WesWorld

We started using RA's thread for this discussion, so I thought I'd start a thread so we aren't using his. If its in the wrong place, one of the mods could move it.

I'd say that a gentleman's agreement is what we are going to have to settle with for right now.

My primary concern is that right now there isn't any real restrictions on the quantity and quality of Aircraft and Land Weapons. There is no rule to prevent me, for instance for building a Romanian airforce composing 5000 1000 hp fighters, and 1000 1200 hp bombers, despite the fact that neither of these figures is anywhere close to what either OTL Romania or WW Romania is economically capable of producing. However, at the same time, having a set number of factories for each nation is not I feel an ideal solution either. The reason being, is that this is an alt reality sim, with an independent India, a Russia that didn't go Communist (yet ), a unified and more powerful Iberia, a SA empire, and the biggest change of all, some big obstacle in the middle of the Atlantic . Romania, and Poland, can perhaps go with their original production and aircraft numbers, considering their history, and size has not changed dramatically from OTL. But what about those nations which were not part of history or had radical changes made to them? Can we set a precise number for them?

I was going to go with a combination of what Poland and Romania actually produced in OTL, as well as what the international situation was, as my guideline for the size of my Army and Air Force. My Romanian Air Force of 1939 would have been around 600 to 800 planes with a 3:1 ratio in fighters to bombers, perhaps, we all agree to a cap for our Air Forces, and Armies, and go from there? The cap would last five years. Just a suggestion mind you.

Regarding engine horsepower, I'd say a 1999hp cap, lasting till 1940 and the 5 year rule for production aircraft is what I consider sufficient.

Just my thoughts.

Well when I created Atlantis I figured army wise they would be the strength of something between France and Germany.

Airforce wise something similar, 3,200 fighters when all current designs are produced. With a similar ratio of fighters and bombers to Romania.

Are figures for airforce size necessary? From scripting the South American war I learned figures on planes and tanks or artillery pieces are not necessary. Just take what you need for a plot and make sure it´s half way realistic at least.

The other issue you raised is the one of advanced tech which is a completely different one and requires the will of everybody to stick to whatever rule is agreed on. We originally had the +3 rule but it was busted because some wanted even more. Then we had the +5 bleeding edge addition to the rule but +5 soon became standard as player x was trying to outbuild/outperforme player y time and again. Finally we´ve moved beyond +5.... So as long as people are not willing to honour a rule there is need trying to put one together.

Sidenote, not focused on any specific person: Often new players tend to go too far. Problem might be that they are either overly enthusiastic or try to make their stand instead of building on the already written history or plots available in WesWorld. There is no solution to this problem.

That´s _my_ experience from 5+ years of WesWorld and it´s kind of frustrating even though the Gentlemen´s Rules for ships have been widely accepted and kept in place. That´s the light at the end of the tunnel that keeps me going....

Actuall we had the 5 year rule for all the technology first. For some unknown reason that was suddenly changed to 3 years (and I do not know when that happened). I generally look 3-5 years ahead for things (though I went a wee bit over that with a couple of Japanese tanks back in 1929 or so).

Regarding numbers, I try to go for civilized numbers when purchasing foreign planes (as can be seen from Japan's purchases from GW). If I have to give a number for planes available, I'll just have to take a look at a few pages and give a number that looks reasonable for a nation like Japan to have.

My way of working things out is to create an OOB and TO&E charts and use that to give you the numbers. There is no point ordering 1000 fighters if you only have two squadrons and a handful of trainers (of course you may wish to create a strategic stockpile of planes for attrition purposes). Even so in peacetime it is unlikely you will wreck more than 10 of any one type of plane in a year and most of these might not be total write-offs.

I feel most players can be trusted to use sensible figures, afterall WW is a naval sim, the air and land parts come as sideshows not as the main event.

I guess I'll just build thousands and thousands of these...

... and clone an army of Manzos.

I'd just say, stick to the +3 year rule and enforce it. Nothing more than 3 years advanced is allowed, no exceptions. This would only apply to actual perfromance. You could build a 4,000hp engine, but you would not be allowed to gain any benefit from it.

Most, if not all, of the shouting in relation to aircraft designs has been at the inseption of the design.

I would suggest that DF's hard and fast rule be applied to production aircraft, not prototypes, so as to allow developement, because most of the "great" planes have taken at least 2 years to develope in real life. So, the FW190 could start developement in 1936 to allow for it's real life first flight in Bremen(?) in summer of 1939.

Does this sound reasonable??

Quoted

Originally posted by Rooijen10
Actuall we had the 5 year rule for all the technology first. For some unknown reason that was suddenly changed to 3 years (and I do not know when that happened). I generally look 3-5 years ahead for things (though I went a wee bit over that with a couple of Japanese tanks back in 1929 or so).

That would be because most of us were not comfortable with it applying to all tech and even now some are questioning the aircraft only rule.

The idea preposed by DF and Mac sounds reasonable to me.

Quoted

Originally posted by Rooijen10
I guess I'll just build thousands and thousands of these...

... and clone an army of Manzos.

No "Baka" bombs, Walter.... they waste useful pilots.

Not with an army of cloned Manzos flying them.

Quoted

Originally posted by Rooijen10
Not with an army of cloned Manzos flying them.

No, that's just a waste of the cloner's time!!

Quoted

Originally posted by Commodore Green
Most, if not all, of the shouting in relation to aircraft designs has been at the inseption of the design.

I would suggest that DF's hard and fast rule be applied to production aircraft, not prototypes, so as to allow developement, because most of the "great" planes have taken at least 2 years to develope in real life. So, the FW190 could start developement in 1936 to allow for it's real life first flight in Bremen(?) in summer of 1939.

Does this sound reasonable??

Hmmmm. The problem I see here is the existence in WW of planes that are ahead of their real-world selves (the Bf-109 is an example of this, as is the Hawker Hurricane, etc). The first -109s, for instance, were certainly flying in 1935, but it was the first prototype equipped with a Rolls-Royce Kestrel, not the WW version which is equivalent to the historical -109E model.

However, I've no problem with cutting it back to a hard +3 rule: planes cannot be fielded earlier than 3 years before their historical date, engines cannot have a higher efficiency than a production engine of +3 years, etc.

I guess that +3 for everything could work. India tanks are a little ahead of the curve but with no major warfare I can see then being the main battle tank for the rest of the sim except for certain modifications (extra armor and maybe change the main battle gun down the road)

Aircrafts must likely will be the same, with the aircrafts going advancing to certain series, for example I can see the bomber receiving extra weapons after the lessons of the South American War are digested (1937 most likely).

Quoted

Originally posted by HoOmAn
That´s _my_ experience from 5+ years of WesWorld and it´s kind of frustrating even though the Gentlemen´s Rules for ships have been widely accepted and kept in place. That´s the light at the end of the tunnel that keeps me going....

One of the things that has become evident is different folks seem to have a difference of opinion as to what the agreement on aircraft is.

When I came to Wesworld, I found the historic 1929 D.XVII biplane fighter was tremendously outclassed by what others were fielding. So I asked, was told the regular production aircraft tech +3 year standard, +5 year bleeding edge bit.

Something like a simple +3 rule may work... but I think it has to be posted like the gentlemen's rules for ships.

edit : Preference is +0 for land, +0 for naval, +3 for propeller-driven air "stuff" , +3 for anti-air "stuff".



Additionally, if we are to have 'fine tuning' of planebuilder that should be specified. An example is modifying the bracing weights- they seem high, we could modify them, but that modification should be posted in a centralized spot so everyone can use the lower weight.
Again, something like the gentlemen's rules thread.

Now my vote : Roll all land and air tech back to -10 years.
I want to see war in the 1920s... missed it here... what, no takers?

+3 year works for me. Guess I shall have to wait on the IAR. 80 until 1939.

Quoted

Originally posted by Hrolf Hakonson
Hmmmm. The problem I see here is the existence in WW of planes that are ahead of their real-world selves (the Bf-109 is an example of this, as is the Hawker Hurricane, etc). The first -109s, for instance, were certainly flying in 1935, but it was the first prototype equipped with a Rolls-Royce Kestrel, not the WW version which is equivalent to the historical -109E model.

However, I've no problem with cutting it back to a hard +3 rule: planes cannot be fielded earlier than 3 years before their historical date, engines cannot have a higher efficiency than a production engine of +3 years, etc.

Any rule brought in halfway through, has to exclude those aircraft already in production, otherwise you are redesigning everything that has gone before....it's what we do with ships when we upgrade versions of SS.....so why should this be any different??

Quoted

Originally posted by Rooijen10
I guess I'll just build thousands and thousands of these...

... and clone an army of Manzos.

Why clone when you can build souless killers.

I don't have any particular problems with this but things might have to be adapted depending on how things go. If somewhat starts a long land war lasting years then tanks and other bits are going to rapidly develop ahead of OTL.