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41

Friday, August 26th 2011, 7:32am

A theoretical repeat of the Zephir class. A 100mm-armed version is also proposed.

Quoted

[SIZE=3]Zephir II, French Sloop laid down 1942[/SIZE]

Displacement:
1,150 t light; 1,240 t standard; 1,530 t normal; 1,762 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
328.64 ft / 318.24 ft x 33.79 ft x 10.01 ft (normal load)
100.17 m / 97.00 m x 10.30 m x 3.05 m

Armament:
6 - 4.72" / 120 mm guns (3x2 guns), 52.72lbs / 23.92kg shells, 1942 Model
Dual purpose guns in deck mounts with hoists
on centreline ends, majority forward, 1 raised mount - superfiring
4 - 1.57" / 40.0 mm guns (1x4 guns), 1.95lbs / 0.89kg shells, 1942 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in a deck mount with hoist
on centreline aft, all raised guns - superfiring
8 - 1.57" / 40.0 mm guns (4x2 guns), 1.95lbs / 0.89kg shells, 1942 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, evenly spread
4 - 0.55" / 14.0 mm guns in single mounts, 0.08lbs / 0.04kg shells, 1942 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 340 lbs / 154 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 300
4 - 21.7" / 550 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 0.98" / 25 mm 0.20" / 5 mm -
2nd: 0.98" / 25 mm 0.20" / 5 mm -
3rd: 0.98" / 25 mm 0.20" / 5 mm -

- Conning tower: 1.18" / 30 mm

Machinery:
Diesel Internal combustion motors,
Geared drive, 2 shafts, 9,987 shp / 7,451 Kw = 23.55 kts
Range 4,750nm at 18.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 523 tons

Complement:
122 - 159

Cost:
£0.716 million / $2.863 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 43 tons, 2.8 %
Armour: 16 tons, 1.0 %
- Belts: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 12 tons, 0.8 %
- Armour Deck: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Conning Tower: 3 tons, 0.2 %
Machinery: 261 tons, 17.1 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 716 tons, 46.8 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 380 tons, 24.8 %
Miscellaneous weights: 115 tons, 7.5 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
2,463 lbs / 1,117 Kg = 46.7 x 4.7 " / 120 mm shells or 0.9 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.14
Metacentric height 1.3 ft / 0.4 m
Roll period: 12.6 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.66
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.52

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise forward of midbreak
Block coefficient: 0.498
Length to Beam Ratio: 9.42 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 17.84 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 55 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 46
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 25.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 22.31 ft / 6.80 m
- Forecastle (25 %): 17.06 ft / 5.20 m
- Mid (50 %): 17.06 ft / 5.20 m (8.86 ft / 2.70 m aft of break)
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 8.86 ft / 2.70 m
- Stern: 10.17 ft / 3.10 m
- Average freeboard: 13.58 ft / 4.14 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 87.6 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 99.7 %
Waterplane Area: 7,150 Square feet or 664 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 154 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 57 lbs/sq ft or 276 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.90
- Longitudinal: 2.54
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Excellent seaboat, comfortable, can fire her guns in the heaviest weather

42

Friday, August 26th 2011, 4:02pm

Overall the design looks good on its technical merits - the only technical point that looks out of place is the "14mm 1942 Model Breech loading guns in deck mounts". I presume these would be some species of antiaircraft or machinegun.

Tactically I am unsure about the design. The miscellaneous weight implies an AS outfit of unspecified size - which would make sense for a ocean escort. The inclusion of four torpedo tubes strikes me as unusual, given the relatively slow speed of the ship - @24 knots.

What is French doctrine for the use of such ships? Is this meant to be a 'high-end' vessel of a 'high/low' mix of escort types?

43

Friday, August 26th 2011, 4:20pm

Quoted

Originally posted by BruceDuncan
Overall the design looks good on its technical merits - the only technical point that looks out of place is the "14mm 1942 Model Breech loading guns in deck mounts". I presume these would be some species of antiaircraft or machinegun.

That'd be an oopsie - it ought to be an MG.

Quoted

Originally posted by BruceDuncan
Tactically I am unsure about the design. The miscellaneous weight implies an AS outfit of unspecified size - which would make sense for a ocean escort. The inclusion of four torpedo tubes strikes me as unusual, given the relatively slow speed of the ship - @24 knots.

What is French doctrine for the use of such ships? Is this meant to be a 'high-end' vessel of a 'high/low' mix of escort types?

Its role is probably more in line with the colonial gunboats - the Zephirs are currently deployed as the main coast defense and patrol units in Africa, and the torpedoes are a leftover from that design. In wartime they would be used as an open-ocean escort, however. (Current French design doctrine de-emphasizes the construction of general escorts at the moment due to a destroyer shortage and the mass retirement of older ships.)

44

Friday, August 26th 2011, 4:45pm

Thank you for the information.

I suppose it can be considered a benefit for Germany that it does not have overseas colonies demanding patrol vessels. They are, at best, a compromise, and, I think, little more than a tripwire in the face of any serious naval incursion. But to maintain order and show the flag I suppose they have value besides their intrinsic naval value.

45

Friday, August 26th 2011, 4:48pm

I prefer destroyer squadrons myself. :P

46

Sunday, August 28th 2011, 8:38am

A mercantile conversion for carrying vehicles and cargo. This vessel carries several smaller landing craft (EDA-55 mechanized landing craft and EA-13 infantry landing craft) in modified lifeboat davits. Cranes are able to unload cargo from the holds, or amphibious vehicles may disembark into the water via the unloading ramp.

Quoted

[SIZE=3]Montebello, French Navire de débarquement de véhicules laid down 1935[/SIZE]

Displacement:
5,275 t light; 5,491 t standard; 8,138 t normal; 10,255 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
463.66 ft / 459.32 ft x 52.49 ft x 19.69 ft (normal load)
141.32 m / 140.00 m x 16.00 m x 6.00 m

Armament:
4 - 3.94" / 100 mm guns in single mounts, 30.51lbs / 13.84kg shells, 1935 Model
Dual purpose guns in deck mounts
on centreline ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
16 - 1.57" / 40.0 mm guns (4x4 guns), 1.95lbs / 0.89kg shells, 1935 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts
on side, all amidships, all raised mounts - superfiring
Weight of broadside 153 lbs / 70 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 550

Machinery:
Diesel Internal combustion motors,
Geared drive, 1 shaft, 6,043 shp / 4,508 Kw = 16.00 kts
Range 25,000nm at 15.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 4,764 tons

Complement:
427 - 556

Cost:
£1.144 million / $4.577 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 19 tons, 0.2 %
Machinery: 172 tons, 2.1 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 2,035 tons, 25.0 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2,863 tons, 35.2 %
Miscellaneous weights: 3,050 tons, 37.5 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
16,421 lbs / 7,449 Kg = 538.2 x 3.9 " / 100 mm shells or 2.9 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.10
Metacentric height 2.3 ft / 0.7 m
Roll period: 14.6 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 51 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.03
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.83

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.600
Length to Beam Ratio: 8.75 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 21.43 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 31 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 28
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 10.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 24.61 ft / 7.50 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 19.69 ft / 6.00 m
- Mid (50 %): 14.76 ft / 4.50 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 14.76 ft / 4.50 m
- Stern: 14.76 ft / 4.50 m
- Average freeboard: 16.88 ft / 5.15 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 51.0 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 122.4 %
Waterplane Area: 17,251 Square feet or 1,603 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 229 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 73 lbs/sq ft or 355 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.99
- Longitudinal: 1.35
- Overall: 1.02
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Excellent seaboat, comfortable, can fire her guns in the heaviest weather

Breakdown of Miscellaneous Weights:
- 550 tons for vehicles (including tanks, trucks, armoured cars, etc)
- 300 tons for four large cranes (75t each)
- 50 tons for disembarkment ramp
- 220 tons for 4x EDA-55 vehicle landing craft
- 52 tons for 4x EA-13 landing craft
- 1,200 tons for six hundred troops
- 100 tons for vehicle fuel, ammo, etc
- 100 tons for vehicle repair shop
- 50 tons for shipboard electronics, communications, command, and control gear
- 428 tons for cargo

Notes:
- 2439 tons of deep-stowed cargo/ballast simmed as bunker fuel. Actual range is 12,000nm at 15.00 kts (bunker at max displacement = 2,325 tons)

47

Monday, August 29th 2011, 1:00am

A rather interesting design, capable of multiple uses. It offers far more flexibility than the existing Caiman class landing ships.

I think that the recently chronicled Transall amphibious carriers are a natural match for such a ship, but the provision of landing craft and cranes allows more conventional landings to be carried out. It should be a useful prototype - do you expect to build the design in quantity?

48

Monday, August 29th 2011, 1:42am

Quoted

Originally posted by BruceDuncan
A rather interesting design, capable of multiple uses. It offers far more flexibility than the existing Caiman class landing ships.

The Caimans are decent enough ships, I think - and they're available in quantity, which makes them quite useful regardless of their design. This design is penalized by not being capable of beaching, but makes up for that by useful range and seakeeping, as well as overall cargo capacity. I actually meant to add earlier that I was going to likely assign one to the Naval Construction Demi-Brigade as a peacetime base-ship: with the landing craft carried, it can put construction vehicles on an unprepared spot and support them while they carry out their projects.

Quoted

Originally posted by BruceDuncan
I think that the recently chronicled Transall amphibious carriers are a natural match for such a ship, but the provision of landing craft and cranes allows more conventional landings to be carried out. It should be a useful prototype - do you expect to build the design in quantity?

I've got funds to build two of them within the next year; I've tentatively penciled one into the budget for Q2, though I might bump it back. I'd prefer to have more, but that will depend on budgetary concerns, not lack of desire.

49

Monday, September 26th 2011, 9:45pm

[SIZE=3]EDA-200-type, French Landing Craft laid down 1942[/SIZE]

Displacement:
185 t light; 191 t standard; 200 t normal; 207 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
82.01 ft / 80.05 ft x 23.95 ft x 5.25 ft (normal load)
25.00 m / 24.40 m x 7.30 m x 1.60 m

Armament:
4 - 0.79" / 20.0 mm guns (2x2 guns), 0.24lbs / 0.11kg shells, 1942 Model
Machine guns in deck mounts
on centreline ends, evenly spread, all raised mounts
2 - 0.50" / 12.7 mm guns in single mounts, 0.06lbs / 0.03kg shells, 1942 Model
Machine guns in deck mounts
on side, all amidships
Weight of broadside 1 lbs / 0 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 2,500

Machinery:
Diesel Internal combustion motors,
Geared drive, 2 shafts, 133 shp / 99 Kw = 9.00 kts
Range 1,800nm at 9.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 16 tons

Complement:
26 - 34

Cost:
£0.045 million / $0.180 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 0 tons, 0.1 %
Machinery: 3 tons, 1.7 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 101 tons, 50.7 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 15 tons, 7.5 %
Miscellaneous weights: 80 tons, 40.0 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
494 lbs / 224 Kg = 2,021.9 x 0.8 " / 20 mm shells or 0.7 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.10
Metacentric height 0.7 ft / 0.2 m
Roll period: 12.0 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 56 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.00
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.52

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has raised forecastle
Block coefficient: 0.696
Length to Beam Ratio: 3.34 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 8.95 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 58 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 37
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 11.25 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 9.84 ft / 3.00 m
- Forecastle (25 %): 8.20 ft / 2.50 m (6.56 ft / 2.00 m aft of break)
- Mid (50 %): 6.56 ft / 2.00 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 6.56 ft / 2.00 m
- Stern: 6.56 ft / 2.00 m
- Average freeboard: 7.14 ft / 2.18 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 51.7 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 73.6 %
Waterplane Area: 1,531 Square feet or 142 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 227 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 48 lbs/sq ft or 235 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 1.70
- Longitudinal: 10.32
- Overall: 2.04
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
Room for accommodation and workspaces is cramped
Excellent seaboat, comfortable, can fire her guns in the heaviest weather

Notes and Commentary:
This craft was designed to serve as a supplement to the currently-produced EDA-55 amphibious landing craft, but is designed to carry more cargo. Among the design drivers is the limitations imposed by the well-dock of the currently-under-construction landing ship Châteaurenault, which is 45m long by 15.5m wide by 2.75 meters deep. As currently proposed, the Châteaurenault could carry in its dock:
- 2x EDA-200s, 2x EDA-55s, and 1x EA-13
- 6x EDA-55s and 1x EA-13
- 13x EA-13s
- 2x EDA-200s and 5x EA-13s

50

Friday, October 21st 2011, 4:42pm

This is a design proposal based on the historical French Sans Souci-class seaplane tenders, which were completed in 1940... for the Germans. The Germans used them as gunboats, and they all survived the war, and returned to French service as survey vessels.

Quoted

[SIZE=3]Sans Souci-class, French Small Seaplane Tenders laid down 1941[/SIZE]

Displacement:
1,238 t light; 1,277 t standard; 1,523 t normal; 1,720 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
328.08 ft / 314.96 ft x 38.39 ft x 10.50 ft (normal load)
100.00 m / 96.00 m x 11.70 m x 3.20 m

Armament:
1 - 2.95" / 75.0 mm guns in single mounts, 12.87lbs / 5.84kg shells, 1941 Model
Dual purpose gun in a deck mount with hoist
on centreline forward
4 - 1.57" / 40.0 mm guns (2x2 guns), 1.95lbs / 0.89kg shells, 1941 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, all amidships, all raised mounts - superfiring
4 - 0.79" / 20.0 mm guns (2x2 guns), 0.24lbs / 0.11kg shells, 1941 Model
Machine guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
Weight of broadside 22 lbs / 10 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 550

Machinery:
Diesel Internal combustion motors,
Geared drive, 2 shafts, 3,469 shp / 2,588 Kw = 18.00 kts
Range 6,500nm at 15.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 444 tons

Complement:
121 - 158

Cost:
£0.361 million / $1.445 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 3 tons, 0.2 %
Machinery: 92 tons, 6.0 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 793 tons, 52.1 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 285 tons, 18.7 %
Miscellaneous weights: 350 tons, 23.0 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
4,666 lbs / 2,117 Kg = 362.5 x 3.0 " / 75 mm shells or 1.9 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.03
Metacentric height 1.3 ft / 0.4 m
Roll period: 14.4 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 100 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.03
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 2.00

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise forward of midbreak
Block coefficient: 0.420
Length to Beam Ratio: 8.21 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 17.75 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 40 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 25.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 3.94 ft / 1.20 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 19.69 ft / 6.00 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 18.04 ft / 5.50 m
- Mid (50 %): 16.40 ft / 5.00 m (9.84 ft / 3.00 m aft of break)
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 9.84 ft / 3.00 m
- Stern: 9.84 ft / 3.00 m
- Average freeboard: 13.83 ft / 4.22 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 47.6 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 157.2 %
Waterplane Area: 7,537 Square feet or 700 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 274 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 64 lbs/sq ft or 314 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 1.23
- Longitudinal: 2.89
- Overall: 1.34
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Excellent seaboat, comfortable, can fire her guns in the heaviest weather

51

Friday, October 21st 2011, 5:00pm

With an increased use of helicopters and gyroplanes, consideration has been given to the creation of a training vessel to train pilots in ship landings. The vessel's hull is based on a large ramped landing craft.

Quoted

[SIZE=3]Prairial, French Experimental Training Vessel laid down 1942[/SIZE]

Displacement:
370 t light; 380 t standard; 494 t normal; 586 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
150.70 ft / 147.64 ft x 36.09 ft x 5.41 ft (normal load)
45.93 m / 45.00 m x 11.00 m x 1.65 m

Machinery:
Diesel Internal combustion motors,
Geared drive, 2 shafts, 543 shp / 405 Kw = 12.50 kts
Range 8,500nm at 12.50 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 206 tons

Complement:
52 - 68

Cost:
£0.095 million / $0.380 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 0 tons, 0.0 %
Machinery: 14 tons, 2.9 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 206 tons, 41.6 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 124 tons, 25.2 %
Miscellaneous weights: 150 tons, 30.3 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
1,755 lbs / 796 Kg = 16.2 x 6 " / 152 mm shells or 1.5 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.24
Metacentric height 1.6 ft / 0.5 m
Roll period: 11.9 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 80 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.00
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.34

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has raised forecastle
and transom stern
Block coefficient: 0.600
Length to Beam Ratio: 4.09 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 14.89 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 52 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 60
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 10.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.98 ft / 0.30 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 11.81 ft / 3.60 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 11.48 ft / 3.50 m (7.55 ft / 2.30 m aft of break)
- Mid (50 %): 7.55 ft / 2.30 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 7.55 ft / 2.30 m
- Stern: 7.55 ft / 2.30 m
- Average freeboard: 8.36 ft / 2.55 m
Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 43.6 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 112.3 %
Waterplane Area: 4,061 Square feet or 377 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 277 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 42 lbs/sq ft or 203 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 1.14
- Longitudinal: 3.08
- Overall: 1.26
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

Breakdown of Miscellaneous Weights:
- 20 tons for Teledetection Array
- 130 tons for helicopter landing deck

52

Friday, October 21st 2011, 5:23pm

Agreed its probably a good idea. Although this ship won't have the funnel gases and big structure most warships will have for the really turbulent air it will give good indications of how to cope with rolling and pitching decks etc.

53

Friday, October 21st 2011, 5:33pm

Quoted

Breakdown of Miscellaneous Weights:
- 20 tons for Teledetection Array
- 130 tons for helicopter landing deck

... and what about the helicopter/gyroplane itself? Or do you consider that covered by the "helicopter landing deck" weight? :)

Considering the HS you got left, I assume that the transom is there for visual style only because of the hull it is based on, right?

54

Friday, October 21st 2011, 5:49pm

Quoted

Originally posted by Hood
Agreed its probably a good idea. Although this ship won't have the funnel gases and big structure most warships will have for the really turbulent air it will give good indications of how to cope with rolling and pitching decks etc.


It'd be decent for initial training, at the very least - more advanced training could come later on other, larger ships.

The French Navy's idea of helicopter operations at sea is that they are a good way of providing antisubmarine air cover without a floatplane carrier. For warships, floatplanes are still viewed as highly superior - their speed and range is more valued - but there have been serious proposals to place helicopters on other vessels.

The biggest difficulty the French Navy has with helicopters is that, while they've got one decent model, they've not got any other designs in service, and the utility of their only helicopter is a bit limited. That will change soon, however.

Quoted

Originally posted by Rooijen10

Quoted

Breakdown of Miscellaneous Weights:
- 20 tons for Teledetection Array
- 130 tons for helicopter landing deck

... and what about the helicopter/gyroplane itself? Or do you consider that covered by the "helicopter landing deck" weight? :)

Mm, yes and no. The mission profile is that the helicopters are land-based, not based aboard the ship itself. The vessel cruises a decent space offshore and the helicopter trainees take off from their land base, find the Prairial, conduct an approach, set down, spin down the engine a bit, then take off again and either repeat or head back to the barn. While the ship could, in some instances, serve as a "midget aircraft carrier" to refuel a helicopter on deck, there's no hanger and no real facilities to allow them to stay long-term (cabins for the aviators, parts and spares, etc).

Further, I think the weight of the pad is actually higher than what is necessary. If I simmed a 20mm armoured deck, Springsharp gives me an estimated weight of 59 tons.

Quoted

Originally posted by Rooijen10
Considering the HS you got left, I assume that the transom is there for visual style only because of the hull it is based on, right?

Eyup.

I might have a go at drawing it later in order to illustrate the design a bit better. I should note, by the way, that this is still a design proposal only.

55

Friday, October 21st 2011, 6:01pm

Another landing craft design - a refinement of the EDA-215 which is up the thread a ways.

Quoted

[SIZE=3]CDIC-200, French Landing Craft laid down 1941[/SIZE]
[SIZE=1]CDIC - Chalands de débarquement d'infanterie et de chars[/SIZE]

Displacement:
185 t light; 191 t standard; 200 t normal; 207 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
81.79 ft / 80.05 ft x 23.95 ft x 5.25 ft (normal load)
24.93 m / 24.40 m x 7.30 m x 1.60 m

Armament:
4 - 0.79" / 20.0 mm guns (2x2 guns), 0.24lbs / 0.11kg shells, 1941 Model
Machine guns in deck mounts
on centreline ends, evenly spread, all raised mounts
2 - 0.50" / 12.7 mm guns in single mounts, 0.06lbs / 0.03kg shells, 1941 Model
Machine guns in deck mounts
on side, all amidships
Weight of broadside 1 lbs / 0 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 2,500

Machinery:
Diesel Internal combustion motors,
Geared drive, 2 shafts, 106 shp / 79 Kw = 9.00 kts
Range 2,200nm at 9.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 16 tons

Complement:
26 - 34

Cost:
£0.043 million / $0.173 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 0 tons, 0.1 %
Machinery: 3 tons, 1.4 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 102 tons, 51.1 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 15 tons, 7.4 %
Miscellaneous weights: 80 tons, 40.0 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
520 lbs / 236 Kg = 2,129.3 x 0.8 " / 20 mm shells or 0.7 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.11
Metacentric height 0.7 ft / 0.2 m
Roll period: 11.9 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 53 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.00
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.52

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has raised forecastle
and transom stern
Block coefficient: 0.696
Length to Beam Ratio: 3.34 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 11.07 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 58 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 35
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 10.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 9.84 ft / 3.00 m
- Forecastle (25 %): 8.20 ft / 2.50 m (6.56 ft / 2.00 m aft of break)
- Mid (50 %): 6.56 ft / 2.00 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 6.56 ft / 2.00 m
- Stern: 6.56 ft / 2.00 m
- Average freeboard: 7.14 ft / 2.18 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 50.6 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 76.8 %
Waterplane Area: 1,598 Square feet or 148 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 231 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 48 lbs/sq ft or 234 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 1.69
- Longitudinal: 10.40
- Overall: 2.03
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
Room for accommodation and workspaces is cramped
Excellent seaboat, comfortable, can fire her guns in the heaviest weather

56

Friday, October 21st 2011, 6:10pm

Quoted

The mission profile is that the helicopters are land-based, not based aboard the ship itself.

That is true, but when it is on the ship, the weight is on the ship and not at some land base. Not that it would be causing any problems with a hull strength like that... :)

Considering what you said about the weight of the landing pad, I would say it's covered by that 120 tons.

57

Friday, October 21st 2011, 6:19pm

Quoted

Originally posted by Rooijen10

Quoted

The mission profile is that the helicopters are land-based, not based aboard the ship itself.

That is true, but when it is on the ship, the weight is on the ship and not at some land base. Not that it would be causing any problems with a hull strength like that... :)

Considering what you said about the weight of the landing pad, I would say it's covered by that 120 tons.

I agree. I basically simmed the ship to have a wide margin of error for what I saw as its vital role, and ignored all other considerations.

58

Monday, October 24th 2011, 2:21am

Quoted

Originally posted by Brockpaine
This is a design proposal based on the historical French Sans Souci-class seaplane tenders, which were completed in 1940... for the Germans. The Germans used them as gunboats, and they all survived the war, and returned to French service as survey vessels.

Quoted

[SIZE=3]Sans Souci-class, French Small Seaplane Tenders laid down 1941[/SIZE]

Displacement:
1,238 t light; 1,277 t standard; 1,523 t normal; 1,720 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
328.08 ft / 314.96 ft x 38.39 ft x 10.50 ft (normal load)
100.00 m / 96.00 m x 11.70 m x 3.20 m

Armament:
1 - 2.95" / 75.0 mm guns in single mounts, 12.87lbs / 5.84kg shells, 1941 Model
Dual purpose gun in a deck mount with hoist
on centreline forward
4 - 1.57" / 40.0 mm guns (2x2 guns), 1.95lbs / 0.89kg shells, 1941 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, all amidships, all raised mounts - superfiring
4 - 0.79" / 20.0 mm guns (2x2 guns), 0.24lbs / 0.11kg shells, 1941 Model
Machine guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
Weight of broadside 22 lbs / 10 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 550

Machinery:
Diesel Internal combustion motors,
Geared drive, 2 shafts, 3,469 shp / 2,588 Kw = 18.00 kts
Range 6,500nm at 15.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 444 tons

Complement:
121 - 158

Cost:
£0.361 million / $1.445 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 3 tons, 0.2 %
Machinery: 92 tons, 6.0 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 793 tons, 52.1 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 285 tons, 18.7 %
Miscellaneous weights: 350 tons, 23.0 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
4,666 lbs / 2,117 Kg = 362.5 x 3.0 " / 75 mm shells or 1.9 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.03
Metacentric height 1.3 ft / 0.4 m
Roll period: 14.4 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 100 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.03
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 2.00

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise forward of midbreak
Block coefficient: 0.420
Length to Beam Ratio: 8.21 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 17.75 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 40 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 25.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 3.94 ft / 1.20 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 19.69 ft / 6.00 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 18.04 ft / 5.50 m
- Mid (50 %): 16.40 ft / 5.00 m (9.84 ft / 3.00 m aft of break)
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 9.84 ft / 3.00 m
- Stern: 9.84 ft / 3.00 m
- Average freeboard: 13.83 ft / 4.22 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 47.6 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 157.2 %
Waterplane Area: 7,537 Square feet or 700 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 274 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 64 lbs/sq ft or 314 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 1.23
- Longitudinal: 2.89
- Overall: 1.34
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Excellent seaboat, comfortable, can fire her guns in the heaviest weather


This legend makes an interesting comparison with the German proposals for a small seaplane tender, found here.

I based the German design on the original dimensions of the OTL Sans Souci class, making allowances for German doctrinal preferences. It is interesting how convergent evolution works to bring vessels intended for similar purposes closer in design.

59

Wednesday, October 26th 2011, 5:47am

As one of France's preeminent light warships, the Le Fantasque and Mogador-class ships have a fairly high priority for a rebuild to receive radar. However, the design of the ships makes a mere plug-and-play radar installation difficult due to the available miscellaneous weight. I previously anticipated that this would require a re-engining to free up enough hull strength to make the change, and my efforts to do that resulted in a... shipwreck. However, tonight I managed to put together a Level 3 Rebuild which achieved all my main redesign objectives.

The most immediate change is the slimming of the 25mm external armoured belts, which drop down to 12.7mm. I'm going to basically regard the remainder of those belts as armour-quality hull materials, intended to stop splinters and little else. That freed up some tonnage to add radar. The 138mm guns are additionally rebuilt using a later version of the mount, which offers higher firing angles (up to 70 degrees) for antiaircraft use, provides a newer, more robust and reliable power-train and elevation system, improves interior gunhouse working space, replaces the insufficiently-powerful rammer, and gives automated gunlaying capabilities (as is standard on the current range of French ships). The gun barrels from the 1933 guns will be reused. Additionally, the 1933 40mm guns are simultaneously replaced with new-model 40mm guns.

As part of the installation of the electronics suite, some internal fittings will be refurbished, replaced, or modified to free up space and generally make the ship more liveable. New sonar will also be added

Quoted

[SIZE=3]Le Fantasque-class, French Contre-Torpillieurs laid down 1933[/SIZE]

Displacement:
2,852 t light; 2,999 t standard; 3,449 t normal; 3,809 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
457.68 ft / 457.68 ft x 40.68 ft x 17.06 ft (normal load)
139.50 m / 139.50 m x 12.40 m x 5.20 m

Armament:
6 - 5.43" / 138 mm guns (3x2 guns), 89.51lbs / 40.60kg shells, 1942 Model
Dual purpose guns in deck mounts with hoists
on centreline ends, majority forward, 1 raised mount - superfiring
4 - 1.57" / 40.0 mm guns (1x4 guns), 1.95lbs / 0.89kg shells, 1942 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mount
on side amidships, all raised guns
4 - 1.57" / 40.0 mm guns (2x2 guns), 1.95lbs / 0.89kg shells, 1942 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
6 - 0.50" / 12.7 mm guns in single mounts, 0.06lbs / 0.03kg shells, 1933 Model
Machine guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 553 lbs / 251 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 250
12 - 21.7" / 550 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 0.50" / 13 mm 457.68 ft / 139.50 m 8.20 ft / 2.50 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 154 % of normal length
Main belt does not fully cover magazines and engineering spaces

- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 1.97" / 50 mm 0.98" / 25 mm -
2nd: 0.98" / 25 mm 0.20" / 5 mm -
3rd: 0.98" / 25 mm 0.20" / 5 mm -

- Conning tower: 2.36" / 60 mm

Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 2 shafts, 62,419 shp / 46,565 Kw = 36.00 kts
Range 4,700nm at 18.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 810 tons

Complement:
224 - 292

Cost:
£1.841 million / $7.363 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 62 tons, 1.8 %
Armour: 113 tons, 3.3 %
- Belts: 69 tons, 2.0 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 32 tons, 0.9 %
- Armour Deck: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Conning Tower: 12 tons, 0.3 %
Machinery: 1,696 tons, 49.2 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 906 tons, 26.3 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 597 tons, 17.3 %
Miscellaneous weights: 75 tons, 2.2 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
784 lbs / 355 Kg = 9.8 x 5.4 " / 138 mm shells or 0.4 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.20
Metacentric height 1.8 ft / 0.6 m
Roll period: 12.7 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.49
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.00

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise forward of midbreak
and transom stern
Block coefficient: 0.380
Length to Beam Ratio: 11.25 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 24.58 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 62 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 70
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 29.53 ft / 9.00 m
- Forecastle (25 %): 19.69 ft / 6.00 m
- Mid (49 %): 19.69 ft / 6.00 m (9.84 ft / 3.00 m aft of break)
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 9.84 ft / 3.00 m
- Stern: 9.84 ft / 3.00 m
- Average freeboard: 15.65 ft / 4.77 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 176.0 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 72.8 %
Waterplane Area: 11,779 Square feet or 1,094 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 80 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 42 lbs/sq ft or 204 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.50
- Longitudinal: 1.18
- Overall: 0.55
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
Room for accommodation and workspaces is cramped
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform

Breakdown of Miscellaneous Weights:
- 5 tons for hydrophones and ASW detection gear
- 15 tons for depth charges (70x420-lb bombs) or mines (16x2000-lb mines)
- 25 tons for twelve 42G reload torpedoes
- 30 tons for Type 41 electronics suite
Total miscellaneous weight: 75 tons

Level 3 Refit: 15% light tonnage.
- Add radar and miscellaneous weight
- Replace 138mm guns with dual purpose
- Thin external armour belts

60

Friday, October 28th 2011, 3:02am

Sorry I din't leave any slack...

in the original design, but the upgrade looks good.

Radar is now a "must have" on ships of this type.