WesWorld

Here's a question I'd like to throw out here for discussion.

Currently, we have the following rule regarding radar:

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2.2.2.2 Level 2: Minor Refits (cost = 15%, except for ships of 2,999 t light or less --> 5%)

-Changes to radar: P

As phrased, this seems to me to state that any change to radar whatsoever is automatically a 15% job. For installing a radar on a ship which previously doesn't have radar, or any facilities necessary for arranging it, this rule seems to be right and proper. I think the same would apply for many other sorts of radar changes (which would alter electrical grids or aerials or masts or such).

However, my research implies that many of the period radars saw many small generational upgrades. An example seems to be the shift from CXAM to SG or SK, which appears to largely be a function of switching out terminals - apparently even leaving the previous set's antennas, power supplies, and wiring runs. That sort of work hardly seems to merit a 15% refit just to replace a few components in a job that a competent work-gang could accomplish in a few days or even hours.

For instance, let me make an example. Chile has the Constitucion, which carries several different Atlantean-designed radars according to a development timeline Wes and I worked out. The current radar suite, however, is already a generation down, with the new 2nd-Generation set being an improvement in reliability, maintenance, and such. Would it seriously cost me 2,843 tons to run a 15% refit to replace a few terminals that weigh less than 2,500 pounds?

I admit I'm not entirely an expert on radar systems, but it just feels to me that "Changes to Radar = 15%" seems to be rather stiff in its (lack of) definition, so I'd appreciate it if someone could shed some enlightenment on the issue.

I know there's at least one of the US Battleships that had a new radar installed, but retained the older (and larger) CXAM antennae, but I'm blanking on which one it was.

To me it seems you are preparing a rule change, expecting different levels of modifications with different costs.

While probably right from a realism point of view - how to keep that simple? And what will be next? You will need levels for every modification. For example the costs for changes to the superstructure are also fixed - whether you apply a simple balcony to the bridge or an entire new pagoda.

So yes, 15% may be a lot for just changing an antenna, but it keeps the rule as simple as possible.

I agree with Brock, its always been a query I've had.
Sure 15% makes sense when installing radar from scratch as you'd need various structural as well as electronic changes.

I think a 5% refit for "modifications to existing radar systems" would be good.

That seems simple enough to me.

Sonar replacement should remain unchanged as often you need hull changes for the domes etc.

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5% refit for "modifications to existing radar systems"

seems reasonable, as long as the key word "Existing" is maintained. Any change to a different type of RADAR not just an upgrade of the current type, should still be a 15% job.

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Originally posted by HoOmAn
To me it seems you are preparing a rule change, expecting different levels of modifications with different costs.

Not exactly - I'm seeking clarification on what the rule actually covers, since it's extremely vague and general.

I don't want to constantly bring up rules change ideas, but it's a question that's nagged at me for a long time, and I'd like more clarification on what it entails so that I can, if necessary, plan refits accordingly.

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Originally posted by HoOmAn
While probably right from a realism point of view - how to keep that simple? And what will be next? You will need levels for every modification. For example the costs for changes to the superstructure are also fixed - whether you apply a simple balcony to the bridge or an entire new pagoda.

So yes, 15% may be a lot for just changing an antenna, but it keeps the rule as simple as possible.

At the risk of pushing this too far - we already have levels for other sorts of modifications listed in the refit rules. For instance, "Alterations to guns of 65mm and smaller not served by hoists" is a 5% refit, whereas the significantly more complicated "Alterations to guns of 66mm-195mm involving barbette alterations" requires a 50% refit. And in the case of superstructure changes, I'd like to point out that there's multiple levels of refits for that as well: 15% for "Minor changes to superstructure (i.e. enclosing a bridge, adding a searchlight platform)", 25% refit for "Changes to superstructure", and 50% refit for "Replacement of superstructure".

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Originally posted by Sachmle

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5% refit for "modifications to existing radar systems"

seems reasonable, as long as the key word "Existing" is maintained. Any change to a different type of RADAR not just an upgrade of the current type, should still be a 15% job.

Doesn´t this open a loophole?

A player could introduce a radar set called "Farseeing Eye Mk I", then Mk II, Mk III, Mk IV..... And it´s always the same _existing_ radar, just upgraded versions. Of course in a different text you will then read more details of the sets and their capabilities - which remarkably grow with each version of course.

I'm getting this impression here that the 15% would only be needed for different types of radar; e.g., fire control, surface search, air search, etc. Modifications to already existing types of radar, e.g., going from surface search Mark 1 to surface search Mark 2 would be a 5%, but adding an air search radar to a ship with an existing surface search radar would be a 15%.

Stephen, there will always be loopholes in every rule. That's why we let Fox play, so he can find them for us.

Perhaps something like:

5% refit for "modernization of existing radar that does not include an increase in size of unit"

It appears from what research I've done so far that many of the intermediate upgrades were handled basically as a matter of general shipboard maintenance, not "refits" per say. For example, an antenna stops working because it's rusted, and gets replaced by a new one.

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Originally posted by Sachmle
Perhaps something like:

5% refit for "modernization of existing radar that does not include an increase in size of unit"

Perhaps...

Hm. Perhaps in response to Hoo's point, I could offer an alternative suggestion. If the ship's been completed or refitted in the last five years, then it's a 5% refit; if the ship's not been refitted or completed in the last five years, it's a 15% refit; if the ship has no radar at all, it's a 15% refit to add it. Or something like that.

Maybe this;

5% refit for an upgrade of an existing set
5% for just an antenna replacement
15% for any new sets (eg adding an air-search set or a totally new radar model)
15% for any radar modification if the original set is over 5 years old (again open to abuse if you change radars every 4.5 years)

IMHO air search sets tend to be bigger with larger arrays and so need more mast changes or new masts etc to accomodate them.
Surface search and gunnery sets tend to get smaller with centimetric sets and through further development. Air search tends to always need a massive array.

So we could say;
5% for any mods or new radars after the intial fit (which is still 15%) for any surface or gunnery search set
15% for any mods or new radars for any air search set

Just a couple of options...

Lots of options, yes.... And you are about to see me lost. I´m an old man, you know.

Seriously, too many options is no good for me. Something like could be supported: "If there has been no radar onboard before, 15% for new fits on existing vessels, no matter how old (e.g. when thinking about modifications of old ships) If there already has been a radar aboard, 5% for modifications of all kind."

When you build new vessels that include radar from the start, the costs are cover with the building costs anyway, right?

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Originally posted by HoOmAn
When you build new vessels that include radar from the start, the costs are cover with the building costs anyway, right?

That's what I've assumed, same with other miscellaneous weights (FC Directors, air conditioning, galley equipment, etc, etc)

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Originally posted by HoOmAn
Something like could be supported: "If there has been no radar onboard before, 15% for new fits on existing vessels, no matter how old (e.g. when thinking about modifications of old ships) If there already has been a radar aboard, 5% for modifications of all kind."

I think that would be tenable and realistic.

In other words:

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2.2.2.1 Level 1: Manual Refits (Cost = 5%)
-Changes to existing radar: T

2.2.2.2 Level 2: Minor Refits (cost = 15%, except for ships of 2,999 t light or less --> 5%)
-Addition of radar to unequipped vessel: P

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Originally posted by Brockpaine

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Originally posted by HoOmAn
Something like could be supported: "If there has been no radar onboard before, 15% for new fits on existing vessels, no matter how old (e.g. when thinking about modifications of old ships) If there already has been a radar aboard, 5% for modifications of all kind."

I think that would be tenable and realistic.

In other words:

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2.2.2.1 Level 1: Manual Refits (Cost = 5%)
-Changes to existing radar: T




2.2.2.2 Level 2: Minor Refits (cost = 15%, except for ships of 2,999 t light or less --> 5%)
-Addition of radar to unequipped vessel: P

This causes me to ask the question, when is it determined that a vessel is completed with a radar?

For example, my predecessor had designed the Karlsruhe class cruisers, noted here

They have tonnage reserved for installation of radar; would it be proper to presume that they were completed with their initial radar suite - which Germany has the means to do? Or should the installation be declared at some point? Or despite the reservation of tonnage, ought the actual installation be declared some sort of refit?

As I do not know what my predecessor intended, some suggestions or guidance on how to answer these questions would be appreciated.

Personally, unless I install something I provide reserve tonnage as just that, reserve tonnage rather than stating x amount reserved for radar. Unless 1 ship of the class is acctually built with the radar installed andthe others are not simply because at the time there were not enough sets to be installed.

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Originally posted by thesmilingassassin
Personally, unless I install something I provide reserve tonnage as just that, reserve tonnage rather than stating x amount reserved for radar. Unless 1 ship of the class is acctually built with the radar installed andthe others are not simply because at the time there were not enough sets to be installed.

Conversely, I'd see a potential interpretation as:

- The miscellaneous weight is reserved for radar, but not added at completion.
- The miscellaneous weight reserved is therefore subtracted from the light tonnage during construction.
- The miscellaneous weight thus subtracted is added when the radar is ready.

Problem is most ships built with reserve tonnage usually DO have that weight included in the build cost, at least I have anyway. I haven't subtracted any reserve misc weight from my ships light tonnage.

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Originally posted by thesmilingassassin
Personally, unless I install something I provide reserve tonnage as just that, reserve tonnage rather than stating x amount reserved for radar. Unless 1 ship of the class is acctually built with the radar installed andthe others are not simply because at the time there were not enough sets to be installed.

Not having enough sets by the time a ship is comissioned/completed seems to be more of a storyline issue, rather than game mechanics. If you have a storyline where the ship is technically comissioned without Radar, but it's installed six months later (and the sim used to build the ship accomodates the radar), I see no reason to penalize a good story by requiring an actual game-mechanics refit to install something the sim says is already installed.

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Originally posted by thesmilingassassin
Problem is most ships built with reserve tonnage usually DO have that weight included in the build cost, at least I have anyway. I haven't subtracted any reserve misc weight from my ships light tonnage.

The only instance I'm aware of where you pay less than the light tonnage of a sim, is where reused turrets are involved. Nothing else is covered by the rules.

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Originally posted by thesmilingassassin
Problem is most ships built with reserve tonnage usually DO have that weight included in the build cost, at least I have anyway. I haven't subtracted any reserve misc weight from my ships light tonnage.

In which case, they'd have the radar installed, IMHO.