WesWorld

I can't make up my mind as to which of these designs to go with as a follow-on to the HEL class CA's, whether to go for an 8, 10 or 12 gun design.

I'm leaning towards D, but I would appreciate your thoughts please!

Valkyre C, Denmark CA laid down 1928

Displacement:
10,147 t light; 10,646 t standard; 11,703 t normal; 12,549 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
658.86 ft / 640.00 ft x 62.00 ft x 20.00 ft (normal load)
200.82 m / 195.07 m x 18.90 m x 6.10 m

Armament:
8 - 8.27" / 210 mm guns (4x2 guns), 282.57lbs / 128.17kg shells, 1928 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
12 - 4.72" / 120 mm guns (6x2 guns), 52.72lbs / 23.91kg shells, 1928 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on side, all amidships, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
16 - 2.24" / 57.0 mm guns (8x2 guns), 5.65lbs / 2.56kg shells, 1928 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, 4 raised mounts
24 - 0.79" / 20.0 mm guns (12x2 guns), 0.24lbs / 0.11kg shells, 1928 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
Weight of broadside 2,989 lbs / 1,356 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 150
8 - 23.6" / 600 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 4.92" / 125 mm 393.86 ft / 120.05 m 9.84 ft / 3.00 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 95 % of normal length

- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 4.92" / 125 mm 1.97" / 50 mm 3.94" / 100 mm
2nd: 1.97" / 50 mm 0.98" / 25 mm 1.97" / 50 mm
3rd: 0.59" / 15 mm - -
4th: 0.59" / 15 mm - -

- Armour deck: 1.97" / 50 mm, Conning tower: 3.94" / 100 mm

Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Electric motors, 2 shafts, 79,494 shp / 59,303 Kw = 32.00 kts
Range 12,000nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 1,903 tons

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
13,622 lbs / 6,179 Kg = 48.2 x 8.3 " / 210 mm shells or 1.7 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.01
Metacentric height 2.5 ft / 0.8 m
Roll period: 16.6 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.79
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.00

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
and transom stern
Block coefficient: 0.516
Length to Beam Ratio: 10.32 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 28.75 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 54 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 70
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 30.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 5.00 ft / 1.52 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 24.00 ft / 7.32 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 18.00 ft / 5.49 m
- Mid (50 %): 18.00 ft / 5.49 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 17.00 ft / 5.18 m
- Stern: 17.00 ft / 5.18 m
- Average freeboard: 18.16 ft / 5.53 m
Ship tends to be wet forward

Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.99
- Longitudinal: 1.04
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform

-------------------------------------------------

Valkyre D, Denmark CA laid down 1928

Displacement:
12,390 t light; 12,989 t standard; 14,373 t normal; 15,480 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
686.17 ft / 660.00 ft x 70.00 ft x 21.00 ft (normal load)
209.14 m / 201.17 m x 21.34 m x 6.40 m

Armament:
10 - 8.27" / 210 mm guns (4 mounts), 282.57lbs / 128.17kg shells, 1925 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
12 - 4.72" / 120 mm guns (6x2 guns), 52.72lbs / 23.91kg shells, 1925 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on side, all amidships, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
16 - 2.24" / 57.0 mm guns (8x2 guns), 5.65lbs / 2.56kg shells, 1928 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread
24 - 0.79" / 20.0 mm guns (12x2 guns), 0.24lbs / 0.11kg shells, 1928 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 3,555 lbs / 1,612 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 150
8 - 23.6" / 600 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 4.92" / 125 mm 412.93 ft / 125.86 m 10.17 ft / 3.10 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 96 % of normal length

- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 4.92" / 125 mm 1.97" / 50 mm 3.94" / 100 mm
2nd: 1.97" / 50 mm 0.98" / 25 mm 1.97" / 50 mm
3rd: 0.59" / 15 mm - -
4th: 0.59" / 15 mm - -

- Armour deck: 1.97" / 50 mm, Conning tower: 3.94" / 100 mm

Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Electric motors, 2 shafts, 101,138 shp / 75,449 Kw = 33.00 kts
Range 14,000nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 2,491 tons

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
17,193 lbs / 7,799 Kg = 60.8 x 8.3 " / 210 mm shells or 1.9 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.04
Metacentric height 3.2 ft / 1.0 m
Roll period: 16.5 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.64
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.00

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
and transom stern
Block coefficient: 0.519
Length to Beam Ratio: 9.43 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 29.39 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 56 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 70
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 30.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 10.00 ft / 3.05 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 28.00 ft / 8.53 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
- Mid (50 %): 19.50 ft / 5.94 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 19.00 ft / 5.79 m
- Stern: 19.00 ft / 5.79 m
- Average freeboard: 20.15 ft / 6.14 m
Ship tends to be wet forward

Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.98
- Longitudinal: 1.15
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform

-------------------------------------------------

Valkyre B, Denmark CA laid down 1928

Displacement:
11,998 t light; 12,637 t standard; 13,999 t normal; 15,088 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
685.01 ft / 660.00 ft x 70.00 ft x 21.00 ft (normal load)
208.79 m / 201.17 m x 21.34 m x 6.40 m

Armament:
12 - 8.27" / 210 mm guns (4x3 guns), 282.57lbs / 128.17kg shells, 1925 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
12 - 4.72" / 120 mm guns (6x2 guns), 52.72lbs / 23.91kg shells, 1925 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on side, all amidships, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
16 - 2.24" / 57.0 mm guns (8x2 guns), 5.65lbs / 2.56kg shells, 1928 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread
24 - 0.79" / 20.0 mm guns (12x2 guns), 0.24lbs / 0.11kg shells, 1928 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 4,120 lbs / 1,869 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 150
8 - 23.6" / 600 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 4.92" / 125 mm 398.59 ft / 121.49 m 10.17 ft / 3.10 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 93 % of normal length

- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 4.92" / 125 mm 1.97" / 50 mm 3.94" / 100 mm
2nd: 1.97" / 50 mm 0.98" / 25 mm 1.97" / 50 mm
3rd: 0.59" / 15 mm - -
4th: 0.59" / 15 mm - -

- Armour deck: 1.97" / 50 mm, Conning tower: 3.94" / 100 mm

Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Electric motors, 2 shafts, 87,700 shp / 65,424 Kw = 32.00 kts
Range 14,000nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 2,452 tons

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
16,712 lbs / 7,580 Kg = 59.1 x 8.3 " / 210 mm shells or 2.0 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.04
Metacentric height 3.1 ft / 1.0 m
Roll period: 16.6 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.71
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.00

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
and transom stern
Block coefficient: 0.505
Length to Beam Ratio: 9.43 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 29.44 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 54 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 70
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 30.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 10.00 ft / 3.05 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 26.00 ft / 7.92 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 19.00 ft / 5.79 m
- Mid (50 %): 18.00 ft / 5.49 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 17.00 ft / 5.18 m
- Stern: 17.00 ft / 5.18 m
- Average freeboard: 18.59 ft / 5.66 m
Ship tends to be wet forward

Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.99
- Longitudinal: 1.08
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform

Do you gain anything by using smaller designs like Variant C? Will you get an additional hull?

Don't currently have limits to work to!

But it would mean building 5 to save the tonnage needed for a sixth, instead of 5 limit ships

The 8 gun design is substantially less survivable than the other two. Her stability is only 1.01, which means that she will have to begin counterflooding almost immediately once she takes damage. This will bring her down fast.

Of the remaining two, the 10-gun design has better survivability, and it may be that having a 3-knot advantage over HMS Repulse instead of a 2-knot advantage may make a difference.

Your designs all have Transom sterns and are slower than 34knts.

I'll send you my follow to Zara for you to have a look at.

Thanks, I clould push the speed by dropping the armour, but would that put her below historical standard?

I did a few without a transom stern, but they all run 32 kts.

Your timing is perfect. We can compare notes when I lay down Vadodara and Varanasi.

So are these cruisers intended to operate anywhere, or do you have a specific theatre in mind for them?

I agree that your eight gunner is perhaps the least survivable of the three, but making the dimensions closer to 10:1 or less could give you better stability and hull strength. It's also useful to remember that us little guys can't really afford to build ships that are too big for their missions - we haven't got a lot of material to waste, even if there's no treaty to worry about.

I'd say tinker with the eight gunner some more and see what you can do. Stability and seakeeping aside, it's a good package.

J

Quoted

It's also useful to remember that us little guys can't really afford to build ships that are too big for their missions - we haven't got a lot of material to waste, even if there's no treaty to worry about.

Sure. France has a globe-spanning Empire (in the Carribean, North Africa, the Med, scattered possessions in the Indian Ocean, Indochina, New Caledonia, and Polynesia) to look after, and a treaty allocation of 60,000 tons for Class A cruisers to do it with, so France has gone for numbers. The Suffren class has 4x2 200mm on 10,000 tons, and the Duquesene class has 3x3 200mm on the same tonnage. In the early 1930s, there will be another pair the same size. This will allow France to have a division of two CAs with each of the three major French fleets. They won't refuse combat against another of their type, but without luck they'll likely be defeated. But strategic considerations dictate the 10,000 ton design.

The Danish Empire is a bit more concentrated than the French, so they might not need numbers as badly. That's why I'd go for the faster, more powerful, and more survivable 10-gun design were I in Denmark's position.

Depends if the Danish would rather have two ship, three ship, or four ship elements for there base units. Chile being even smaller and with less infrustructure as do work with what they can, but a larger power can pick and choose.

How about using a 5x2 or 6x2 main gun layout? :-)

I like the 10x8.2" design the best, a good balance between armor and armament and with a speed of 33 knots she's no slouch.

I´d go with the smaller design because another hull is more important to the Danish - in my eyes - than bigger individual units. Sometimes one can´t have the best ship of a chosen category. Sometimes a smaller design has to be good enough - or the better choice, depending on the strategic situation.

However, I´d work on her hull again, just like the Dox said. And I second RA´s comment on transome sterns...

... 10 guns simmed as 5x2...
... is better than...
... 10 guns simmed in 4 turrets...
... is better than...
... 10 guns simmed as 2x3 and 2x2.

So a cruiser that either looks like Battleship Texas, or one of the newer Japanese heavy cruisers?

Well, the Danes also need to consider who they are likely to encounter, and if the lighter hull will do the job they need. Perhaps they might want to construct both types. The lighter one for European waters, and the heavier ones for Indian Ocean duty. Three of each will probably not run the cost up too much more than building 6 of the lighter ones. Or you could build just two of the heavier ones, but not have the spare for rotations. The extra might come at a cost to your capital ship, or escort construction funds, but it might be best to get the vessel you need verses hulls to just fill a void.

The Danes could build a set of lighter battleship/battlecruisers in the 30s to conpensate for the loss of resources due to cruiser construction. Say a pair of 11 inch gun fast battlecruisers....sort of like a Dutch design using German guns....

Quoted

So a cruiser that either looks like Battleship Texas, or one of the newer Japanese heavy cruisers?

I think that's a simple choice: one that looks like the newer Japanese heavy cruisers.

The reason for that is that I simmed the Valkyre myself using the 5x2 layout and since it wasn't given, I used 100 tons miscellaneous weight.
When I went from 5 turrets to 4 turrets, Hull Strength dropped to 0.99 and when I used separate slots for the non superfiring main turrets and superfiring main turrets, it dropped to 0.97.
Therefore when using SS, the 5x2 sim is better than the other two sims.

Sorry, Walter, forgot about the misc weight. Your guess off 100 tons is spot on.

I have to ask though, what layout are you thinking off for 5X2 turret layout - ABCXY or ABQXY??, and if the first, would that be even remotely in keeping with history.

I was originally thinking A3-B2-X2-Y3 for the layout

As for their role, they are principally going to act as station flagships, so that means 4 hulls (Siam, East Africa, West Africa and Carribean) plus "floating" reserve of HEL and FREYA

As for the transom, I have simmed all options without it!

Something like this.
Warning: those are pretty big pictures.

I'm sorry, and please don't take offence, but that just looks
[SIZE=4]WRONG!!!!!![/SIZE]

Quoted

As for their role, they are principally going to act as station flagships (...) Siam

"Are you sure you want to do this?"

:-)

Why, are you planning something stupid?
Should I get the Iberian Armada prepped for a little outing with their Danish friends in S.E. Asia?