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1

Sunday, October 28th 2012, 2:52am

Sailing Sloop Design Competition

Although I know I've asked and received some input on this subject before, it's an area I'm still uncomfortable with.

So:

Anybody want to propose a design for a Peruvian sailing sloop, to be used for general purpose training/tall ship race/show the flag jobs?

I've set aside 400 t for the project, but could tack on more if required.

2

Sunday, October 28th 2012, 3:18am

OOH! YES! PICK ME, PICK ME!

*Runs off to dig up all his potential ship designs.*

3

Sunday, October 28th 2012, 3:23am

The Irish Shipbuilding Company proposes this design. Two vessels of this design have already been constructed (one for Australia and one for Canada), so the design has demonstrable performance qualities. It is, admittedly, a larger vessel than specified, but would adequately meet all of the requirements.

Quoted

[SIZE=3]Sir John Sherbrooke and Southern Cross, Commonwealth Sail Training Ships laid down 1940 and 1941[/SIZE]

Displacement:
680 t light; 706 t standard; 1,265 t normal; 1,712 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
224.37 ft / 205.05 ft x 31.82 ft x 15.42 ft (normal load)
68.39 m / 62.50 m x 9.70 m x 4.70 m

Armament:
1 - 2.24" / 57.0 mm guns in single mounts, 6.00lbs / 2.72kg shells, 1940 Model
Quick firing gun in deck mount
on centreline forward
Weight of broadside 6 lbs / 3 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 100

Machinery:
Diesel Internal combustion motors,
Geared drive, 1 shaft, 1,207 shp / 900 Kw = 13.50 kts
Range 20,000nm at 13.50 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 1,006 tons

Complement:
105 - 137

Cost:
£0.174 million / $0.694 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 1 tons, 0.1 %
Machinery: 32 tons, 2.6 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 347 tons, 27.4 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 585 tons, 46.2 %
Miscellaneous weights: 300 tons, 23.7 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
3,767 lbs / 1,709 Kg = 666.7 x 2.2 " / 57 mm shells or 2.2 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.10
Metacentric height 1.1 ft / 0.3 m
Roll period: 12.9 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 66 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.01
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 2.00

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has raised forecastle, raised quarterdeck
Block coefficient: 0.440
Length to Beam Ratio: 6.44 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 14.32 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 41 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 33
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 30.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 9.84 ft / 3.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 16.40 ft / 5.00 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 15.09 ft / 4.60 m (11.48 ft / 3.50 m aft of break)
- Mid (50 %): 11.81 ft / 3.60 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 15.09 ft / 4.60 m (11.81 ft / 3.60 m before break)
- Stern: 15.75 ft / 4.80 m
- Average freeboard: 13.06 ft / 3.98 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 35.9 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 83.6 %
Waterplane Area: 3,928 Square feet or 365 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 342 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 41 lbs/sq ft or 202 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.84
- Longitudinal: 5.51
- Overall: 1.01
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
Room for accommodation and workspaces is cramped
Excellent seaboat, comfortable, can fire her guns in the heaviest weather

Notes:
Overall length 240 feet including bowspirit
57mm gun is British 6-pounder AT gun used for saluting.

Range is actually 800nm at 13.50 kts - Bunker at max displacement = 51 tons
955 tons of ballast/cargo/facilities simmed as fuel

4

Sunday, October 28th 2012, 3:32am

ASMAR Chile proposes the following design. (Unlike the Irish, ASMAR's not recently built a sail training ship, nor one this small, but they have rebuilt the Esmeralda and put some thought into it.)

Quoted

[SIZE=3]Conquistador class, Peruvian Sail Training Brig laid down 1943[/SIZE]

Displacement:
400 t light; 413 t standard; 609 t normal; 765 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
170.79 ft / 160.76 ft x 25.75 ft x 9.19 ft (normal load)
52.06 m / 49.00 m x 7.85 m x 2.80 m

Armament:
1 - 2.24" / 57.0 mm guns in single mounts, 5.65lbs / 2.56kg shells, 1943 Model
Quick firing gun in deck mount
on centreline forward
2 - 0.79" / 20.0 mm guns in single mounts, 0.24lbs / 0.11kg shells, 1943 Model
Machine guns in deck mounts
on centreline, all aft
Weight of broadside 6 lbs / 3 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 150

Machinery:
Diesel Internal combustion motors,
Geared drive, 1 shaft, 994 shp / 741 Kw = 14.00 kts
Range 9,000nm at 14.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 352 tons

Complement:
60 - 79

Cost:
£0.119 million / $0.478 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 1 tons, 0.1 %
Machinery: 26 tons, 4.2 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 234 tons, 38.5 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 208 tons, 34.2 %
Miscellaneous weights: 140 tons, 23.0 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
1,789 lbs / 811 Kg = 316.6 x 2.2 " / 57 mm shells or 1.4 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.09
Metacentric height 0.8 ft / 0.2 m
Roll period: 12.3 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.01
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 2.00

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has raised forecastle
Block coefficient: 0.560
Length to Beam Ratio: 6.24 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 12.68 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 54 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 35
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 10.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 6.56 ft / 2.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 19.69 ft / 6.00 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 18.04 ft / 5.50 m (10.17 ft / 3.10 m aft of break)
- Mid (50 %): 9.51 ft / 2.90 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 10.17 ft / 3.10 m
- Stern: 10.83 ft / 3.30 m
- Average freeboard: 11.71 ft / 3.57 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 41.0 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 88.5 %
Waterplane Area: 2,834 Square feet or 263 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 308 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 41 lbs/sq ft or 200 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 1.09
- Longitudinal: 8.01
- Overall: 1.33
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
Room for accommodation and workspaces is cramped
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Excellent seaboat, comfortable, can fire her guns in the heaviest weather

Notes:
Overall length 58m including bowspirit
57mm gun is British 6-pounder AT gun used for saluting.

Range is actually 1,500nm at 14.00 kts - Bunker at max displacement = 63 tons
289 tons of ballast/cargo/facilities simmed as fuel

5

Sunday, October 28th 2012, 3:53am

Bulgaria offers the following design based on the highly successful small barques (the UK's British Steel and Yugoslavia's Pelikan) which have repeatedly won the Class A Division II Tall Ships Race.

Quoted

[SIZE=3]STS43, Peruvian Sail Training Ship laid down 1943[/SIZE]

Displacement:
300 t light; 309 t standard; 415 t normal; 500 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
162.16 ft / 147.64 ft x 24.61 ft x 8.20 ft (normal load)
49.42 m / 45.00 m x 7.50 m x 2.50 m

Armament:
1 - 2.24" / 57.0 mm guns in single mounts, 5.65lbs / 2.56kg shells, 1943 Model
Quick firing gun in deck mount
on centreline forward
Weight of broadside 6 lbs / 3 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 150

Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, complex reciprocating steam engines,
Geared drive, 1 shaft, 433 ihp / 323 Kw = 12.00 kts
Range 7,500nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 191 tons

Complement:
45 - 59

Cost:
£0.094 million / $0.377 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 1 tons, 0.2 %
Machinery: 24 tons, 5.7 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 176 tons, 42.3 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 115 tons, 27.7 %
Miscellaneous weights: 100 tons, 24.1 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
1,205 lbs / 547 Kg = 213.3 x 2.2 " / 57 mm shells or 1.1 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.08
Metacentric height 0.7 ft / 0.2 m
Roll period: 12.3 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.02
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 2.00

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.487
Length to Beam Ratio: 6.00 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 12.15 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 46 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 35
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 30.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 6.56 ft / 2.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 13.78 ft / 4.20 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 11.81 ft / 3.60 m
- Mid (50 %): 9.84 ft / 3.00 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 10.17 ft / 3.10 m
- Stern: 10.83 ft / 3.30 m
- Average freeboard: 10.84 ft / 3.31 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 47.2 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 100.9 %
Waterplane Area: 2,295 Square feet or 213 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 271 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 38 lbs/sq ft or 185 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 1.05
- Longitudinal: 8.39
- Overall: 1.29
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Excellent seaboat, comfortable, can fire her guns in the heaviest weather

Notes:
Overall length 49m including bowspirit
57mm gun is British 6-pounder AT gun used for saluting.

Range is actually 1,500nm at 12.00 kts - Bunker at max displacement = 41 tons
150 tons of ballast/cargo/facilities simmed as fuel

6

Sunday, October 28th 2012, 3:55am

Bulgaria can additionally offer a much larger vessel based upon their own tall ship, the Balgarski Lav:

Quoted

[SIZE=3]Balgarski Lav, Bulgarian Clipper laid down 1938[/SIZE]

Displacement:
971 t light; 1,005 t standard; 1,470 t normal; 1,843 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
278.46 ft / 250.00 ft x 34.50 ft x 15.70 ft (normal load)
84.87 m / 76.20 m x 10.52 m x 4.79 m
Length with bowsprit: 300 feet

Armament:
1 - 3.46" / 88.0 mm guns in single mounts, 20.79lbs / 9.43kg shells, 1939 Model
Anti-aircraft gun in deck mount
on centreline forward
2 - 1.57" / 40.0 mm guns in single mounts, 1.95lbs / 0.89kg shells, 1939 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, all amidships
4 - 0.79" / 20.0 mm guns in single mounts, 0.24lbs / 0.11kg shells, 1939 Model
Machine guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 26 lbs / 12 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 250

Machinery:
Diesel Internal combustion motors,
Geared drive, 1 shaft, 1,835 shp / 1,369 Kw = 15.00 kts
Range 12,000nm at 15.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 838 tons

Sails:
Square-rigged ship; 3 masts
2200 m² of canvas
17-18 knots at maximum sailing performance

Complement:
118 - 154

Cost:
£0.254 million / $1.016 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 3 tons, 0.2 %
Machinery: 50 tons, 3.4 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 718 tons, 48.9 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 499 tons, 33.9 %
Miscellaneous weights: 200 tons, 13.6 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
5,795 lbs / 2,629 Kg = 278.7 x 3.5 " / 88 mm shells or 3.1 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.14
Metacentric height 1.3 ft / 0.4 m
Roll period: 12.8 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 50 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.02
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 2.00

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has raised forecastle, raised quarterdeck
Block coefficient: 0.380
Length to Beam Ratio: 7.25 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 15.81 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 37 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 25
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 40.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 10.00 ft / 3.05 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 22.00 ft / 6.71 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 19.00 ft / 5.79 m (12.00 ft / 3.66 m aft of break)
- Mid (50 %): 12.00 ft / 3.66 m
- Quarterdeck (35 %): 19.00 ft / 5.79 m (12.00 ft / 3.66 m before break)
- Stern: 19.00 ft / 5.79 m
- Average freeboard: 16.09 ft / 4.90 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 29.2 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 96.1 %
Waterplane Area: 4,962 Square feet or 461 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 452 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 61 lbs/sq ft or 300 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 1.17
- Longitudinal: 9.70
- Overall: 1.44
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate
Excellent seaboat, comfortable, can fire her guns in the heaviest weather

Breakdown of Miscellaneous Weights:
- 200 tons for masts and sails

Notes:
- Armament for training and self-defense purposes only.
- Ballast partially simmed as fuel. Actual engine range is 2,000 nm at 15 knots
- The Bylgarski Lav is owned jointly by the the Bulgarian Navy and by the Navigation Maritime Bulgare (for the Bulgarian Merchant Marine). The Bylgarski Lav was partly paid for (10%) by the former Tsar of Bulgaria, Tsar Ferdinand, as a gift to the Navy and the country.
- The weapons are put aboard for training and self-defense purposes.

7

Sunday, October 28th 2012, 3:58am

France does not presently have any sail-training ships in the right size category (the two Belle Poules are over 2,000 tons), but they will offer the design for their sail-training yawls... which are much smaller...

Quoted

[SIZE=3]Barracuda-class Yawl[/SIZE]
Length overall: 15.5 m / 51 ft incl spars
Length deck: 14.3 m / 46 ft 10 in
Length waterline: 9.76 m / 32 ft
Beam: 3.6 m / 11 ft 10 in
Draft: 2.06 m / 6 ft 8 in
Displacement: 14 tons
Vessels in Class: Barracuda, Malice, Mutine

8

Sunday, October 28th 2012, 4:06am

An addendum to all of the above: although I did not post breakdowns of the miscellaneous weight, you should presume about 10% of the ship's weight (simmed as miscellaneous weight) is used to account for the masts, spars, and sail suit.

There will be some fudge back and forth on the rigging, as that will change during the ship's lifetime, as different captains assess the vessel's sailing qualities.

Per a lot of previous discussion about designing sailing ships, I design mine (and probably 90% or more of the sail-training ships simmed in Wesworld are my designs) with engines and large fuel reserves. Much of the fuel reserves represent the traditional down-low ballast that is necessary to keep sailing vessels working right-side up. :)

9

Sunday, October 28th 2012, 4:13am

Thanks for those. I'll see if anybody else wants to contribute sometihng and then see what I want to do.

The yawls are an interesting idea, though. I could see value in picking up a couple to complement the larger vessel.

(FYI - I've slotted in a domestic build in the Q1/43 sim report, but will change/remove it as circumstances require...)

10

Sunday, October 28th 2012, 4:54am

For what it's worth, none of the countries I run will charge construction fees for a sail-training ship.

11

Monday, October 29th 2012, 5:54am

Quoted

Originally posted by The Rock Doctor
The yawls are an interesting idea, though. I could see value in picking up a couple to complement the larger vessel.

I've used mine primarily as training craft for the naval academies. The French have the three Barracuda class posted above for use at the Ecole Navale, while the Chilean Escuela Navale has three American-built Luders 44 Yawls. (Chile also has three more Luders 44s in service with naval-associated organizations.) Obviously they're small and short-ranged, but they still add a practical element to any officer training program.

Quoted

Originally posted by The Rock Doctor
(FYI - I've slotted in a domestic build in the Q1/43 sim report, but will change/remove it as circumstances require...)

Addendum to my comment above: if you want to stick with a local build, ASMAR is willing to license the design in exchange for brightly-colored ponchos and reciprocal tall ship visits between Peru and Chile. (Obviously after your vessel is completed, of course.)

12

Wednesday, November 7th 2012, 2:35am

Peru's going to proposition Bulgaria for plans and technical assistance in building (domestically) one of the 300 t barques.

They'll also order two of the little yawls from France - not an issue if those are produced in France and transported over.

13

Wednesday, November 7th 2012, 2:50am

That will be excellent. What quarter will these transactions take place? (I ask since I'd need to modify my posted sim reports if it's in Q1.)

14

Wednesday, November 7th 2012, 3:22am

Peru wants to build the barque itself, if that wasn't clear.

The yawls can wait until Q2, so no need to edit that sim.

15

Wednesday, November 7th 2012, 4:52am

Quoted

Originally posted by The Rock Doctor
Peru wants to build the barque itself, if that wasn't clear.

It was, and that's fine.

Quoted

Originally posted by The Rock Doctor
The yawls can wait until Q2, so no need to edit that sim.

Okiedokie - so 28 tons in Q2. Righto.

16

Wednesday, November 7th 2012, 5:04am

Groovy - thanks.