WesWorld

The initial Atlantean fleet deployment didn't show it so I've since edited it to reflect that, so it was easy enough to miss.

This mutiny piece..... I´m not sure what to think about it.

While the general story hook is well rpepared and written I find it odd that the sailing squadron so easily can be made out and surrounded by such a clearly superior force. It´s just too easy and to some degree I find it unrealistic. Why wouldn´t the Atlanteans for instance allow this force to continue to support the political party that most likely will end the war asap once in charge?

I also don´t understand why the commander in charge agrees to those terms of internment. With their mutiny these crews just severly weakened the loyalists navy and could provide important support to the congressional side. However, with their internment this advantage is gone. There is no further support for the Congress.

In fact, they have opened their home countrys defense to the enemy. A large chuck of the countries defense forces are now out of the game and so Peru might be doomed if their enemies which to forces them into total surrender. Would a much honorable commander of Peruvian forces allow this to happen?

I´m pretty sure you guys worked this out to save these ships from destruction for a future player BUT to me the whole piece doesn´t sound right.

I rather hurriedly typed this section up, so I understand your comments, and we may have to make a few changes. "Internment" was perhaps the wrong word for what I intended to communicate. Let me see if I can do better.

The Allies want, among other things, to prevent another incident like the bombardment of Trujillo. The concern when the Peruvian ships sailed was that they were on another bombardment mission, and therefore they were intercepted in order to more carefully ascertain their intentions, and sink them if necessary. The Chileans, for their part, were probably having a very big internal debate between the parties of "Let's sink them anyway" and "Make them surrender to us!" The Allies basically decided to offer the Peruvians sanctuary at Guayaquil as a sort of "screening process" and they intend for it to be temporary.

Remember from previous posts that Iberia is pretty much backing the Congressionalists. It's unlikely those ships will be stuck in Guayaquil for very long. Commodore Rufino probably recognizes this, and spending a few days or weeks getting the new fleet sorted out in a friendly Iberian port would probably be preferable to getting sunk at sea.

Well, I don´t know what exactly you guys are up for but from what I read yet this part, this mutiny and follow-on action probably is a very important point in time. I got this gut feeling immediately when reading that news bit and I sense some implication you may not have thought about that make this piece sound "wrong" to some degree.

I will try to explain what I mean a bit later as I currently have some family things to do first.

Okay then. Baby fed and her momy reading - guess I can try to bring to paper what was up my sleeves the whole day. ;o)

Disclaimer: This post is not meant to step on somebody´s toes. I´m just musing about what I know about this story arc and how I read it. So please forgive my ignorance.

The whole mutiny stuff is okay to me, I take it as a given. Up until the point where the force sails nothing happened that I find not fitting the picture. My difficulties start when the enemy shows up. At this point things could have gone different ways, considering you wanted to safe a large chunk of those ships for a later gamer.

As you put it, the one in charge of the Peruvian forces is asked to accept either interment or destruction in face of a superior enemy force. He is left without option and smothly things are solved. To me, this is too easy and not considering other options or difficulties such decision brings.

Two perspectives - technical/strategical and personal - have to be considered, I think.

From a technical point of view the Chilenean force includes about all major combatants that navy can come up with (I can not find a list which vessel belongs to which unit so I focus on those ships named). How realistic is that? None of these units is needed/deployed elsewhere? They are all incidentally just right here? No diversion of force? Hard to believe. And still, with odds 2:1 in favor of the Chileans regarding numbers things are not too bad for the Peruvians. Numbers don´t tell the whole storyx. The Latorres are slower than their own ships and the Oyamas no match. With their own screen of 8 fleet destroyers (lacking names I suppose those 2000 ton vessels with four 15cm guns are around - the only class of eight) there are many options left for the one in charge of the Peruvian fleet - many of which would have been more realistic or interesting than what happens next: The Atlanteans appear on the scene with two full grown BBs and their screen. Now we really have overkill - and again I need to ask: how could they all be right there? The mutiny was an instant thing I assume. They couldn´t know about it, prepare for the Peruvians to come along. All coincident? Too much for my liking. Even with spies in the city that radio what happens the timeframe given is too short for any serious reaction.

And still ... there would have been options so close to the coast for a fleet in fighting order, with guns the enemy has to respect and eight fleet destroyers with their load of torpedos. But now something more important kicks in: the mind set of those involved. Here I probably have the biggest problems to understand what is going on.

If we look at the Peruvians once they left harbor, what do we find? Men that just showed much determination to do what they think is right. They risked their lifes by starting a mutiny for which all of them could be hung. They were shot at, probably lost comrades (the text doesn´t say), returned fire and escaped without much harm. These men are confident in their skills (even though her effectiveness in combat may have suffered due to the loss of some experienced officers and men), confident in that the congressional side needs their support. They are on morale high ground, knowing that with their action the party that will end the war asap gets important support - and ending the war is what will save their families and friends, avoid their homes being destroyed. The degree of determination might differ but I see not how things could be different. It´s a known phenomenon.

Now these men meet a superior force and see their leading man give up without much resistance. Wow. How will Rufino sell this to his people, those who trust in him? I think they won´t buy it. So either a second mutiny is what we will see next or Rufino will never decide the way he did - knowing that this might cost lives, lives of his but not only his men. He also knows that interment will rob the Congress of the badly needed support he was supposed to bring. The internment of his force might lengthen the war or, probably worse, allow Perus enemies to enter the now open gates. There isn´t much protection for the sea side towns left once his force is out of the game. What does that mean to him and those he wants to support? He is against Diaz but he clearly loves his country.

What if he decides to refuse but declares he will not open fire on the others? Will they really fire at him or just shadow his way? The Chileneans might open fire but from a tactical point of view he is in a situation to deal with them - his force is faster, his escorts can lay a smokescreen, relieve some strain off his BBs by riding a torpedo attack, he can radio for areal cover etc. His force might suffer damage or a loss but so will the Chileneans. Will they really risk that, just to make a point which probably is pointless once the congressional side wins and ends the war - for which they need this Peruvian fleet? What about the Atlanteans? Will they open fire? Have they suffered enough to accept dishonor in firing on somebody who declared he will not fight back? Hardly. This war has not cost them enough to loose face to the world in such manner. What happens if he sails on - either from the beginning or post-negotiations (no real negotiations, more some dictate by the allies)?

Rufino is not a lucky man, that´s for sure. Faced with such situation it would have been nice to read how he is torn between those options. Seeing him accept internment so easily simply sounds wrong. He might even be seen as a traitor later... Would a person with his mind set accept this judgement?

Back to OOC hindsight, knowing you will safe most of Perus most modern stuff for later. The situation above has many facets you could have used which would have been less unrealistic. To me the first and most serious problem with the story is the line up of that "overkill force". It is meant to explain why the Peruvians give up but it is unlikely to happen and still leaves many un-used options. Options that range from "nothing happens but shadowing" to "big gun duel" and still serve your purpose. With a smaller line-up a fight could have been scripted where most of the Peruvians survive. Probably not without harm and scars but still. For the sake of a good running battle against Chileans creme de la creme you could have sacrifised one or two DDs and save the rest. Still enough for a future gamer who would then have gained some characters and stuff for his own stories. The surviving units could then be kept repairing damage in harbor or used for some side stories about patrols without having them suffor more damage or losses.

Guess I could go on and beat a dead horse but you most likely have got my point already: It was too easy and not realistic, IMHO. And sadly you missed many chances for more (interesting) stories.

But of course I could be completely wrong and you have things prepared I cannot even dream of. ;o)

Hm, I guess I should have stuck with my original outline where the fleets didn't meet at all. I definitely understand what you're saying, and I'm going have to give this more thought and a rewrite.

Regarding your comments about the concentration of force - I took it as a given that the Chileans would be running past Callao every few days at the very least in "blockade"; and with the Peruvians having two remaining battleships, I really have no reason not to keep the four ships of Battle Force together. Yes, the Chileans will wear out their turbines by pacing back and forth, but they can't sit in the fleet anchorage at Talcahuano, 1,700 miles from the action, either.

Glad you didn´t take my notes as an insult. :o)

For a blockade you cannot concentrate forces too much - otherwise too many vessels will escape you. Also, some turn arounds will be organized. When one force is re-fueling or undergoing harbor maintenance (nothing serious covered by the rules) the other stays at sea etc. It is very, very unlikely the whole force will be at sea at once. Never happened during the ABS war too, btw. ;o)

I´m curious to hear to what conclusion you come up with once you´ve given it more thought....

A blockade here would be similar to the "Distant blockade" concept the RN followed during the Great War; There's no need to loiter off a hostile coastline with your heavy units, when geography dictates where the Peruvians will basically be going, should they chose to go anywhere; To have any real impact, Peru is forced to head north along the coast towards Panama to support attacks or conduct raiding on the Columbian coastline.

While in theory, units of the Peruvian Navy could attempt to either round the Cape, or even try a reverse Graf Spee and go across the Pacific, around Africa, and show up in the Caribbean....but does Peru have the logistics to support that long of a cruise? And even if they do, there are several chokepoints they'd have to traverse and be seen doing so, giving ample warning of the attempt.

Commerce raiding seems less of a concern to me than what I've seen comments about; Unlike the German raiders preying on the copious amounts of British marine traffic around the world, is there enough soley Columbian traffic worldwide to make a distant raiding cruise worthwhile? Assuming the Peruvian loyalists are at all rational, attacking any non-colombian traffic will only bring down the Fist of an Angry God upon them. That means local raiding only, which like any purely military cruise, means sailing north into an area with natural geographic boundries set by the coastlines.

In regards to the Mutiny, I don't view the events as played to be quite that unreasonable. This isn't a replay of Catapult, with the Peruvians being given humiliating terms at the barrel of a gun of what was a few days ago their ally. The eventual terms worked out was for the Peruvian ships to be interned in Iberia, which is a noncombatant in this conflict, as well as an otherwise direct ally of Peru; the Chileans did not demand to take the Peruvian ships back to a Chilean or Lantean port for internment. And to boot, it's strictly stated as a temporary internment pending diplomatic recognition of the Congressional faction in Peru. Rufino's decision is one that takes the endgame as paramount; recognition of the Congressionals as the legitimate government of Peru over the warmongering Presidente. Once this is accomplished, it stands to reason the temporary internment has a better than even chance of being ended, and allowing him to return with his ships and crew to Trujillo with news of inernational recognition and possibly support of the Congressionalist faction, surely a much better endgame than an unwanted and ultimately pointless confrontation with the Chilean and Lantean navies. Rufino may have been able to make a respectable showing in such an engagement, but what would he have accomplished to support the goals of the Congressionalists by doing so? A valiant battle against the enemy would give the President something else to crow about, and deny his forces the ability to further support the Congressionalists.

The concentration of heavy units isn't all that conspicuous; You have the two Battleships at Callao, and Rufino's Destroyer squadron shows up from...somewhere else, and that's essentially what mutinies. The other heavy units are elsewhere; Huascar is sunk, Grau is at another port. There's also a handful of other cruisers either at Callao that didn't participate, or located elsewhere. Regardless, Callao seems to be the Peruvian Navy's home port, so any dispersion would be to ports not neccesarily prepared to support those ships.

I somewhat concur with the rapid ease in which the Chilean and Lantean fleets converged on the Peruvians, but then again the allied Heavy units only have a limited number of targets to keep track and prepare to intercept; Less so with the Huascar's sinking, and the Grau presumably needing a few days to resupply before embarking on another sortie (And as mentioned, possibly at a port not prepared to do so). Assuming the Allied forces are chosing something similar to a Distant Blockade, and/or following a similar model of containment attempted during the Bismarck's OTL breakout, you don't waste your heavy ships doing the close-in patrols. Your other forces locate the target, and direct in the heavy units. In this case, finding the targets is all that much easier with Rufino's continual radio broadcasts to triangulate on.

You're right that the entire allied fleets would not likely be at sea at the same time, but this event does occur only a few days after the sinking of Huascar, and only a day (or less) after the Grau was spotted by the Argentinians (ergo, the Allies may or may not know she's put back into port yet, and be deployed in attempt to intercept her)

After Scapa and the sinking of the German fleet - which commander will ever accept "temporary interment" again?

I didn´t say it is completely off that the Chilenean and Atlantean units showed up somehow. Some part (parts?) of a blockade force surely would be close enough. But shwoing up in full force is highly unlikely. Some of them must have been on patrol for long and low on fuel etc. when the message arrives the Grau is out there as is this BB fleet. I doubt all of them will haven enough fuel for a hunt right away. And reaction time here is remarkable short.

I have to admit, I don´t understand your comment regarding Bismarck's OTL breakout - how do these actions compare? Bismarck was in no way immediately run down after leaving port. In fact SHE can into a single cruiser, then a second and it took the largest navy in the world quite some time before they had a heavy force nearby - and that one wasn´t even outnumbering the Germans. I think that´s a completely different set up.

I agree on the commerce raiding stuff.

Reguarding Scapa, the Germans were surrendering to an enemy, the Peruvians are surrendering to an allie (Iberia).

With reguards to Bismarck. Shes newer and has much better range than the Peruvian (ex-SAE) battlewagons not to mention a huge speed advantage. Its not surprising that the British had such a hard time finding him (her to us non-Germans!). Throw in radar and radio intercepts and I don't think its that difficult to find them, I do tend to agree however on the size of the fleet that meets them being optimisticly large.

I enjoyed the mutiny piece a lot but I must agree I found the ending flat.

Apart from every BB from miles around appearing by pure chance (ok I'll concede it could happen by coincidence) I somehow doubted the mutineers would agree to any kind of internment. They have just told the Marines to get lost, got out of harbour with a quick duel, rescued masses of political prisoners. Not the kind of guys who would turn round and say, "sure we'll sit out the war while you pound/ starve our country to death." Yet somehow I doubt they would fight a losing battle with certain loss either unless they knew they could cuase serious damage too. I can see also they would see Diaz and his cronies as the real enemy, not the Allied fleet, they might not wish to waste time fighting them, they want to fight Diaz and his loyal forces.

The more I think about it the more I sense this mutiny part is one of the most important pieces of your storyline. Reason why: This mutineers and their ships have become a symbol.

If Rufino gets through Congress will get important support - working for your final idea of a democratic Peru with a core fleet of relatively good vessels.

If the ships do not get through this might play into the hands of Diaz and albeit he lost important ships he could end up stronger than before. If I were his propaganda minister I´d use the whole thing like "Enemy agents have driven our sailors into mutiny, blending them and finally stealing their ships from them! Now our coast is defenseless and no doubt, the Chilenean puppetmasters and their congressional dolls will use that to starve our home country to death! We now must stand as one to save our beloved Peru...blabla...." No keeping in mind that common people have little chance to decide whats their source for news support from the streets for Diaz might increase.

Well, this is really interesting and tells you how difficult it is to deal with (or script) a civil war, especially if their is foreign interference....

After some further reflection, I think the truth of the matter needs to lie somewhere between what Hooman and ShinRa say. With that in mind, I'll be rewriting the ending of the Grand Mutiny. (Hopefully sometime today - parents are visiting town and want to do stuff.)

Heh, looking at the latest update, with the destruction of the Peruvian riverine antiques, I suppose (if there IS a Peru after this war and it's not just an appendage of Iberian Ecuador) Germany may have a market for some more of it's riverine gunboats.

Of course, the devil of the matter would be getting them TO that side of Peru...... After all, the Brazillians might well not allow them to cruise up the Amazon to Peru, and they're not going over the Andes!

Hey, Peru bought a lot of SAE stuff lately and there are some interesting and brand new gun boat designs available. That is, if there is a way to get them where needed.....

Heh, we can see a market opportunity, but can we get the goods to the market, that's the question. I suppose the Peruvians could build an S-0 at Iquitos and build whatever they like there.

Historically, the Peruvian government tried to get a railroad built to the head of navigation of the Amazon in the 1920s, but it never happened.

Yay riverine arms race!

[SIZE=1]*Quietly pulls an invisibility cloak over Bulgaria's buildup on the Danube...*[/SIZE]

I'm sure Brazil will do its best to thwart any plans by Peru to sail any ships up the Amazon, while Colombia will do its best to ensure it maintains the lead it had even before the conflict.

Effectively Peru still has two small gunboats but I doubt they are in good enough shape to repair, not to mention their MG armament lacked suficient stoping power vs. other gunboats.

Once the conflict is over, who knows, Peru could be under an arms limitations treaty that would make it difficult for Germany or others to help with rearmament. The last decade has seen Peru become a perverbial dumping ground for arms and one could argue that Indian and SAE arms buildups are in part responcible for the latest in a long list of conflicts the Peru has initiated. Give a dictator weapons and he will play!

Quoted

Originally posted by thesmilingassassin
The last decade has seen Peru become a perverbial dumping ground for arms and one could argue that Indian and SAE arms buildups are in part responcible for the latest in a long list of conflicts the Peru has initiated.

Yeah, great! Isn´t it? ;o)

(Standing ready to arm Peru for the next one, and the next, and the one thereafter too....)

In fairness, it's only recently that Peru became so darned unreasonablelike, and I'm hoping it was just those growing-up-blues...