WesWorld

Quoted

Not really. Add .01 knots of speed and she's in the clear. (Refer to Walter's LRMPS ship)

There are a few other ships around (RSAN) that are only slightly faster than my LRMPS (though it is true that they come closest to the 24 knot limit).
Alswinn and Arwakr (24.03 knots). Ringhorn and Nagelfar (24.68 knots). These ships actually predate my LRMPS (1926 and 1928 while mine are 1930).

Personally I still think that my idea of using the square root of the length to determine the minimum HS is better, but it was turned down because it was deemed "too complicated" which is quite funny actually because SS kinda does it for you when you enter the length of the ship (as long as you mark the transom stern option after you have determined that speed; using the transom stern option alters the 'natural' speed for length meaning it's no longer the square root of the length of the ship).

Looking around a bit more, I also see a few small RSAN ship classes with speeds <24 and HS <1.00... something haven't noticed that before... but it is understandable since SS has a hard time simming such small, medium speed boats.

Well, yes. That should be true for <200ts vessels where we special rules anyway and where I really wanted the "strained by open sea conditions" remark.

The Mehrzweckboot is larger and cannot be build to the small boat rules. I´d say it has to be build to the standard rules.

Probably the problem can be easily solved by reducing misc weight which seems a bit excessive. I know it is a historical Never-Were but the anti-submarine equipment seems stronger than on the original design.

Quoted

Originally posted by HoOmAn
Well, yes. That should be true for <200ts vessels where we special rules anyway and where I really wanted the "strained by open sea conditions" remark.

The Mehrzweckboot is larger and cannot be build to the small boat rules. I´d say it has to be build to the standard rules.

The question in hand is an interpretation of the standard rules. The Gentleman's rule states, ">24 knots". The vessel, as currently designed, has a speed of 24 knots.

If we interpret the Gentleman's rules literally "Greater than 24 knots", how much greater is greater?

I would argue that "Equal to or greater" would be a more realistic interpretation, but if that is not acceptable, I'd like an answer to the first issue - how much further would the speed have to be pushed?

"Equal to or greater" is fine for me, although I personally tend to read it as "greater". But seriously, what difference is there between 24kn and 24,01kn?

Quoted

Originally posted by HoOmAn
"Equal to or greater" is fine for me, although I personally tend to read it as "greater". But seriously, what difference is there between 24kn and 24,01kn?

Thank you - that is the very question I was asking. Sachmle had raised the issue of the literal "Greater Than" for the speed requirement. I took it to mean "Equal to or greater", with which you have agreed. I take it therefore that the design is acceptable.

And I am quite happy for your ruling in the matter.

Thank you.

Quoted

Originally posted by HoOmAn
"Equal to or greater" is fine for me, although I personally tend to read it as "greater". But seriously, what difference is there between 24kn and 24,01kn?

It's not likely that the log is even accurate to one-one hundredth of a knot. You probably won't even be able to tell the difference on the measured mile....

Donau class Fleet Supply Ship

Displacement: 7,689 t light; 8,179 t standard; 23,804 t normal; 36,305 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught

553.14 ft / 541.67 ft x 75.13 ft x 31.50 ft (normal load) [168.60 m / 165.10 m x 22.90 m x 9.60 m]

Armament:

2 - 4.13" / 105 mm guns in single mounts, 35.32lbs / 16.02kg shells, 1940 Model Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
4 - 1.46" / 37.0 mm guns (2x2 guns), 1.55lbs / 0.70kg shells, 1940 Model Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts on side, all aft
4 - 0.79" / 20.0 mm guns in single mounts, 0.24lbs / 0.11kg shells, 1940 Model Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
Weight of broadside 78 lbs / 35 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 300

Machinery:

Diesel Internal combustion motors, Geared drive, 2 shafts, 17,337 shp / 12,934 Kw = 18.00 kts
Range 83,000nm at 15.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 28,126 tons

Complement: 957 - 1,245

Cost: £2.053 million / $8.212 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:

Armament: 10 tons, 0.0 %
Machinery: 464 tons, 1.9 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 4,715 tons, 19.8 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 16,115 tons, 67.7 %
Miscellaneous weights: 2,500 tons, 10.5 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:

Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship): 125,720 lbs / 57,026 Kg = 3,559.3 x 4.1 " / 105 mm shells or 14.7 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.55
Metacentric height 6.8 ft / 2.1 m
Roll period: 12.1 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 100 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.00
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 2.00

Hull form characteristics:

Hull has raised forecastle, rise forward of midbreak
Block coefficient: 0.650
Length to Beam Ratio: 7.21 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 23.27 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 38 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 25.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 24.61 ft / 7.50 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 20.34 ft / 6.20 m (19.36 ft / 5.90 m aft of break)
- Mid (50 %): 18.70 ft / 5.70 m (18.04 ft / 5.50 m aft of break)
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 18.04 ft / 5.50 m
- Stern: 20.34 ft / 6.20 m
- Average freeboard: 19.31 ft / 5.89 m
Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:

Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 19.9 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 114.8 %
Waterplane Area: 31,176 Square feet or 2,896 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 679 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 98 lbs/sq ft or 479 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.95
- Longitudinal: 1.48
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Excellent seaboat, comfortable, can fire her guns in the heaviest weather

Breakdown of miscellaneous weight:

Provision for UNREP gear - 250 tons
Provision for refrigerated stores - 500 tons
Provision for dry and packaged stores - 750 tons
Provision for munitions - 1,000 tons

True bunkers 2,361 tons for radius of 12,000 nm; remainder of bunkers used to sim POL as cargo:

Bunker fuel oil: 11,000 tons
Diesel oil: 900 tons
Aviation petrol: 1,245 tons

Ersatz Emden class Light Cruiser

Displacement: 7,557 t light; 7,875 t standard; 8,676 t normal; 9,317 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught

582.14 ft / 564.30 ft x 57.41 ft x 17.39 ft (normal load) [177.44 m / 172.00 m x 17.50 m x 5.30 m]

Armament:

9 - 5.91" / 150 mm guns (3x3 guns), 102.98lbs / 46.71kg shells, 1940 Model Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes) on centreline ends, majority forward, 1 raised mount – superfiring
8 - 4.13" / 105 mm guns (4x2 guns), 35.32lbs / 16.02kg shells, 1938 Model Dual purpose guns in deck mounts with hoists on side ends, evenly spread
8 - 1.46" / 37.0 mm guns (4x2 guns), 1.55lbs / 0.70kg shells, 1938 Model Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
12 - 0.79" / 20.0 mm guns (6x2 guns), 0.24lbs / 0.11kg shells, 1938 Model Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
Weight of broadside 1,225 lbs / 555 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 200
4 - 21.0" / 533.4 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:

Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 3.54" / 90 mm 321.52 ft / 98.00 m 9.84 ft / 3.00 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 88 % of normal length

Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 3.94" / 100 mm 1.97" / 50 mm 3.94" / 100 mm
2nd: 0.79" / 20 mm 0.39" / 10 mm -
3rd: 0.39" / 10 mm - -
4th: 0.39" / 10 mm - -

Armour deck: 1.97" / 50 mm, Conning tower: 3.94" / 100 mm

Machinery:

Oil fired boilers, steam turbines, Geared drive, 2 shafts, 70,085 shp / 52,283 Kw = 32.00 kts; Range 7,700nm at 15.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 1,442 tons

Complement: 449 - 584

Cost: £3.933 million / $15.730 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:

Armament: 153 tons, 1.8 %
Armour: 1,645 tons, 19.0 %
- Belts: 478 tons, 5.5 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 283 tons, 3.3 %
- Armour Deck: 848 tons, 9.8 %
- Conning Tower: 36 tons, 0.4 %
Machinery: 1,874 tons, 21.6 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 3,785 tons, 43.6 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,119 tons, 12.9 %
Miscellaneous weights: 100 tons, 1.2 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:

Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship): 14,410 lbs / 6,536 Kg = 139.9 x 5.9 " / 150 mm shells or 1.8 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.12
Metacentric height 2.7 ft / 0.8 m
Roll period: 14.7 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 71 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.49
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.42

Hull form characteristics:

Hull has a flush deck and transom stern
Block coefficient: 0.539
Length to Beam Ratio: 9.83 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 27.03 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 58 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 25.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 6.56 ft / 2.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 24.18 ft / 7.37 m
- Forecastle (49 %): 22.15 ft / 6.75 m
- Mid (0 %): 22.15 ft / 6.75 m
- Quarterdeck (49 %): 22.15 ft / 6.75 m
- Stern: 24.11 ft / 7.35 m
- Average freeboard: 23.03 ft / 7.02 m
Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:

Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 86.1 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 200.2 %
Waterplane Area: 23,293 Square feet or 2,164 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 129 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 96 lbs/sq ft or 467 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.92
- Longitudinal: 2.15
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

100 tons miscellaneous weight reserved for torpedo tube reloads, aircraft and handling gear, and/or RDF.

Interesting. It looks like an updated variant of the Ankara and Danube class cruisers built to German export designs...

Quoted

Originally posted by Brockpaine
Interesting. It looks like an updated variant of the Ankara and Danube class cruisers built to German export designs...

Not a conscious imitation on my part, but convergence of good design does come into play.

Still, a few changes. Less armour except on the deck, larger secondary armament, longer length, a lot fewer torpedoes, and a lot better of a seaboat.

Quoted

Originally posted by Brockpaine
Still, a few changes. Less armour except on the deck, larger secondary armament, longer length, a lot fewer torpedoes, and a lot better of a seaboat.

For some reason, can't open the link.

That said, my goal was to design a ship about the size of the Emden to replace her and her sister, but with better combat capability. I think I have succeeded.

If you add an additional 105mm mounting aft you're very close to the modified Fijis. As such I think you might need to think about a couple of extra feet on the beam for stability.

It seems a solid enough design and well sized to replace Emden, but is that what Germany needs? The Karlsruhe-Class isn't that much more expensive and commonality is always good. I can see why like-for-like replacements are popular, but I'm not sure it's always right. I wouldn't have thought numbers to be very important for Germany; If the navy needs two new cruisers, they might as well be a bit bigger and more capable.

Quoted

Originally posted by Red Admiral
If you add an additional 105mm mounting aft you're very close to the modified Fijis. As such I think you might need to think about a couple of extra feet on the beam for stability.

It seems a solid enough design and well sized to replace Emden, but is that what Germany needs? The Karlsruhe-Class isn't that much more expensive and commonality is always good. I can see why like-for-like replacements are popular, but I'm not sure it's always right. I wouldn't have thought numbers to be very important for Germany; If the navy needs two new cruisers, they might as well be a bit bigger and more capable.

Because two Ersatz-Emdens are less expensive than two additional Karlsruhes? And why tie up two 10,000 ton cruisers as flotilla leaders? The Kriegsmarine has increasing responsibilities and is, at the present time, not properly balanced to carry them out. Tonnage needs to be spared in one category to permit construction in another.

These ships are less expensive, but the difference is pretty small. 6000tons extra for two ships out of a budget of 124,000tons per year? It doesn't appear to be a large amount.

As leaders for Flotillas of destroyers they make more sense, but doesn't Germany already have a bunch of large destroyers with 150mm guns that'd be better in this role?

Quoted

Originally posted by Red Admiral
These ships are less expensive, but the difference is pretty small. 6000tons extra for two ships out of a budget of 124,000tons per year? It doesn't appear to be a large amount.

As leaders for Flotillas of destroyers they make more sense, but doesn't Germany already have a bunch of large destroyers with 150mm guns that'd be better in this role?

One can do much with 6,000 tons - I am a bit familiar with penny-pinching naval budgets.

The large destroyers, as noted in the fleet organization, do not perform the role of flotilla leader. They are organized separately in their own flotillas.

...hmm, not to be rude or anything, but it sort of seems like Germany needs more than just two new light cruisers...I'd possibly think about laying down 4-6 to begin with, but I don't control Germany.

Quoted

Originally posted by TexanCowboy
...hmm, not to be rude or anything, but it sort of seems like Germany needs more than just two new light cruisers...I'd possibly think about laying down 4-6 to begin with, but I don't control Germany.

Had you checked the quarterly construction summaries, you would have noted that Germany has a number of cruisers under construction at the moment, and scheduled to complete in 1940-41.

The Ersatz Emden design is *one* design for future construction. It should not be considered the only one, merely the only new design planed for 1940.

Minesweeper Typ 1940 Multi-purpose Minecraft

Displacement: 475 t light; 512 t standard; 600 t normal; 671 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught

200.34 ft / 196.85 ft x 24.61 ft x 7.55 ft (normal load) [61.06 m / 60.00 m x 7.50 m x 2.30 m]

Armament:

4 - 4.13" / 105 mm guns (2x2 guns), 35.32lbs / 16.02kg shells, 1940 Model Dual purpose guns in deck mounts with hoists on centreline ends, evenly spread
2 - 1.46" / 37.0 mm guns (1x2 guns), 1.55lbs / 0.70kg shells, 1940 Model Anti-aircraft guns in deck mount on centerline amidships, all raised guns - superfiring
8 - 0.79" / 20.0 mm guns (4x2 guns), 0.24lbs / 0.11kg shells, 1940 Model Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
Weight of broadside 146 lbs / 66 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 300

Armour:

Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 1.18" / 30 mm 0.59" / 15 mm 1.18" / 30 mm
2nd: 0.59" / 15 mm 0.39" / 10 mm -
3rd: 0.59" / 15 mm - -

Machinery:

Coal fired boilers, complex reciprocating steam engines,
Direct drive, 2 shafts, 1,524 ihp / 1,137 Kw = 16.00 kts
Range 3,600nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 159 tons (100% coal)

Complement: 59 - 78

Cost: £0.269 million / $1.078 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:

Armament: 18 tons, 3.0 %
Armour: 10 tons, 1.7 %
- Belts: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 10 tons, 1.7 %
- Armour Deck: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Conning Tower: 0 tons, 0.0 %
Machinery: 92 tons, 15.4 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 254 tons, 42.3 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 126 tons, 20.9 %
Miscellaneous weights: 100 tons, 16.7 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:

Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship): 932 lbs / 423 Kg = 26.4 x 4.1 " / 105 mm shells or 0.5 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.19
Metacentric height 0.8 ft / 0.3 m
Roll period: 11.2 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 52 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.62
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 2.00

Hull form characteristics:

Hull has raised forecastle, rise forward of midbreak, low quarterdeck
Block coefficient: 0.575
Length to Beam Ratio: 8.00 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 14.03 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 52 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 26
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 12.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 16.40 ft / 5.00 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 15.42 ft / 4.70 m (14.76 ft / 4.50 m aft of break)
- Mid (35 %): 10.17 ft / 3.10 m (9.51 ft / 2.90 m aft of break)
- Quarterdeck (35 %): 7.55 ft / 2.30 m (8.53 ft / 2.60 m before break)
- Stern: 6.56 ft / 2.00 m
- Average freeboard: 10.21 ft / 3.11 m
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 94.1 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 113.6 %
Waterplane Area: 3,461 Square feet or 322 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 136 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 41 lbs/sq ft or 202 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.87
- Longitudinal: 3.51
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate
Excellent seaboat, comfortable, can fire her guns in the heaviest weather

Miscellaneous weight - 100 tons reserved for minesweeping gear and up to 30 mines dependant upon employment

Well being prudent with tonnage is always a good thing but you can have a spree every now and then.

The Ersatz Emden isn't a bad cruiser at all, but maybe by spending a bit more you could get a more powerful fleet. The design you have is useful as a traditional CL for scouting and close protection and overseas work (these are similar to my Syclla Class designed mainly for Colonial work) but against a force of the newer 12x6in types they might struggle.

I confess to never understanding why you'd want to put a CL with a destroyer flottilla. One will outrun the other, one will perform better in poorer seas than the other and tactically keeping together is a nightmare. Then when your looking for small destroyer-sized targets in a typical Atantic day a bigger CL is going to give the gaff away.