WesWorld

Folks:

I have allocated 3,000 t to refit into service one or more auxiliaries in 1928.

I currently have in service three oilers, one collier, and two tenders (stationed at the Andaman Islands and Asir). Otta is also being rebuilt as a repair ship. The collier exists primarily to support BB Babur and two old light cruisers, and will not need any assistance in that regard.

Possible options for the new auxiliaries include:

-Ammunition ships, though I think it reasonable to assume that I must have one or two already.

-Oilers

-Additional tenders

-Hospital ships

-Troop transports

-Aircraft transports

Any thoughts?

I considered a hospital ship once (for 1930), but decided to have those be strictly civilian. (Translation: I need that tonnage elsewhere. ;-) )

From your list, I'd probably go with the following priority order:

-Subtenders
-Troop transports
-Aircraft transports
-Ammunition ships
-Oilers
-Hospital ships

Have you considered multi-function ships?
Look at the auxillaries the Germans used to support their U-boats (fuel, ammo, and stores) - the USN used them as a AOR.
Combining functions would be the best way to get the most value

I hadn't thought of that, but it's worth some thought. Especially with a small navy and some fairly widely dispersed units.

I expect I'd have to build those ships from scratch, though, or at least embark on a more elaborate rebuilding of some kind of civilian vessel.

Regarding tenders - any practical reason a single tender could not support a small mixture of MTBs, coastal minewarfare ships, and coastal submarines?

Geez, John, are we ever going to lure you into joining as a player here?

Id´go with the tender option.

IMHO, most of us (including myself) are underestimating the number of purpose build auxiluries a navy needs. In general one can assume there should be at least one such ship for every small ship flotilla. Every mine sweeper squadron, every subchaser group, most torpedo boat squadrons etc. needs a ship large enough to house a staff and provide enough space and facilities to effectively operate such units. In case of DDs and TBs thi function might be fulfilled by a CL or a leader type DD but if this is not possible (lack of CLs for example) those units also need a tender.

Further more I also agree with the statement about multi-role ships. Historically tenders often were not only floating barracks for crews of small combatants (ships too small to house the crews) and their staff but also some kind of repair/depot ship, holding enough spares to keep the unit in question in action for some time.

So in general a tender often feature large cranes of some sorts large working areas and holds and enlarged crew quarters, i.e. enlarged superstructure.

I think a navy can hardly have too many tenders/depot ships....and the Indian Navy surely is hardly in danger to have too many.

As the nation with the most detailed tender program, how have SAE tenders been designed, and how are the various sizes allocated amongst the small craft units?

I figure that Italy is a fairly small country. There are lots of ports. I don't need that many tenders really. I do have 1 sorta hybrid seaplane carrier/sub tender but shes special. I'll probably build a few more smaller vessels in future.

Chile, being a small country, does not operate a lot of auxiliaries. I have just finished a new collier/oiler to allow for extended patrols in the Pacific. I did have the intention of building or purchasing two more collier type hulls and putting then to use as Transports.

I can see the point about using existing ports, but a lack of tenders would presumably impair one's ability to operate away from those ports.

Consensus seems to be on tenders, so far. My own thinking, incidently, was originally to refit an oiler and a hospital ship into service. Obviously those plans are not set in stone...

Heres the auxillary list of Atlantis....

Floatplane carrier/tenders: 2(0)0
Destroyer depot ships: 2(0)0
Submarine depot ships: 4(0)0
Repair ships 2(0)0
Transports: 6(4)0
Landing Craft Infantry 0(0)20
Infantry launches 38(0)0

I have yet to design the tenders and 1 repair ship but as you can see compaired to say Hoomans auxillary list mine is tiny!

India surely could use some tenders but I think given the size of their Army they could use some transports too.

Quoted

I can see the point about using existing ports, but a lack of tenders would presumably impair one's ability to operate away from those ports.

It is less than 2000miles from Port Said to Gibraltar. The Italian garrison at Cadiz(next to Gib) takes care of the western med, as do other Iberian ports. For the Eastern Med. its only 500-1000miles to Taranto. For East Africa, I have a quite developed, but Type 1 port and a newer Type 3 port as well as a Danish presence. It should be sufficient.

I was considering a minesweeper depot ship or two, but those have been back-burnered - the "heavy" sweeper force will have a minelayer-cruiser for flag, while the "coastal" forces will be, well, coastal.

I do have a purpose-built subtender in the plan, and those P&PSSCo freighters I mentioned a few Qs ago will have one of their number refit as a destroyer tender.

Subtender:

Filipino Calabarzon-class subtender, laid down 1930

Displacement:
1,000 t light; 1,026 t standard; 1,147 t normal; 1,244 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
197.82 ft / 190.29 ft x 32.48 ft x 10.83 ft (normal load)
60.29 m / 58.00 m x 9.90 m x 3.30 m

Armament:
1 - 3.94" / 100 mm guns in a single mount, 32.00lbs / 14.51kg shells, 1930 Model
Quick firing gun in a deck mount with a hoist
on centreline forward
1 - 1.57" / 40.0 mm guns in a single mount, 2.00lbs / 0.91kg shells, 1930 Model
Anti-aircraft gun in a deck mount
on centreline aft
2 - 0.54" / 13.7 mm guns in single mounts, 0.11lbs / 0.05kg shells, 1930 Model
Machine guns in deck mounts
on side, all amidships

Weight of broadside 34 lbs / 16 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 150

Armour:
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 1.18" / 30 mm - -
2nd: 0.79" / 20 mm - -

Machinery:
Diesel Internal combustion motors,
Geared drive, 2 shafts, 1,402 shp / 1,046 Kw = 13.97 kts
Range 8,500nm at 10.00 kts (Bunkerage = 219 tons)

Complement:
98 - 128

Cost:
£0.186 million / $0.742 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 4 tons, 0.4 %
Armour: 3 tons, 0.2 %
- Belts: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 3 tons, 0.2 %
- Armour Deck: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Conning Tower: 0 tons, 0.0 %
Machinery: 42 tons, 3.7 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 575 tons, 50.2 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 147 tons, 12.8 %
Miscellaneous weights: 375 tons, 32.7 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
2,415 lbs / 1,096 Kg = 79.2 x 3.9 " / 100 mm shells or 1.3 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.05
Metacentric height 1.0 ft / 0.3 m
Roll period: 13.5 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 51 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.05
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.66

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.600
Length to Beam Ratio: 5.86 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 13.79 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 51 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 31
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 20.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 2.00 ft / 0.61 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 15.19 ft / 4.63 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 10.66 ft / 3.25 m
- Mid (50 %): 9.65 ft / 2.94 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 9.65 ft / 2.94 m
- Stern: 9.65 ft / 2.94 m
- Average freeboard: 10.36 ft / 3.16 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 51.4 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 86.8 %
Waterplane Area: 4,520 Square feet or 420 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 232 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 82 lbs/sq ft or 402 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 1.80
- Longitudinal: 5.26
- Overall: 2.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
Room for accommodation and workspaces is cramped
Excellent seaboat, comfortable, can fire her guns in the heaviest weather

25t for flag accomodations
350t for supplies/torpedoes

***

Destroyer tender:

Filipino Chorlito-class destroyer tender, laid down 1926 (refit to AD 1932)

Displacement:
8,054 t light; 8,307 t standard; 9,878 t normal; 11,135 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
489.28 ft / 482.28 ft x 60.70 ft x 19.69 ft (normal load)
149.13 m / 147.00 m x 18.50 m x 6.00 m

Armament:
4 - 5.12" / 130 mm guns (2x2 guns), 70.00lbs / 31.75kg shells, 1932 Model
Dual purpose guns in deck mounts with hoists
on centreline ends, evenly spread
8 - 2.95" / 75.0 mm guns (4x2 guns), 13.00lbs / 5.90kg shells, 1932 Model
Dual purpose guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side ends, evenly spread
8 - 2.24" / 57.0 mm guns (4x2 guns), 6.00lbs / 2.72kg shells, 1932 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, all amidships
6 - 0.98" / 25.0 mm guns (2x3 guns), 0.57lbs / 0.26kg shells, 1932 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on centreline ends, evenly spread, all raised mounts
8 - 0.54" / 13.7 mm guns (4x2 guns), 0.11lbs / 0.05kg shells, 1932 Model
Machine guns in deck mounts
on side ends, evenly spread, all raised mounts - superfiring

Weight of broadside 436 lbs / 198 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 200

Armour:
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 1.97" / 50 mm 0.98" / 25 mm 0.98" / 25 mm
2nd: 1.18" / 30 mm 0.59" / 15 mm 0.98" / 25 mm
3rd: 0.98" / 25 mm - -
4th: 0.59" / 15 mm - -

- Conning tower: 1.97" / 50 mm

Machinery:
Diesel Internal combustion generators,
Electric motors, 2 shafts, 6,805 shp / 5,077 Kw = 16.00 kts
Range 20,000nm at 12.00 kts (Bunkerage = 2,828 tons)

Complement:
495 - 644

Cost:
£1.231 million / $4.926 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 52 tons, 0.5 %
Armour: 54 tons, 0.5 %
- Belts: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 34 tons, 0.3 %
- Armour Deck: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Conning Tower: 20 tons, 0.2 %
Machinery: 218 tons, 2.2 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 3,230 tons, 32.7 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,824 tons, 18.5 %
Miscellaneous weights: 4,500 tons, 45.6 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
15,874 lbs / 7,200 Kg = 236.8 x 5.1 " / 130 mm shells or 2.6 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.05
Metacentric height 2.6 ft / 0.8 m
Roll period: 15.8 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 47 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.08
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.55

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.600
Length to Beam Ratio: 7.95 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 21.96 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 31 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 29
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 7.00 ft / 2.13 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 24.61 ft / 7.50 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 16.40 ft / 5.00 m
- Mid (50 %): 14.76 ft / 4.50 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 14.76 ft / 4.50 m
- Stern: 14.76 ft / 4.50 m
- Average freeboard: 15.99 ft / 4.88 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 61.8 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 124.7 %
Waterplane Area: 21,409 Square feet or 1,989 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 183 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 103 lbs/sq ft or 501 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 1.25
- Longitudinal: 1.50
- Overall: 1.28
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Excellent seaboat, comfortable, can fire her guns in the heaviest weather

Even though my tender list may look impressive it is just the tip of an iceberg below. The tenders I listed so far are all purpose build (or rebuild) armed tenders that could also act as some kind of AMC or armed patrol or combat zone transporter if necessary. They offer some kind of offensive potential, that´s why I list them. They are comparable to supply units used by the Germans in WW2 or their purpose build tenders like the ALTMARK or the WILHELM BAUER.

However, I think there are probably at least another 50+ aux. ships to support my fleet like depot ships, tenders, oilers, colliers, repair ships, pump ships, blue-water tugs, hospital ships, floatplane rescue/recovery ships, purpose build ammo transports (for mines etc.), weather ships, catapult ships, avisos, training ships (imobile or mobile), floating barracks, troop transports and many more. And I´m talking of larger ships only here without mentioning pilot ships, harbour tugs etc. which will also be maintained by the RSAN.

Honestly it always had been too much work to work out what a fleet the size of the RSAN really needs and realistically would operate.

However, some of you don´t seem to understand the need for and the purpose of tenders and the like even if your navy is operating from full size ports. It is _not_ about giving your units an "over sea capability" wor something like that. Instead, it is all about keeping your forces active _while in post_.

Imagine a flotilla of ~12 MAS boats. On each boat you´ll have about 15 men. Probably two more in the flag ship. Now, where do you house those sailors? On those small and extremly cramped hulls? Thank you very much. :o) Glad I´m not a sailor of yours serving in such a flotilla. Another question: How do you supply those ships and their crews with power while in harbor? Fresh water and food? How do you repair small things? Do standard maintenance, replace a damaged 2cm gun? Send them to the yard each time, I guess?

Of course you could house your crews in barracks on the land and keep just some kind of guard on your ships. The Germans did that until 1918. The crews basically lived on shore - quite opposite to British practice for example where crews always lived on their ships. (Btw, this lead to interesting developments - for example the German designers skipped most lavatories and that kind of stuff saving weight for other things and keeping crew qaurters small, unthinkable for British designers.) Anyway, it has its drawbacks to have the crews on shore, especially during wartimes when you might have to be ready to sail immediately. Having your crews live on the ships or attended tenders they will also identify more with their ships then otherwise. Might help now and then.

Fact is, you need lots of tenders and other aux. vessels if you want to operate your fleet - especially if it contains not only big units but also all the small stuff a balanced fleet normally features....

Cheers,

HoOmAn

Well, from the first page of Chile's Infrustructure...what you see is all I have....because with the exception of stuff I've built since or stuff that was added to Chile before it became a player nation (and two destroyers I added)...thats all Chile had in 1924-1927.

I've since built one auxiliary to extend fleet operations into the Pacific. Most other tasks of the fleet are relatively local, and what Chile had seemed to be enough for them. With the addition of two floatplane carriers, we can assume the training groups of subchasers could get supplied fairly quickly. Plus I was under the impression that such vessels were designed to operate in the open ocean by themselves for at least a few days.

"contracted civilian vessels"

:-)

Hell one of the auxillary's I'm designing right now acts as an Engineers training/transport ship, and I have plans to add a few Amenity's ships, water distillation ships, Fleet Oilers (lost in my last Computer implosion), Fleet tugs (also lost in my last Computer implosion) dispatch vessels and salvage vessels.

I plan on adding several auxillary's each year to the fleet roster to suplement the ones I already have (and need to design).

Quoted

Originally posted by Swamphen
"contracted civilian vessels"

:-)

...not that simple, not many repair vessels that you can lease out at a moments notice unless you want to pay an arm and a leg for the services. Oilers and Tugs are a different story.

Wouldn't that be an Aircraft Carrier Converted into a Cruiser?

Italian Auxiliaries as of 1940

1st Fleet (Vice Admiral Campioni)

Auxiliary Units:
Seaplane Tender GIUSEPPE MIRAGLIA
Water Tanker ISONZO
Water Tanker PO
Water Tanker GARDA
Tug ATLANTE
Tug LIPARI

2nd Fleet (Vice Admiral Paladini)

Auxiliary Units:
Repair Ship QUARNARO
Water Tanker VOLTURNO
Water Tanker ISTRIA
Water Tanker FLEGETONTE
Water Tanker MINCIO
Oil Tanker COCITO
Tug ERCOLE
Tug PORTOFERRAIO

Upper Adriatic Sea Department (Vice Admiral Ferdinando di Savoia)

Auxiliary Units:
Mine-layer ALBONA
Mine-layer LAURANA
Mine-layer ROVIGNO
Mine-layer ANZIO
Mine-layer SAN GIORGIO @
Mine-layer SAN GIUSTO @
Oil Tanker LETE
Water Tanker SCRIVIA
Water Tanker VERBANO

Albania Naval Command (Rear Admiral Tur)

Water Tanker PAGANO
Minesweeper VIGILANTE
Minesweeper VEDETTA

6th Submarine Group


Auxiliary Units:
Mine-layer MONTE GARGANO @
Gunboat PALMAIOLA
Gunboat DE LUTTI
Gunboat GRAZIOLI LANTE
Gunboat GIOVANNI BERTA
Gunboat VALOROSO
Water Tanker LINA CAMPANELLA @
Water Tanker POLIFEMO @
Water Tanker TICINO

Squadron, Lower Tyrrenhian Sea Department.

Auxiliary Units:
Mine-layer ORLANDO @
Mine-layer GASPERI @
Mine-layer CROTONE
Mine-layer FASANA
Transport Ship MATTEUCCI @
Gunboat RIMINI
Water Tanker DALMAZIA

Lower Tyrrenhian Sea Department (Vice Admiral Pini)

Auxiliary Units:
Mine-layer PARTENOPE@
Mine-layer BUFFOLUTO
Mine-layer DURAZZO
Mine-layer PELAGOSA
Mine-layer CARALIS @
Mine-layer DEFFENU @
Mine-layer MAZARA @
Mine-layer BUCCARI
Mine-layer SCILLA
Mine-layer BRIONI @
Mine-layer ADRIATICO @
Depot Ship PACINOTTI
Depot Ship ALESSANDRO VOLTA
Water Tanker ARNO
Water Tanker METAURO
Water Tanker VERDE
Water Tanker PROMETEO
Water Tanker BORMIDA
Water Tanker BRENTA

Ionian and Lower Adriatic Department (Vice Admiral Pasetti)

Auxiliary Units:
Mine-layer BARLETTA @
Mine-layer VIESTE
Mine-layer OTRANTO
Mine-layer GALLIPOLI
Transport Ship CHERSO
Transport Ship LUSSINO
Water Tanker SESIA
Water Tanker GARIGLIANO
Water Tanker TIRSO
Water Tanker ADIGE
Gunboat CIRENE

5th Submarine Group

Auxiliary Units:
Mine-layer LERO @
Mine-layer LEGNANO
Gunboat SONZINI
Gunboat CABOTO
Oil Tanker CERERE

8th Submarine Group

Auxiliary Units:
Gunboat PORTO CORSINI
Gunboat BIGLIERI
Mine-layer OSTIA
Oil Tanker NIOBE
Water Tanker SILE
Water Tanker SEBETO
Water Tanker BACCHIGLIONE

Naval GHQ directly-controlled auxiliaries:
Royal Yacht AURORA
Royal Yacht SAVOIA
Royal Yacht ILLIRIA
Radio-controlled target-ship SAN MARCO
Hydrographic Ship AMMIRAGLIO MAGNAGHI
Hydrographic Ship CARIDDI
Transport Ship ENRICHETTA
Transport Ship TRIPOLI
Transport Ship VALLELUNGA
Transport Ship PANIGAGLIA
Transport Ship ASMARA
Hospital Ship AQUILEIA
Cable-layer CITTA' DI MILANO
Cable-layer GIASONE
Oil Tanker TARVISIO
Oil Tanker BRENNERO
Oil Tanker URANO
Oil Tanker BRONTE
Oil Tanker NETTUNO
Oil Tanker GIOVE
Oil Tanker MARTE
Oil Tanker STIGE
Tug TESEO
Tug TITANO
Tug CICLOPE
Tug MARETTIMO
Tug LUNI
Tug EGADI
Tug NEREO
Tug MARSIGLI
Tug MONTECRISTO

The ships marked with an @ are requisitioned civilian ships.

I think I need as many auxiliaries as actual warships.

I'm highly tempted to leave it and just stay that I have enough as is.

Why so many water tankers?