WesWorld

Quoted

Yes, I'm an N2 Rule fanatic.

"N2 rule? 'Organic compounds containing exclusively hydrogen, carbon, nitrogen, oxygen, silicon, phosphorus, sulfur, and the halogens either have 1) an odd nominal mass that indicates an odd number of nitrogen atoms are present or 2) an even nominal mass that indicates an even number of nitrogen atoms are present in the molecular ion'? I'm not sure what that has to do with all those battleships, sir."

The Squared Law, sometimes known as Lanchester's Law of Modern Warfare, is intended to apply to ranged combat, and it quantifies the value of the relative advantage of having a larger army. With the Linear Law, this advantage is proportional to the size of the forces, but when the entire force of both sides can engage the other simultaneously, the relative advantage is a function of the square of the force size. Again assuming equal Pk, the casualties of the larger army will be proportional to the ratio of the squared forces sizes.

So for example, if N1 = 3000 and N2 = 2000, then this ratio C2/C1 is equal to (dropping zeros, 3^2 / 2^2 = ) 9/4 or 2.25. By the end of the battle side 2 will have suffered 2.25 casualties to every 1 on side-1. Conversely, side-1 will lose 4/9 or 44.4% of its initial force of what side 2 loses, for total casualties of (4/9)*2000 = 889 soldiers.

Or, as Napoleon said, God is on the side of the big battalions.

It more precisely dictates the importance of getting off the first shot and reducing your opponent's forces to gain a tactical advantage. For example, a smaller force can use the N2 principle to nullify a larger force's advantage if the smaller force is able to get the first volley off well before the enemy can. Or, in as simple a terms as I can put it, N2 law means "the more you make the enemy soldier's dead, the fewer soldiers they'll have to shoot back with."

The example on pgs 67-68 of Capt. Wayne Hughes Jr's "Fleet Tactics-Theory and Practice" shows that if two equal battleship forces, each ship with 20 minutes of "staying power" under the fire of an enemy battleship, meet and one opens effective fire only four minutes before the other, the slower force is totally destroyed, while the initiator loses only forty percent of it's battleships.

This would go along way towards explaining the fixation with kill ratio's in the American army!

The US Army is all about "combat multipliers", like intelligence, comms, and fire support.

It runs into a problem dealing with insurgency, which takes lots of trained infantry/ military police. So you see things like tankers and artillerymen doing infantry functions, and hating every minute of it!

Yep the new war!

Quoted

Originally posted by CanisD

Beautiful, Canis!

Do I see additional beam around the forward turret?

One minor nit with the sim, the historic Iowa and her sisters had a block coefficient of .61. I would think Kansas would equal that.

Quoted

I figure the Iowa had that same feature with its forward stack. I seem to remember reading that it had something to do with preventing vibration in the director.

What you do not smell is Iocane powder!

Slightly more seriously, I think what you recall was a thread in one of the earlier iterations of Warship Projects. We were discussing the "wigwam" on US battleships, and MJBurmaster commented that the combining of the Iowas forward stack into the forward superstructure lent additional rigidity to the forward director tower ("wigwam"), lessening any vibration effects on the main director.

Regards,

I'm not entirely sure of the "why" behind the fast battleship design. Or rather where it links in with the slower Montana Class. Historically the speed of the Iowas was aimed towards the Japanese battlecruisers and heavy cruisers. If anything, that problem is worse here, with lots more cruisers, and the battleships being fast as well. To me, having only a few fast ships doesn't make a great deal of sense. I'd think that they'd all be fast, or all be slow instead to give some commonality.

For the design itself; I compare it to the Italian Littorio Class laid down 7 years earlier. It's 10,000tons heavier, in exchange for 16" guns instead of 15", and less than a knot more speed.

Picture - unmistakeably a modern US battleship, but sufficiently different from anything else. I'm not really sure the reduction in superstructure for better AA arcs is worth the reduced volume for living quarters/equipment. A lot of the superstructure is going to be filled with trunking for the single funnel as well.

Kansas's shells are about 40% heavier than Littorio's. Also, Kansas carries 20 shells per gun more than the Littorio. With those superheavy 2700 lbs shells, that'll be eating up hull strength. There is of course the famous 70mm Italian CT which also saves something like 0.03 HS. I noticed that the Kansas's main gun turrets and barbettes are much better protected than Littorio's. Also Kansas is simmed without a transom stern.

Also I noticed that there are 40 raised 47mm guns in the Littorio picture, but the sim indicates none.

Are those things really worth 10,000tons for the small improvement in fighting power?

10,000 tons will get you additional survivability too, making her able to handle more punishment while she dishes her own out to the enemy. She can take a similar number of shells as the Littorio's but of the larger 16" caliber, and more torps as well. Also, as Walter says she carries much heavier shells, which IMO are worth the "small improvement in firepower", ROF will be superior to the 18" while penitrating power will be similar.

The increase in size is useful from the survivability and growth points, but presents limited "bang for buck". The USN could easily afford to do such a thing, but then it could also afford another 5,000tons to build more Montanas instead... I'd see that as being worth the investment.

Small improvement in firepower; the Italian 381/50 has pretty much identical horizontal penetration as the 16"/50 and an identical sized bursting charge. Damage from a hit will be pretty similar. (Deck penetration from the 16"/50 is a lot better, but then the flat trajectory of the 381/50 makes deck hits unlikely) There isn't going to be a great deal of difference between them in a real life situation.

Penetration may be the same, but I'm willing to bet you'd rather be hit by a 1900lb 381mm shell than a 2700lb 16" shell.

Quoted

Originally posted by Brockpaine
Penetration may be the same, but I'm willing to bet you'd rather be hit by a 1900lb 381mm shell than a 2700lb 16" shell.

I think even dropping one on my foot would quite hurt, let alone being hit by one.

The damage from a shell against a target like this is going to be primarily from the explosion; the blast causing structural damage and starting fires. You've got big heavy bits of shell moving around and hitting things like ice cream machines, but it's impossible to predict exactly where those bits are going to go. They might knock stuff out of action ("stuff" including crew here) but its a secondary damage mechanism.

Quoted

You've got big heavy bits of shell moving around and hitting things like ice cream machines...

N-n-not the gedunk maker! Anything but that!

I do have to agree with Gavin on the question of where these ships fit in the doctrine; the USN generally preferred a uniform speed for the battleline; historically the Iowas were something of an aberration due to concerns about the Kongos (more or less), and were additions to a 6 ship 27 knot battleline, with 5 more 27 knot ships on order. Here, there's 4 27 knot Montanas, and now 4 32 knot Kentuckys to counter no Kongos, 3 32 knot Renown knockoffs, 3 30 knot Okunis, and 2+ 30 knot Yamatos. Also, most other powers have settled on the 28-32 knot range for their new construction, uniformly. Are these 8 ships all that's planned, or is there more to the long-term USN plans and doctrine, with additional "slow" ships for the battleline, or are the Montanas aberrations?

Quoted

Originally posted by Red Admiral
Small improvement in firepower; the Italian 381/50 has pretty much identical horizontal penetration as the 16"/50 and an identical sized bursting charge. Damage from a hit will be pretty similar. (Deck penetration from the 16"/50 is a lot better, but then the flat trajectory of the 381/50 makes deck hits unlikely) There isn't going to be a great deal of difference between them in a real life situation.

-consults list, takes two shots-

Basically the stock Iowa

USS Kansas, United States Battleship laid down 1941

Displacement:
49,368 t light; 52,363 t standard; 56,364 t normal; 59,566 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
891.55 ft / 860.00 ft x 110.00 ft (Bulges 116.00 ft) x 35.00 ft (normal load)
271.74 m / 262.13 m x 33.53 m (Bulges 35.36 m) x 10.67 m

Armament:
9 - 16.00" / 406 mm guns (3x3 guns), 2,700.00lbs / 1,224.70kg shells, 1941 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, majority forward, 1 raised mount - superfiring
20 - 5.00" / 127 mm guns (10x2 guns), 55.00lbs / 24.95kg shells, 1941 Model
Dual purpose guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, all amidships, all raised mounts - superfiring
64 - 1.57" / 40.0 mm guns (16x4 guns), 1.95lbs / 0.88kg shells, 1941 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, all amidships, 14 raised mounts - superfiring
46 - 0.79" / 20.0 mm guns in single mounts, 0.24lbs / 0.11kg shells, 1941 Model
Machine guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 25,536 lbs / 11,583 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 130

Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 17.0" / 432 mm 478.85 ft / 145.95 m 12.59 ft / 3.84 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 86 % of normal length

- Torpedo Bulkhead and Bulges:
3.00" / 76 mm 478.85 ft / 145.95 m 32.43 ft / 9.88 m

- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 17.0" / 432 mm 10.0" / 254 mm 17.5" / 445 mm
2nd: 2.00" / 51 mm 1.00" / 25 mm 2.00" / 51 mm
3rd: 0.50" / 13 mm - -
4th: 0.50" / 13 mm - -

- Armour deck: 6.50" / 165 mm, Conning tower: 18.00" / 457 mm

Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 4 shafts, 227,160 shp / 169,462 Kw = 32.00 kts
Range 12,000nm at 15.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 7,203 tons

Complement:
1,828 - 2,377

Cost:
£28.741 million / $114.963 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 2,477 tons, 4.4 %
Armour: 18,936 tons, 33.6 %
- Belts: 4,517 tons, 8.0 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 1,724 tons, 3.1 %
- Armament: 4,074 tons, 7.2 %
- Armour Deck: 8,051 tons, 14.3 %
- Conning Tower: 570 tons, 1.0 %
Machinery: 6,003 tons, 10.7 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 21,692 tons, 38.5 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 6,996 tons, 12.4 %
Miscellaneous weights: 260 tons, 0.5 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
74,593 lbs / 33,835 Kg = 36.4 x 16.0 " / 406 mm shells or 12.1 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.16
Metacentric height 7.6 ft / 2.3 m
Roll period: 17.6 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 50 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.55
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.01

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.565
Length to Beam Ratio: 7.41 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 29.33 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 53 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 32.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 7.80 ft / 2.38 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 38.00 ft / 11.58 m
- Forecastle (22 %): 22.00 ft / 6.71 m
- Mid (50 %): 21.00 ft / 6.40 m
- Quarterdeck (22 %): 21.00 ft / 6.40 m
- Stern: 23.00 ft / 7.01 m
- Average freeboard: 23.00 ft / 7.01 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 85.6 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 148.3 %
Waterplane Area: 66,956 Square feet or 6,220 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 110 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 227 lbs/sq ft or 1,108 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.98
- Longitudinal: 1.20
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent

A fast Montana, based on the BB65-8

USS Kansas, United States Battleship laid down 1941

Displacement:
67,974 t light; 71,970 t standard; 76,927 t normal; 80,894 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
1,075.05 ft / 1,050.00 ft x 122.00 ft x 37.60 ft (normal load)
327.68 m / 320.04 m x 37.19 m x 11.46 m

Armament:
12 - 16.00" / 406 mm guns (4x3 guns), 2,700.00lbs / 1,224.70kg shells, 1941 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
20 - 5.00" / 127 mm guns (10x2 guns), 55.00lbs / 24.95kg shells, 1941 Model
Dual purpose guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, all amidships, 4 raised mounts - superfiring
88 - 1.57" / 40.0 mm guns (22x4 guns), 1.95lbs / 0.88kg shells, 1941 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, 18 raised mounts
38 - 0.79" / 20.0 mm guns in single mounts, 0.24lbs / 0.11kg shells, 1941 Model
Machine guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 33,681 lbs / 15,277 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 130

Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 17.0" / 432 mm 613.20 ft / 186.90 m 13.25 ft / 4.04 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 90 % of normal length

- Torpedo Bulkhead:
3.00" / 76 mm 613.20 ft / 186.90 m 34.71 ft / 10.58 m

- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 17.0" / 432 mm 10.0" / 254 mm 17.5" / 445 mm
2nd: 2.00" / 51 mm 1.00" / 25 mm 2.00" / 51 mm
3rd: 1.00" / 25 mm 0.50" / 13 mm -
4th: 0.50" / 13 mm - -

- Armour deck: 6.50" / 165 mm, Conning tower: 18.00" / 457 mm

Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 4 shafts, 284,010 shp / 211,871 Kw = 33.00 kts
Range 12,000nm at 15.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 8,924 tons

Complement:
2,309 - 3,002

Cost:
£38.084 million / $152.335 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 3,251 tons, 4.2 %
Armour: 26,085 tons, 33.9 %
- Belts: 5,958 tons, 7.7 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 2,363 tons, 3.1 %
- Armament: 6,222 tons, 8.1 %
- Armour Deck: 10,841 tons, 14.1 %
- Conning Tower: 701 tons, 0.9 %
Machinery: 7,506 tons, 9.8 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 30,873 tons, 40.1 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 8,953 tons, 11.6 %
Miscellaneous weights: 260 tons, 0.3 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
111,801 lbs / 50,712 Kg = 54.6 x 16.0 " / 406 mm shells or 18.1 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.10
Metacentric height 8.1 ft / 2.5 m
Roll period: 18.0 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 61 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.76
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.22

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.559
Length to Beam Ratio: 8.61 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 32.40 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 47 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 22.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 7.80 ft / 2.38 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 42.70 ft / 13.01 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 27.00 ft / 8.23 m
- Mid (50 %): 24.00 ft / 7.32 m
- Quarterdeck (22 %): 24.00 ft / 7.32 m
- Stern: 24.00 ft / 7.32 m
- Average freeboard: 26.31 ft / 8.02 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 78.7 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 184.2 %
Waterplane Area: 90,158 Square feet or 8,376 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 114 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 243 lbs/sq ft or 1,188 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.99
- Longitudinal: 1.01
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

A Maximum Battleship design, the biggest capable of transiting the Mexican locks. The cruiser style stern design with the hanger is because of concern over muzzle blast effects on exposed aircraft, as is the lack of light AA, a consideration which would probably change in wartime. She uses the still in development 6" DP mount. Speed is increased over Montana, but not to the extent of the other designs. I think there would be pressure to move towards at least 30kts based on foreign developments. I'd also need larger slips and drydocks, 5.5 or 6.

USS Kansas, United States Battleship laid down 1941

Displacement:
90,001 t light; 94,764 t standard; 100,517 t normal; 105,120 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
1,147.19 ft / 1,120.00 ft x 130.00 ft (Bulges 138.00 ft) x 38.00 ft (normal load)
349.66 m / 341.38 m x 39.62 m (Bulges 42.06 m) x 11.58 m

Armament:
12 - 18.00" / 457 mm guns (4x3 guns), 3,850.00lbs / 1,746.33kg shells, 1941 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
20 - 6.00" / 152 mm guns (10x2 guns), 130.00lbs / 58.97kg shells, 1941 Model
Dual purpose guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, all amidships, 4 raised mounts - superfiring
96 - 1.57" / 40.0 mm guns (24x4 guns), 1.95lbs / 0.88kg shells, 1941 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, 14 raised mounts
Weight of broadside 48,987 lbs / 22,220 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 100

Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 18.0" / 457 mm 571.76 ft / 174.27 m 13.68 ft / 4.17 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 79 % of normal length

- Torpedo Bulkhead and Bulges:
3.00" / 76 mm 571.76 ft / 174.27 m 35.82 ft / 10.92 m

- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 18.0" / 457 mm 12.0" / 305 mm 18.0" / 457 mm
2nd: 6.50" / 165 mm 4.00" / 102 mm 5.00" / 127 mm
3rd: 1.00" / 25 mm 1.00" / 25 mm -

- Armour deck: 9.00" / 229 mm, Conning tower: 18.00" / 457 mm

Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 4 shafts, 210,674 shp / 157,163 Kw = 30.00 kts
Range 12,000nm at 15.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 10,356 tons

Complement:
2,822 - 3,669

Cost:
£48.528 million / $194.112 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 4,667 tons, 4.6 %
Armour: 36,778 tons, 36.6 %
- Belts: 6,241 tons, 6.2 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 2,273 tons, 2.3 %
- Armament: 8,965 tons, 8.9 %
- Armour Deck: 18,461 tons, 18.4 %
- Conning Tower: 838 tons, 0.8 %
Machinery: 5,567 tons, 5.5 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 42,488 tons, 42.3 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 10,516 tons, 10.5 %
Miscellaneous weights: 500 tons, 0.5 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
184,116 lbs / 83,513 Kg = 63.1 x 18.0 " / 457 mm shells or 34.2 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.09
Metacentric height 8.7 ft / 2.7 m
Roll period: 19.6 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 74 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.94
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.48

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
and transom stern
Block coefficient: 0.599
Length to Beam Ratio: 8.12 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 38.41 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 42 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 22.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 7.80 ft / 2.38 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 48.00 ft / 14.63 m
- Forecastle (26 %): 32.00 ft / 9.75 m
- Mid (50 %): 29.00 ft / 8.84 m
- Quarterdeck (23 %): 29.00 ft / 8.84 m
- Stern: 29.00 ft / 8.84 m
- Average freeboard: 31.84 ft / 9.70 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 64.8 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 222.2 %
Waterplane Area: 110,880 Square feet or 10,301 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 117 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 274 lbs/sq ft or 1,339 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.98
- Longitudinal: 1.14
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily