WesWorld

Quoted

Originally posted by BruceDuncan

Production of the weapon is costly and time consuming in the extreme, and the weapon, once emplaced, it is very vulnerable to counter-battery fire, to air attack, or to counter-attack.

That's why the usefulness of such a vehicle is very limited...

Quoted

Originally posted by BruceDuncan

Its development and deployment unfortunately confirm existing preconceptions of China's intent to expand its borders by military means. All the smooth words spoken in Beijing cannot obscure the intent of Chinese policy.

Really ???? I ask me ... if germany is a peace loving country ... why they need ~ 40 IDs, 6 GjDs, 10 PDs ???? A really impressive army with a huge offensive component !!!!

By the way more than 200 Assault Guns and over 500 Type IV Tanks are surely more dangerous than 5 of the Zhu mortars

Quoted

Originally posted by parador
Really ???? I ask me ... if germany is a peace loving country ... why they need ~ 40 IDs, 6 GjDs, 10 PDs ???? A really impressive army with a huge offensive component !!!!

Bad example. Germany has not waged war against their neighbors for control of some useless sandbars; nor have they taken their economy to a war footing to ensure they win that; nor have they used diplomatic rhetoric to bully their neighbors (at least not since Hrolf was here and talking about the Sudeten issue).

Quoted

Originally posted by parador


Really ???? I ask me ... if germany is a peace loving country ... why they need ~ 40 IDs, 6 GjDs, 10 PDs ???? A really impressive army with a huge offensive component !!!!

But Germany is not involved in a war; China is.

Quoted

China could lent or sell the weapon to other countries

No doubt countries of that are up to no good...
*CoughNewSwitserlandCough*
*CoughWrongUniveseCough*
*CoughMeantToSayMexicoCough*

Quoted

if germany is a peace loving country ... why they need ~ 40 IDs, 6 GjDs, 10 PDs ????

Germany is most definitely a peace loving country, but it is a huge task to maintain the peace that exists so for that a big army is needed.

Quoted

Germany has not waged war against their neighbors for control of some useless sandbars

... but they did fight with the British and French over the control of a few worthless meters of useless shell-cratered muddy Belgian fields...

Quoted

Originally posted by Rooijen10

... but they did fight with the British and French over the control of a few worthless meters of useless shell-cratered muddy Belgian fields...

A point of history outside the framework of the game. And, a lesson that Germany has taken to heart.

If we choose to reach back into the mists of time, one can find sufficient excuse to justify anything anyone might wish.

Quoted

A point of history outside the framework of the game.

True, but it is still part of the past.

Quoted

And, a lesson that Germany has taken to heart.

Exactly. Look where it got the Germans in the end, so that makes me wonder where China will end up with all that skirmishing over those useless sandbars. Apparently they haven't read any books about the Great War.

RF General Staff review news, recall that the 122mm guns A-19 equipping their Fortified Regions have over twice the range and many times the firing rate of China's new siege mortars, and conclude that the new Chinese achievement, though no doubt a marvel of the gunmaker's art, poses minimal threat to Russia's system of border fortifications.

Quoted

Originally posted by parador
In March 1938 the Chengtu Arsenal made a proposal for a super-heavy howitzer to attack border forts. Their initial concept was for a weapon that would be transported
by several tracked vehicles and assembled on site, but the lengthy preparation time drove them to change it to a self-propelled weapon in January 1939. Extensive
driving trials took place in 1939 and 1940 using the chinese medium tank prototypes and a scale model to investigate the extremely high ground pressure and
steering of such an enormous vehicle. Firing trials took place in June 1940.The full-scale driving trials were held at the Mukden Arsenal in Manchuria in May 1940.
General Zhu Laoshi of the Artillery was involved in the development, from whom the huge weapon gained its nickname.


The benefits of such a vehicle is of course another side. But it shows the great engineering skills of the chinese industry.


A first batch of 5 vehicles was built till the end of 1940.



[size=1]Zhu mortar at testing site[/size]

Quoted

Originally posted by BruceDuncan

Quoted

Originally posted by Rooijen10

... but they did fight with the British and French over the control of a few worthless meters of useless shell-cratered muddy Belgian fields...

A point of history outside the framework of the game. And, a lesson that Germany has taken to heart.

If we choose to reach back into the mists of time, one can find sufficient excuse to justify anything anyone might wish.

I'd argue that WWI is well within the framework of the game; the game started based around an ersatz Washington Treaty, which spawned right out of WWI. And we even had a bunch of folks write up details of the changes to the Great War in WW because it was relevant to the current game.

In short, it's not "the mists of time" for folks in the 1940s, and isn't something to just be brushed aside.

That's just my opinion, of course.

Quoted

Originally posted by ShinRa_Inc

I'd argue that WWI is well within the framework of the game; the game started based around an ersatz Washington Treaty, which spawned right out of WWI. And we even had a bunch of folks write up details of the changes to the Great War in WW because it was relevant to the current game.

In short, it's not "the mists of time" for folks in the 1940s, and isn't something to just be brushed aside.

That's just my opinion, of course.

Canada may choose to regard history as it wills; and it may choose to live in the past if that is its choice. But if Canada merely chooses to look to the past, it may miss the future.

Such is my opinion, for its small worth.

Quoted

Originally posted by BruceDuncan
Canada may choose to regard history as it wills; and it may choose to live in the past if that is its choice. But if Canada merely chooses to look to the past, it may miss the future.

Canada keeps tabs on all aspects of the time-space continuum, sir!

The President of the United States while publically remaining silent on the matter, is disturbed that such a weapon is being not only considered but produced in an apparent peace-loving country. Privately he feels justified in his decision to move to a 40/60 split on US armed forces with respect to the Pacific and Atlantic/Caribbean theatres.

Britain is mildly concerned that China has developed such a weapon for one sole purpose. Britain lacks massive forts in Hong Kong but certainly the Chief of the Imperial General Staff will be looking at options.

1) Building new and stronger forts
2) Increasing smaller defences to make more strongpoints
3) Adding more light bomber formations in Hong Kong
4) Giving all Far Eastern RAF bomber pilots and bomb aimers ID drawings of the massive Zhu mortar.
5) Sending more heavy artillery to Hong Kong for counter-battery use (5.5in field guns and 7.2in howitzers)

The Zhu mortar will need emplacments and a supply train, the RoF is low and certainly the whole battery of mortar plus resupply trucks etc etc will make a big target close to the border. The RAF will have a field day.

Indeed. Both Russia's strike aircraft pilots and Russian artillerymen drool visibly in anticipation of having such juicy targets.

Quoted

The Zhu mortar will need emplacments and a supply train, the RoF is low and certainly the whole battery of mortar plus resupply trucks etc etc will make a big target close to the border. The RAF will have a field day.

Quoted

Originally posted by Hood
The Zhu mortar will need emplacments and a supply train, the RoF is low and certainly the whole battery of mortar plus resupply trucks etc etc will make a big target close to the border. The RAF will have a field day.

From a strategic point of view I would not be so off-hand regarding China's growing abilities. Hong Kong is extremely vulnerable to Chinese attack; there are no supporting British bases closer than Singapore or Borneo at best. A unified and moderately will equipped China can take Hong Kong any time it wants to, if it is willing to pay the price .

The risks are high. Any attack on British possessions in China (or elsewhere for that matter) will likely provoke a response by SAER. With its SAER allies Britain can - unless the other SATSUMA powers respond - strangle Chinese trade and cause havoc in China's coastal cities. But even with its allies Britain cannot hope to 'win' a land war with China; at best would be a draw with status quo ante bellum.

As for counting on the RAF to keep Chinese forces at arms length, Hong Kong historically has only one airport at this point in time - Kai Tak - and it was not overly large. Even with enlargements, it represents a single point failure; interdict its runways and Hong Kong is defenseless. It can hold but a limited number of aircraft no matter how many reinforcements are sent there. To disperse the RAF's strength would require construction of additional airstrips within the New Territories, which would, in turn, also be vulnerable to Chinese attack.

So the defense of Hong Kong truly lies in the realm of diplomacy and the ability of Britain to keep SAER committed to defense of all European territories in the eastern regions. The appearance of the Zhu mortar suggests that either China has moved closer to accepting the risk of war with Britain and its allies, or that China suspects that the SAER front may have fractured. Otherwise construction of such massive weapons make little sense.

11 December:
After a long and intensive testing phase, the serial production of the Liébáo II begins. Only the two versions C & D are fabricated.
Three prototypes of the version E were built and should be thoroughly tested till the end of March 1941.

While trying to catch up, I came across this, and even after the fact felt I should offer some comments to illuminate some things.

Quoted

Originally posted by Brockpaine

Quoted

Originally posted by BruceDuncan
What the SAE does not have the right to do is use its warships to assure the delivery of contraband of war to a combatant nation; that is a clear breach of neutrality and contrary to the Law of Nations.

This was the point where the Dutch really pushed the bounds of neutrality during the South American War. Per Kirk's statement, Dutch merchant ships delivered oil to the SAE, under the direct escort of Dutch warships, through SAE territorial waters. While not specifically listed in the London Declaration, I would interpret oil as contraband of war - and so from my perspective, the Dutch blatantly acted in an un-neutral behavior during the South American War.

The observation is generally correct. The Dutch do not however consider oil contraband. Beyond that, there was this OOC line where the the player's didn't want additional people in their war, yet how I set up the Dutch attitude, they wanted to pile in on the SAE side. So I drew a thin veneer of deniability over their actions.

One of the tricky aspects of the “Dutch” is to remember that the United Kingdoms of the Netherlands is a group entity, with 3 soveriegn nations represented on the League of Nations – The Kingdom of the Netherlands, the Kingdom of Belgium, and the Kingdom of the Kongo. The Kingdom of the Netherlands did declare nuetrality, the Kongo never did. The transfer of “lend lease” was in Matadi, Kongo, a simple paper work arrangement can keep the Kingdom of the Netherland's deniability.

However, from the Dutch point of view, they expected the South Americans would not want to give them an excuse- which is why the convoys were escorted...so that any “incident” would clearly involve Dutch warships and be an excuse for a DOW. After all, it was one occaision they were on the same side as Bahrat. Further, it may well trigger AANM (though Italy being on the same side as SAE seemed unlikely).

Quoted

Originally posted by TheCanadian

Quoted

The Dutch helped in Africa by taking over responsibility for some things the RSAA would otherwise be in charge of. So troops were freed and could be send to South America. In effect, the Dutch were neither directly involved in the fighting nor did they send contraband.

Technically however they did aid you by allowing the SAE to transfer forces, and the Brazilians could have responded by politely asking the Dutch embassy to leave as well as seizing Dutch assets in Brazil. There would also be enough of a justification for a seizure of Surinam, if the Brazilians wanted to draw the Dutch into the war as well. None of this happened mainly because there was no active Brazilian player at the time.

Technically, it was the Kingdom of the Kongo which lent troops to the SAE, the Dutch backfilled the Kongo-ese. Dutch Guiana / Suriname is a territory of the Kingdom of the Netherlands, and which had been reinforced at that point. There is a railroad on the Dutch side, which I believe I specified has forts a couple spots. There was nothing providing access on the Brazilian side. It's a 150 miles through the mountains and hills to the coastal plain where the bulk of the Dutch forces were. An invasion through the tropical mountains with no supply route would be difficult to project sufficient force and subject to being strung out and cut up. Plus in a pinch I figured I could scream for Iberian reinforcements. So I wasn't too worried about an invasion of Suriname.

It is good to understand the rationale behind historical Dutch decisions. However, one of the things that emerged from the discussions on the question of neutral rights and neutral responsibilities was a better understanding of what it means - in international law - to be neutral.

Some past practices - dating to the South American War - overstepped the bounds of neutrality but provoked no response from any party. It may be unwise to presume that a similar situation would arise in the future, as nations make their determinations of policy on the circumstances prevailing at the time of decision.

Quoted

Originally posted by BruceDuncan
It may be unwise to presume that a similar situation would arise in the future, as nations make their determinations of policy on the circumstances prevailing at the time of decision.

That matter is why I thought I should clarify, since the Dutch were being pointed to. They simply aren't a great example for others, because of the additional considerations.

16th December:

THE ASIA EXPRESS:

The Asia Express is an express train built and operated by the South Manchuria Railway. The trains reached a top speed of 134 kilometres per
hour (83 mph). It serve as a symbol of technology and modernism in the Chinese Empire.

Encased in an aerodynamic shell, the Asia Express runs from Dairen to Shinkyo. It features air conditioning, on-board refrigerators, and an
unusual glass observation deck resembling a salon complete with leather chairs and bookshelves.


[size=1]The locomotive is leaving the production plant[/size]

23th December:

The chinese empire and the Phillippines decide on a preliminary ceasefire, which comes into force at midnight. The chinese foreign minister travels to Manila to discuss the possibilities of a peace treaty with the government of the Phillippines.