years or else loose 5%/year despite any refits. So after 50 years of refits only, a ship would be hopelessly outdated and worthless.

Original text of both rules can be found at the bottom of this post.

Those rules seem to have been lost either when we modified the modification rules (v1.6 to v1.7 of the rules) or at a later point in time when some copy&paste or editing took place. I cannot remember we had a discussion to remove the 15years rule deliberately - and given the behavior of the player base, all seem to think the rule if actually in effect.

So what happened? Am I just blind because I couldn't find it in our rules thread? If I am right - What to do?

Thanks,
HoOmAn

----------------------------Original text of the missing rules----------------------------

2.2.2 Refits:

Any ship ages. Its combat ability degrades and time and technology advances. For each year over 15 that a ship has not been refitted, it suffers a 5% penalty to its combat performance. Note that a ship may be refitted at any time, subject to any relevant naval treaty restrictions.

A refit involves the replacement of relatively small items such as wireless, secondary guns, radar, and fire control directors. General internal hull fittings such as bulkheads and bunks may also be replaced at this time. It does not affect the ship’s hull or its overall performance to any notable degree.

The cost for refitting a ship is equivalent to 25% of its build cost. The time it takes to refit is equal to that figure as well. If a battleship originally cost 40,000 tons of material to build, its refit cost would be 10,000 tons of material and the time required would be 12,5 months. A refit does not add to the value of the ship, it just refreshes its combat ability.

Once a ship is refitted, it is no longer subject to the combat penalties mentioned above.

2.2.3 Rebuilds

Although a refit does extend the career of a warship, she will need more extensive work after thirty years of service in order to remain effective. For each year over thirty that the ship has been in commission, she will suffer a 5% penalty to all aspects of her operation (combat, speed, damage control, etc) as parts simply wear out. Note that a ship may be rebuilt at any time, subject to the terms of relevant naval treaties. A rebuild will require that the ship be dry-docked.

It is easiest to state what may not be conducted during a rebuilding: addition/relocation of new barbettes.

What is allowed includes removal of barbettes (for replacement with anti-aircraft guns, etc), replacement of coal-fired boilers with oil-fired boilers, installing new engines, replacing the superstructure, reshaping the bow, adding torpedo defense blisters, removing or adding any secondary guns, or replacing heavy guns in barbettes (such as that done by Japan when she converted Mogami to a heavy cruiser). Regardless of what does take place, the ship’s weight may not be increased by more than 20%.

To determine the time and materials required to rebuild the ship, calculate the ship’s light displacement after the rebuilding is completed. The cost in time and materials will be half of that required to build the ship from scratch. Note that rebuilding a ship will also take care of problems resulting from overdue refits.

Once rebuilt, the ship is essentially new again; she will not require a refit for 15 years, nor rebuilding for another 30.

Quoted

Originally posted by HoOmAn
Gentlemen,

I was working on my input to the discussion on WesWorld2 when I noted there is a key element lost in our current rules. At least I cannot find it anymore.

We original had a rule about how ships age. It was stated that a ship is in need of a refit after 15 years. Otherwise it would loose 5% combat power ever other year. The idea behind that rule, when introduced right at the start of WesWorld, was to make a ship obsolete after 35 years if there is no maintenance.

Additionally there was a rule requiring a full modernization after 30 years or else loose 5%/year despite any refits. So after 50 years of refits only, a ship would be hopelessly outdated and worthless.

Original text of both rules can be found at the bottom of this post.

Those rules seem to have been lost either when we modified the modification rules (v1.6 to v1.7 of the rules) or at a later point in time when some copy&paste or editing took place. I cannot remember we had a discussion to remove the 15years rule deliberately - and given the behavior of the player base, all seem to think the rule if actually in effect.

So what happened? Am I just blind because I couldn't find it in our rules thread? If I am right - What to do?

Thanks,
HoOmAn

We discussed this rule in some detail a year or two ago and determined not to put it back in the rules. Let me search back and find the discussion.

We discussed back in November of 2010 in the moderator folder. It doesn't appear that we had a conclusive result from our discussions, but we probably finished the discussion on IRC. I know ShinRa and I have discussed this issue at least once since then, and my impression (and my understanding of everyone else's opinion) was that the rule was not going to be re-introduced, but retained as a sort of "gentleman's agreement" and nothing more.

Well, this is an issue to me. The 15-years-rule was a basic concept to justify at least a low level of maintenance.

Found the thread you referred to and to me it seems we were conclusive some error must have happened. Back then I already wanted those rules back. And I do so today, altered only to fit our current modification rules.

(Shame on me I forgot about us dealing with it already, but 2 years are a long time....)

For all non-admins with no access to the thread Brock was reffering to - I can offer archive files for all versions of our rules, so tracking down modifications is possible. It requires some work, though.

Are there any other rules that are "missing"? That is, they had been there in the past and have disappeared without being target of an official rules modification.

If it has been two years since the discovery of the loss of the rules due to editing, and we have not really found the need to revive it in the interim, I do not thing we need to revive it now.

This was something I noticed and discussed, I think when updating Thailand. As I recall I was informed it had been dropped during an update to the rules.

I didn't recall there being a discussion, but since my participation varies from full blown, to partial, to barely, I miss things.

I *had* been refitting the Dutch fleet to meet the 15 year rule. I still have that intention, but in large part because I agree with Hoo and because AA/Radar/FC suites are badly out of date on ships last built/refitted in 1927. Indeed, I went so far as a minor refit on the Utrechts just to get their AA up to date for the 1940-42 period the Dutch feared war in. My scribblings on potential long term fleet tonnages include 25% refits in the calcs.

Considering boilers wear out, corrosion eats hulls, etc etc. 15 years is very reasonable. Heck, I've read something to the effect that period subs wear out after 12 because seals start to fail, parts are stressed, etc.

So, if there was never a vote to take it out, and it was in for most of the SIM, it should be in...or at the very least there should be a vote.

Quoted

Originally posted by Kaiser Kirk
So, if there was never a vote to take it out, and it was in for most of the SIM, it should be in...or at the very least there should be a vote.

There's been no rule to this effect since the rule-set was updated from 1.6 to 1.7. We're on version 2.3 now, and if I recall correctly, we were at 2.0 back in 2007 when I joined up. So, in short, this rule's been missing from the official rules document for at least five years and probably longer.

In my personal opinion, we all know from common sense that unrefitted ships above a certain age are getting along in years and not as efficient as they once were. We don't need a rule to tell us to refit our ships.

I seem to recall, considering any percentage values assigned to a ship are arbitrary and have no bearing on the gameplay mechanics (which are soley industrial in nature), and combat and all player interaction is scripted, that the rule was superflous, and best relegated to players to decide when and how often to refit and maintain their ships.

Gentlemen,

Is there any thread/post you can link me to where it was officially decided to take the rules about how ships age off the list of our rules?

Thanks,
HoOmAn

Yes.

Link to Page One and Page Two.

Quoted

Originally posted by thesmilingassassin
I'm at a loss as to when/why the rules disappeared but IMO the newer refit/rebuild rules take care of the issue. Two things IMO force us to refit/rebuild/repair ships. Material condition and fighting ability. Both deteriorate over time and in the case of fighting capability a refit can instantly renew the ships worth. Without that refit fighting capability's decrease as newer more efficient weapons are introduced.

One could theoritically let a ship deteriorate for 10 years and perform a refit/rebuild (under our rules) that would not only renew the ships material condition but improve its fighting condition.

Quoted

Originally posted by ShinRa_Inc
I would propose, at the very least, the old rule be somewhat followed as a "Gentleman's Rule". If a ship hasn't been drydocked for a decent overhaul in 15 years, it's not going to perform to the best of it's ability; It won't be able to work up it's rated speed due to the engines being worn down and the hull no longer having that slick, fresh-from-the-yards finish. It may be more susceptible to damage due to untreated structual strains, crews may not perform to par due to fatigue and general discontent with using 15 year old plumbing on a daily basis, et cetera, et cetera.

Exactly how this is followed, would be (as always) up to the individual writers of any combat (or other relevant) scenarios. And the 15 year mark is meant as a guidepost, not a hard break; a 14.99 year old ship is not still factory fresh one day, and a dilapidated wreck the next.

Quoted

Originally posted by HoOmAn
Yeah, indead. In the absence of a combat system, it´s finally up to the writers to accept or take care of the degree a ship is no longer effective as a combatant.

Quoted

Originally posted by ShinRa_Inc
I think a consensus has been reached regarding the following;

Quoted

Originally posted by ShinRa_Inc
I would propose, at the very least, the old rule be somewhat followed as a "Gentleman's Rule". If a ship hasn't been drydocked for a decent overhaul in 15 years, it's not going to perform to the best of it's ability; It won't be able to work up it's rated speed due to the engines being worn down and the hull no longer having that slick, fresh-from-the-yards finish. It may be more susceptible to damage due to untreated structual strains, crews may not perform to par due to fatigue and general discontent with using 15 year old plumbing on a daily basis, et cetera, et cetera.

Exactly how this is followed, would be (as always) up to the individual writers of any combat (or other relevant) scenarios. And the 15 year mark is meant as a guidepost, not a hard break; a 14.99 year old ship is not still factory fresh one day, and a dilapidated wreck the next.

Given it's a Gentleman's rule / guideline, it's hard to integrate into the written rules, but we'll figure out something.

Quoted

Originally posted by Kaiser Kirk
That is fine as well. Just wanted to confirm the old breakpoints were 15 and 30 since I had them.

Well reading through things, I see I decided to just go on refitting, which is what I've pretty much done, and explains why I didn't bother remembering much of this

Pretty much. I've started doing refits along these lines myself, just not in an obsessive-compulsive way. (I.E., if it gets refitted, yay; if not refitted, whatever.)

I've always adhered to the original concept of regular refits of ships getting to 15 years, partly because I probably still have that old rule version in my Word files, and partly becuase its common sense anyway ship's that old totally unrefitted are going to be ropey to say the least.

Actually I now gotten to the point where everything older than 20-25 years is to be retired. You'll see the last few Great War RN ships slipping away very soon (unless they have been rebuilt or are filling a niche role until new stuff arrives).

Quoted

Originally posted by Hood
Actually I now gotten to the point where everything older than 20-25 years is to be retired. You'll see the last few Great War RN ships slipping away very soon (unless they have been rebuilt or are filling a niche role until new stuff arrives).

The Dutch expect to start retiring ships as they trim their fleet now that the SATSUMA threat seems to have waned, but the only way to field the hulls needed for thier commitments is to keep older ships, so 30 will probably be their final.

Thank you guys. I read from all this the "aging rules" should not be reintroduced to the standard rules, but they should be kept as Gentlemen's Rules. Thus I will add them so they do not "disappear" again.