WesWorld

Hopes for a loong oil guzzling battle

Quoted

Originally posted by Hrolf Hakonson
Did the Brazillians hit with 2 12cm rounds or 4? The text says both.....

You´re right, there was something missing. I now added the information about the other two shells.

Quoted

Originally posted by Brockpaine
Unless something serious happens to Rijnhard, I expect the Brazilians will be in a spot of real trouble soon...

Thanks for your enthusiasm pro RSAN. :o)

However, it´s 10x 12" guns against 8x 11" so the Brazilians have a huge advantage here...

Quoted

Originally posted by Desertfox
*looks at Brazil BC specs*

They carry torpedoes... :evil: At this range they stand a very good chance fo torpedoeing the SAE BCs.

;o) They might try to use them, indeed. Chances at these ranges and in bad weather may be slim, however....

Might as well put fish in the water, they won't do any good aboard ship. And in a gunfight like this, where both sides are going to want to keep their guns working, the target might keep a more predictable course, rather than manuevering which would throw off it's own gun fire. The range, though, could be a bit of an issue.


10 12" vs 8 11" at these ranges won't make a large difference: the difference in weight of shell is partially compensated by likely faster firing on the 11" guns, and not having any confusion about whose shells hit or missed just now.

(Another small piece for you guys. More to come asap....]

Meanwhile the Hertog Alexander had reduced speed to 18kn due to the damage to her bow. When the Brazilians disappeared she had turned to course 45° at 02:53pm in case her enemies would turn back for action. To counter the trim to her bow four empty fuel bunkers were flooded aft reducing it to a mere 2°. At 02:56pm a sighting report from the Hertog Rijnhard reached her and Vice-Admiral van Spierenburg ordered a turn to the East to intercept the Brazilians and re-enter the fight. He also ordered revolutions for 20kn again thus increasing the amount of water that was pouring into the ships bow.

According to the ships log the enemy was not in sight during this phase so the sighting report at 02:58pm was not unexpected but the enemy´s position and course came as a surprise. The Brazilians had just finished their turn and were across the Hertog Alexanders bow, slightly to port, at a range of 13400 meters. Van Spierenburg immediately ordered a new course (8°) to allow all his main guns to open fire on the leading enemy. His ship was then on a slightly converging course to the latter but slowed due to the sharp turn to North.

At this point it has often been speculated if it was coincidence that put the Brazilian force on a course that allowed them to cross the Hertog Alexanders course. Research after the war revealed this was not the case. Just as Commander Royo wrote in his book "The Guns Of Brasilia" Brazilian look-outs had reported a grey shadow exactly over Recifes bow at 02:57pm. Thus the turn at 02:57pm has to be rated as a clever move by Brazilian Admiral Raimondo d´Oro as it opened the range to the Hertog Rijnhard to the South and put his ships in a favourable position regarding the other battlecruisers bow.

On their new course and with a new target to the West the Brazilians split fire. Recife´s destroyed C turret would not have allowed her to continue against the Hertog Rijnhard for long so she switched target and re-opened against the Hertog Alexander at 02:58pm. Her 12cm guns remained on their current target as did the Rio de Janeiro´s main and secondary battery. Both Brazilian battlecruisers continued on course 330° until 03:01pm when they turned to course 0°. At this point range to the Hertog Alexander had dropped to 116hm but increased to 7600m regarding her sister and the two Brazilian vessels were pulling ahead of the South Africans.

While the Brazilians opened the range to the Hertog Rijnhard the latter remained on her current course and kept a steady fire against her opponents. Her targets turn had slightly thrown off her aim but at 03:00pm and again at 03:01pm she scored against the Recife with her main guns while a total of five 15cm shells also found their target. In return she was hit eight times by the Rio de Janeiro. Three of those shells were of 30,5cm calibre and caused heavy damage compensating her bad shooting in the early stages of the engagement.

The shooting of the Hertog Alexander was quite ineffective during these minutes. The unexpected crossing of her T had surprised her gunnery crews and the sharp turn onto a new course did not help much either, nor did the interference with shell splashes from the Hertog Rijnhard. None of her heavy shells found the leading vessel which still happened to be the Recife. Only two 15cm projectile could be landed in this phase of the battle.

Aw rats. Come on, Afrikaners, sink the Brazilians!! *Waves a RSAN flag to cheer them on.*

This is a fascinating story. Is this the first time since the Great War that WW capital ships have fought, or have I missed something?

Well, there were the predreads duelling it out with each other during the Filipino mess during the late 1920s. Also Japanese capital ships saw actions near As Salif, supporting the Indians in the very early 1920s. One or two were involved in the early 1920s against a couple of Pirate vessels. I believe there are a few more examples, but can't think of any right now.

... and most of those capital ships actions are not as detailed as this is..

*Cheers for the Brazilians*

Have the Brazilians launched their torps? Sure the range is long but the South Africans won't be expecting torpedoes. HA especially is vulnerable with her T crossed and battle damage.

The South Georgia War, where 2 fleets clashed and drew lots of blood on one side, and quite a large a mount on the other.

[This is the rest of Phase 4. Phase 5, the final phase, will be posted soon too so stay tuned....]

All units had been hit during those 4 minutes from 02:57pm to 03:01pm and the damage done was remarkable. Worst were the hits against the Hertog Rijnhard. At 02:59pm a 30,5cm shell hit the starboard hangar, entering the space about 2m forward of the upper ventilation trunk. Range was calculated as 6600 meters so the trajectory of the projectile was quite flat at about 4,5°. After passing through the stored floatplane the shell carried on against and the past the lower parts of the ships forward funnel until it partially disintegrated in the port side hangar without exploding. Fires were started immediately as avgas spread from ruptured pipes and a burst of flames could be seen from the Rio de Janeiro, clearly marking their good shooting. Making things worse for the Hertog Rijnhard the area also filled with exhaust gases from the destroyed funnel so damage parties had troubles to fight the fires. Heat, smoke and flames also forced the crew to abandon adjacent spaces, including boiler room 8 [Note 11]. Combined with the hit at 02:57pm the forward superstructure on the South African battlecruiser had become a burning nightmare.

Following the hit at 02:59pm the Hertog Rijnhard was shaken by another impact at 02:30pm. The shell struck and pierced the 200mm upper belt in line with aft coning tower. It went through the 15mm main deck into the medical store and burst about three meters from impact. The room was completely wrecked, Very severe damage was caused to light structures and the shell had a very marked incendiary effect. The aft starboard 15cm hand-ups and hoist were badly holed by fragments between the main and middle deck as well as the main and upper deck. The flash of the burst passed via the hand-ups to No. 7 where it burned the gun crew and No. 6 starboard casemate which was in the process of loading. A serious ammo fire was caused and the gun crew killed. The flash of the shell-burst also passed down a trunk to the dynamo room on the platform deck and burned all the men there. The explosion blew a hole of 2m x 3m into the main deck and part of the shell head went through the armoured deck and was found in the lower coning tower. The aft starboard hydraulic pump was put out of action by fracture of the pressure pipe, though the remaining three pumps kept all four turrets operational. This hit at 03:00pm was the most destructive in the battle and could have caused the loss of the ship but the flash-tight doors to the starboard aft 15cm magazine held, preventing the flames to reach the explosives stored there.

The third hit by a 30,5cm shell struck at 03:01pm and hit the upper left edge of B turrets face plate at the junction with the roof plate. A large junk of the 280mm plate was torn out but the shell deflected upward. Some fragments entered the gun house and killed two of the crew operating the left gun which subsequently missed three salvos but otherwise remained in action.

The five 12cm shells that also hit during this phase were:
#1  against the hull plating aft of D turret where it detonated on impact but caused little damage
#2  through the starboard beam of the aft tripod mast without exploding
#3  against the upper starboard 88mm mount just forward of the aft conning tower. The gun mount was completely destroyed and the crew killed. Splinters from the shell carried on and also cut down two of the port gun.
#4  against the main belt below No.3 barbet where it left only a small scar of 10cm length
#5  through the ventilation blowers aft of C turret which were wrecked

As noted above the Hertog Rijnhard scored too during those minutes until the Brazilians turned to North. The hit at 03:00pm entered the hull of the Recife between B barbet and bridge about 1,2m above CWL. At that range the 210mm main belt had no chance to defeat the 28cm AP shell and was clearly penetrated. The shell then penetrated the outer 20mm bulkhead and detonated 4m from impact in the upper part of the port feed-water tank and a large hole was blown in the 15mm main deck above. The light floor of the tank was shattered and the main armour deck badly distorted at and near the top of the slope above the port side of the wing engine room and adjacent fuel tank. The 15mm bulkhead forming the inner side of the feed tank was also penetrated by the shells base and fragments. Through ruptured cable and ventilation trunks water entered the port wing engine room but the flow of water was eventually stopped by plugging the holes and the engine room could be saved and later pumped dry.

At 03.01pm a 28cm projectile hit the Recife just aft of her forward funnel. Striking from abaft her beam the shell came in at an oblique angle of approx. 30° but the upper belt could not deflect it. The 40mm of steel were pierced and the shell exploded 1,8m from impact with considerable damage to light structures. [Note 12]

Of the five 15cm shells that hit the Recife one struck the searchlight platform atop her bridge, destroying the projector and killing the crew and another hit the forward coning tower just aft of the post bridge wing. The shell could not defeat the 130mm plate but caused a remarkable dent. Splinters from these two hits caused havoc among the bridge crew and 14 were killed or heavily wounded, among them Captain Marco D´Angelo. He was brought to the sick bay but died several minutes later from blood loss. The third 15cm shell detonated against the main belt below the boat deck without effect while the forth cut off the main mast 3 meters below its mast top, destroying several radio antennas. Finally the hull plating 6 meters aft of C turret was torn apart by another hit which exploded on impact. The weather deck was bent upward and the 8cm Teak plating slivered. Fragments of the shell travelled deeper into the hull and destroyed crew quarters. However, with the crew on battle stations nobody was injured.

The two shells from the Hertog Alexanders secondary battery hit the Recife at 02:59pm and again at 03:01pm. The first caused some damage as detonated against the 75mm face plate of the secondary mount superfiring C turret. The plate was not holed but displaced and the mount heavily shaken. Splinters entered through the left and centre gun port. Several crew members were killed or wounded and the left gun barrel damaged 0,8m outside the gun house, rendering the gun useless. The hit at 03:01pm had much less effect. It passed through the ships second funnel without exploding.

Notes:

[Note 11]
Due to ruptured pipes in the forward funnel ventilation broke down and exhaust gases entered boiler room 8 which had to be vacated for some time subsequently. Fires were not blown out in the boilers but several security valves shut down and the boilers XV and XVI had to be taken offline. This, however, had no effect on the ships speed. The remaining boilers still produced enough power for 25kn.

[Note 12]
The 15mm shelter deck was holed in two places and the upper deck riddled below the burst. One large fragment was driven down through the main deck and another came to rest in a storing room 12 meters from the explosion. The effect of the burst and fragments went right across an athwart gangway to the starboard side of the ship, wrecking all ventilation trunks in the vicinity as well as cutting fire-control cables to the rangefinders abreast the forward funnel. A small fire was started but could soon be extinguished.

Aw man. I want the Hertogs to win... it's not looking so good for them, it seems.

South Americans need a victory to justify themselves for a fall later on. Chile's victory in Bolivia was to make them over-confident, but the place they are in the world now doesn't lead them down that path yet since they are still repairing the damage from the last war.

A victory for the South Americans could gain them more foreign support.And it sets a dangerous precedent for Mexico...

"He, he, he..."

(Here´s Phase Five of the Battle..... Enjoy!)

The Battle  Phase Five

The Brazilians turn at 03:01pm brought them on a course nearly parallel to the Hertog Alexander, allowing a good fire solution for the latter. Range between both sides was 11,600 meters and increasing as the Brazilians higher speed let them pull away [Note 13] but the Hertog Alexander could hit her opposing number at 03:03pm and again at 03:06pm and 03:07pm with a total of four heavy shells. Fire from her secondary battery was kept up until 03:05pm and then halted. No hits from the 15cm guns were observed during this phase [Note 14]. In return the Hertog Alexander was hit two times by heavy shells during this phase.

The situation on the Hertog Rijnhard was different. When the Brazilians turned further away at 03:01pm Captain Phelan Kell of the Hertog Rijnhard had a decision to make. His ship had suffered heavily during the last minutes under very accurate fire from the unopposed Rio de Janeiro while fire from both South African units against a single target, the Recife, impaired their fire-control. He also had to consider that due to their new course the leading Brazilian would be masked by fumes and gun smoke very soon making the situation worse for the Hertog Rijnhard. He therefore decided to shift fire to the trailing Brazilian which happened to be the Rio de Janeiro.

Until 03:05pm the Hertog Rijnhard continued on her current course when Captain Kell ordered her to turn to course 325°. Range had increased to approx. 10,000 meters and the Brazilians were pulling away. The turn to 325° would reduce escape speed and allow his ship to remain in the aft sector of the Rio de Janeiro. However, at 03:07pm the Brazilians turned to 30° and at 03:15pm to 60°. Range had increased to 146hm to the Hertog Rijnhard and 134hm to the Hertog Alexander at this point and the Brazilian ships could no longer be clearly made out due to smoke and bad weather. During those minutes the Hertog Rijnhard scored twice against the Rio de Janeiro at 03:04pm and 03:07pm and again at 03:11pm before the target could no longer be shot at effectively after her turn at 03:15pm.

The Rio de Janeiro could land two heavy shells against the Hertog Rijnhard during this phase at 03:02pm and 03:03pm. However, fire from the Brazilian ship became more and more inaccurate as only her aft turret could be trained on the Hertog Rijnhard and at 03:08pm the Rio de Janeiro shifted target on the Hertog Alexander again. Only one hit could be achieved against the new target at 03:11pm before fire was then ceased after her turn at 03:15pm.

The first ship to be hit after the Brazilieans turn at 03:01pm was the Hertog Rijnhard. The Rio de Janeiro had kept up a steady fire and was rewarded with a hit at 03:02pm when a shell pierced through the weather deck abaft A turret, passed a 20mm bulkhead and struck the port side of B barbet, about 2 meters below the deck, where it glanced off and detonated. The surface of the 280mm barbet armour was spalled for 40cm x 30cm for a depth of 11mm with concentric cracks while the upper deck was holed between the barbet and the side longitudinal bulkhead. Many fittings were destroyed in the vicinity and the turret was heavily shaken, which temporarily interrupted the power supply to the training motor but this was quickly put right by the gun crews and the turret missed only three salvos. The second shell that hit the Hertog Rijnhard carried away her aft main director and killed most of the men in the area. Splinters from this hit also entered the aft coning tower and cut down several men of the port side aftermost 88mm AA gun.

The Rijnhards return fire resulted in three hits of which the first came in on the Rio de Janeiro at 03:04pm. Striking from aft, port side, the shell entered through the deck near the forward edge of A barbet. It made a hole approx. 2m x 1,5m in the upper deck over the sick bay and passed through several compartments being deflected down and up again by the armoured deck before it went out through the starboard hull plating without exploding. Considerable damage was caused in passing through and chemicals in the sick bay caused a fire. The next blow was dealt at 03:07pm. Full details of this hit have not survived but the shell went through the end of the after superstructure and then hit the after side of the communication tube (100mm walls) to the torpedo control tower, half severed it and being deflected before bursting. The port side of the after superstructure was holed in many places by fragments.

The shell at 03:11pm struck the main deck in line midway between C turret and the aft superfiring secondary mount. It tore a large hole into the side plating and exploded 3,5 meters from impact causing severe damage to light steel work up to 5 meters from the burst. A 50mm thick door was blown of its hinges in the 50mm longitudinal bulkhead which formed the far wall of the flooding cabinet. The base plug of the shell was driven through the decks and brought to stop by C magazine cooler which was damaged. A large number of ventilation trunks were holed by this shell and the fire-main broken. The fire-main pumps continued to pump water onto the main deck and this found its way into C cooler space until it rose high enough to burn out the pump starter and cause several short-circuits [Note 15].

All was not well on the Hertog Alexander during those minutes. Over 1.500 tons of water had meanwhile entered her bow, dragging it down, forcing Vice-Admiral van Spierenburg to reduce speed and still allowed waves to wash over her bow, causing troubles for A turret which subsequently missed several salvos due to short-circuits. However, the guns could be brought online time and again and while her manoeuvrability was permanently impaired the Alexanders fighting capabilities were not and she scored well against the leading Brazilian battlecruiser. At 03:03pm one of her 28cm smashed through the face plate of the aft superfiring secondary turret on the Recife. A shower of fragments from the shell and plate were driven into the gun house and the following blast, when the shell exploded on exiting the back plate, gutted the turret entirely, also blowing the aft roof plate away. Nobody of the crew inside the turret survived. Those who may have survived were subsequently burned when three charges on the ammo lift ignited and a large tongue of flames rose into the air through the open roof, clearly marking the hit for the Hertog Alexander. The flash did not reach the Recife´s magazines and the ship survived but only the aft beam secondary mount remained to cover the aft sector of the ship.

Hertog Alexander continued to proof being a deadly shooter and at 03:06pm two more impacts rocked the Recife. Out of a single half-salvo the South Africans had scored twice, first against the targets forward coning tower. Coming from slightly abaft the beam the shell hit the lower edge of the coning tower where it met the bridge deck. Range was about 120hm and the plate was partially holed, driving a plug into the coning tower. Heavy damage was done to communication trunks and cables to the main director cut, so the mains guns then had to be directed from the aft fire control station but no more hits were obtained. Fragments from the blast also travelled across the bridge, destroying the light AA guns in the vicinity and killing several men including the ships XO. The other shell that hit smashed into the ships fantail about 3 meters from the stern and 1,5 meters below the weather deck. The hull plating was torn open and the shell passed through the hangar bulkheads and out through starboard without exploding. Light structure in the flight pass was destroyed and shrapnel from the shell heavily damaged the floatplanes stored in the hangar. Avgas began to spread from ruptured tanks but luckily was not ignited and damage parties had the situation under control pretty soon.

Not allowing the crew aboard the Recife much time to recover another projectile hit at 03:07pm, this time against the funnel base of the second funnel. The shell smashed through the port torpedo bank, losing its cap during the process and exploded when passing through the funnel base just above the armoured gratings that protected the funnel uptakes. A large hole was blown into the upper deck, destroying supporting structure of the port boat crane which subsequently fell against the funnel and then onto the boat deck aft of its original position. The aftermost starboard side 76mm gun was destroyed by splinters and the crew cut down. Inside the funnel the armoured grating was heavily damaged but prevented large splinters from reaching the engineering spaces. However, everything above was either destroyed or heavily damaged. As a result the uptakes could no longer fan the exhaust gases and pressure was build up inside that reduced the machinery´s performance [Note 16].

Despite her heavy damage the Recife fought back well and one of her 30,5cm shells hit the Hertog Alexander´s main belt at the upper edge of the starboard bulge below No. 3 casemate. The shell burst on the 300mm plate of which a piece 26cm x 32cm x 60mm deep was broken off the surface. The plate was driven in about 20cm with a 80mm deep crack. The bulge was partially destroyed over a length of 5 meters and a depth of 3 meters. The backing plating of the belt was much torn and pierced at one place by a splinter. The starboard wings were flooded for 18 meters, the protective bunkers for 13,5 meters. A small amount of water also entered the protective bunkers further forward, but this was drained and the bunker doors in the undamaged torpedo bulkhead which admitted a little water in were made right.

The hit at 03:07pm struck the right gun of B turret, about 2,1 meters from the turret face. The gun was badly dented and flattened and thrown violently to one side with damage to the cradle and cradle carrier. It was completely out of action. The turret training gear was temporarily disabled due to short-circuits. The left gun was undamaged but the director-pointer gear was put out of action and the turret could no longer fire with the others.

As described above the Rio de Janeiro shifted fire at 03:08pm towards the Hertog Alexander and subsequently landed a single hit at 03:11pm. The shell entered the hull through the hull plating just forward of No. 6 starboard casemate, 90cm below deck edge, and exploded approx. 3 meters from impact while passing through a 25mm bulkhead. The weather deck was buckled and the 88mm AA gun atop No. 6 casemate could no longer be trained and operated. Everybody inside the casemate was killed, the gun displaced and blocked while fragments also travelled into No. 7 casemate where one gunnery mate was mortally wounded. A small fire was started due to smoldering debris but soon put out before ammunition could ignite.

At 03:15pm, when the Brazilians made their turn to obviously disengage the situation asked for Vice-Admiral Van Spierenburg to decide if he wanted to follow or let the enemy raiders escape. His flagship had suffered damage to her bow which resulted in a trim forward and reduced performance while her main armament was down one turret. Inside her hull the Hertog Alexander was still in good condition but she would be hard pressed to catch the Brazilians and a chase would have required an effective forward battery which was not available due to the damage to B turret. Conditions on the Hertog Rijnhard remained unclear as she no longer answered to the radio. Obviously her sea speed was not impaired as she had been able to catch up with the flagship but she was trailing smoke and fire and showed signs of heavy damage. It was questionable if she would have a chance against both Brazilians should the Hertog Alexander not be capable to keep up with her.

The Brazilians had both been hit and hit hard too. The Rio de Janeiro, flagship of Admiral D´Oro, had lost her aft director, making it difficult to fight back in a stern chase and the problems with C magazine were not yet solved. The battlecruiser was still in fighting order but would have been forced to turn around again to effectively battle the South Africans. Her sistership, the Recife, could no longer be rated as in fighting order. A total of twelve heavy calibre hits had torn into her hull and she had lost C turret and part of her secondary battery. Her forward range finder could no longer be used due to destroyed cables inside the damaged coning tower and her machinery showed reduced performance due to the heavily damaged second funnel.

However, this information was not available to the South African commander. Without a clear picture of the damage his own ships had suffered and the damage done to the enemy Vice-Admiral van Spierenburg decided against pursuit and at 03:27pm the Brazilians had effectively escaped [Note 17].

Notes:

[Note 13]
Speed of the Hertog Alexander can be generally assumed to be 18kn at that time. The damage to her bow did not allow higher speeds. Even so more and more water entered the ship forward of A barbet and she slowly settled by the bow. As a result she took over much more water forward and when an attempt was made to increase speed to follow the Brazilians between 03:09pm and 03:12pm water also entered A barbet and caused short-circuits which left the turret without power for several minutes.

[Note 14]
There actually was one at 03:03pm. The shell hit just forward of the torpedo tubes and detonated below the aftermost 76mm gun. The shelter deck was deformed and buckled by the blast and the gun mount could no longer be trained. Shrapnels were also blown through the upper deck and light fittings in the vicinity were destroyed. Why the hit was not observed remains unclear.

[Note 15]
As a result of this hit smoke and fumes entered C main magazine which had to evacuated for several minutes but this had little impact on the battle as firing calmed down after the Brazilians turn at 03:15pm anyway.

[Note 16]
Following this hit the Recife was forced to reduce speed by a knot but range was still opening as her new course carried her further away from the South Africans.

[Note 17]
At that time range was 20,000 meters to the Hertog Rijnhard and 21,200 meters to her sister respectively.
Rio de Janeiro rated 78%
Recife rated 64%
Port Elizabeth sunk 0%
Porto Alegre rated 99%
Hertog Alexander rated 74%
Hertog Rijnhard rated 67%

Here´s a map showing most of Phase 4 and 5. Sadly I have nothing comparable for the early stages of the fight.

You can see the Hertog Alexander to the left, the Hertog Rijnhard coming up from the South and the two Brazilian ships to the East.

Quoted

Originally posted by HoOmAn
Here´s a map showing most of Phase 4 and 5. Sadly I have nothing comparable for the early stages of the fight.

Oooooh maps....

Quoted

Originally posted by Kaiser Kirk

Quoted

Originally posted by HoOmAn
Here´s a map showing most of Phase 4 and 5. Sadly I have nothing comparable for the early stages of the fight.

Oooooh maps.... :)

Maps? You missed all the whaaaaangs?!?

.....Paper by preference or necessity?

I'm glad the Hertogs survived...

...next time I expect the RSAN will make a better showing?