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By the way, in the main list of new construction, what happened to the Caeser class ships (the 6x12" vessels)?
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Portaerei 1936, Italian Aircraft Carrier laid down 1936
Displacement:
30,000 t light; 30,852 t standard; 35,637 t normal; 39,465 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
856.31 ft / 820.21 ft x 98.43 ft x 29.53 ft (normal load)
261.00 m / 250.00 m x 30.00 m x 9.00 m
Armament:
8 - 5.98" / 152 mm guns in single mounts, 110.23lbs / 50.00kg shells, 1934 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side ends, evenly spread, 4 raised mounts - superfiring
8 - 3.94" / 100 mm guns (4x2 guns), 30.86lbs / 14.00kg shells, 1931 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, all amidships, all raised mounts - superfiring
16 - 1.46" / 37.0 mm guns (4x4 guns), 1.82lbs / 0.83kg shells, 1932 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
12 - 0.98" / 25.0 mm guns (6x2 guns), 0.55lbs / 0.25kg shells, 1936 Model
Machine guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
Weight of broadside 1,164 lbs / 528 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 200
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 5.98" / 152 mm 533.14 ft / 162.50 m 9.84 ft / 3.00 m
Ends: 2.36" / 60 mm 287.04 ft / 87.49 m 9.84 ft / 3.00 m
Main Belt covers 100 % of normal length
- Torpedo Bulkhead:
1.97" / 50 mm 533.14 ft / 162.50 m 32.81 ft / 10.00 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 1.97" / 50 mm 1.18" / 30 mm 0.79" / 20 mm
2nd: 0.12" / 3 mm 0.79" / 20 mm 0.79" / 20 mm
3rd: 0.39" / 10 mm 0.39" / 10 mm -
4th: 0.39" / 10 mm - -
- Armour deck: 4.33" / 110 mm, Conning tower: 2.76" / 70 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 4 shafts, 140,000 shp / 104,440 Kw = 31.58 kts
Range 6,000nm at 25.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 8,614 tons
Complement:
1,296 - 1,685
Cost:
£9.063 million / $36.250 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 141 tons, 0.4 %
Armour: 7,572 tons, 21.2 %
- Belts: 1,577 tons, 4.4 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 1,274 tons, 3.6 %
- Armament: 75 tons, 0.2 %
- Armour Deck: 4,581 tons, 12.9 %
- Conning Tower: 64 tons, 0.2 %
Machinery: 3,928 tons, 11.0 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 9,933 tons, 27.9 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 5,637 tons, 15.8 %
Miscellaneous weights: 8,425 tons, 23.6 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
53,224 lbs / 24,142 Kg = 496.7 x 6.0 " / 152 mm shells or 8.9 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.20
Metacentric height 6.8 ft / 2.1 m
Roll period: 15.8 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 61 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.04
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.41
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has raised forecastle
and transom stern
Block coefficient: 0.523
Length to Beam Ratio: 8.33 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 33.07 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 51 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 43
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 30.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 5.31 ft / 1.62 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 53.31 ft / 16.25 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 54.95 ft / 16.75 m (17.22 ft / 5.25 m aft of break)
- Mid (50 %): 17.22 ft / 5.25 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 17.22 ft / 5.25 m
- Stern: 17.22 ft / 5.25 m
- Average freeboard: 24.64 ft / 7.51 m
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 82.3 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 144.7 %
Waterplane Area: 57,175 Square feet or 5,312 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 143 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 123 lbs/sq ft or 600 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 1.01
- Longitudinal: 1.00
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily
2.75m Internal deck hight plus .5m Void
Hanger hight is 11m
Misc Wieght breakdown
--5184t for 72 Aircraft.
--2100t for 50mm flight deck armor.
--500t for crated spares, parts, and workshops
--150t Aircraft Operations Center
--150t Flag Facilities
--100t RADAR
----2xRSC.1 Suface Warning (10t each)
----2xRAC.1 Air Warning (10t each)
----6xRCF.1 General Gunnery Directors (10t each)
--125t Inert gas shielding for AVGAS lines and tanks
--50t Two hydraulic catapults on bow-end of flight deck
--50t Crew Comfort considerations
--16t Reserve
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The design is heavier than Garibaldi by 650 tons. Certainly not saving any tonnage.
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This ship is the same size and only slightly heavier yet carries 12 extra aircraft plus those extra 100mm guns etc.
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The designs should not differ much from the existing
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Impavido 1933 - 4x2104
Squadrista 1934 - 2x1583
Rosolino Pilo 1936 - 4x2301
Antonio Mosto 1937 - 4x1648
Rimini 1938 - 12x4284
Venezia 1942 - 14x2250
Admiral 1944 - 12x2700
52 destroyers, 142,686 tons
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DD 1933 - 4x2500
DD 1935 - 4x2500
DD 1937 - 4x2500
DD 1939 - 12x2500
DD 1941 - 12x2500
DD 1943 - 12x2500
48 destroyers, 120,000 tons
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San Calepodio 1932 - 2x6905
Duca degli Abruzzi 1934 - 2x8095
Ischia 1935 - 4x4581
Lombardia 1936 - 4x9910
Genoa 1942 - 4x9750
16 light cruisers, 126964 tons
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CL 1932 - 2x8000
CL 1934 - 2x8000
CL 1936 - 2x8000
CL 1938 - 2x10000
CL 1940 - 2x10000
CL 1942 - 2x10000
CL 1944 - 2x10000
14 light cruisers, 128,000 tons
I wonder if there is scope for the mods to do some hand-waving, some kind of gentleman's agreement that some of surplus ships were built by raiding civilian IP/tonnage, perhaps to be paid back later?
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This ship is the same size and only slightly heavier yet carries 12 extra aircraft plus those extra 100mm guns etc.
It is all about calculations. On the original design, it was 6,000 tons for 60 aircraft (at 100 tons each). Now it is 5,184 tons for 72 aircraft (at 72 tons each). On the original design though, it had an armored hangar which is most likely why 100 tons was used.
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The new Reginia Elena might get built still. Would depend on what else needs doing. I sort of like having one of (if not the) fastest capital ships in WW.
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So the answer is either a) cutting hull numbers of existing ships, b) redesigning certain classes that won't fit the available budget to save weight c) a mixture of a & c.
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We had a debate on implementing his formula, but the proposal was voted down since it would have cut the airgroups of all non-Italian carriers by 25-50%. RA continued designing to that calculation, however. Since his formula assigned more weight per aircraft than our rules called for, the mods never saw reason to take action on it while he was here. I.E. "oh well, your loss."
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British-type carriers with armored flight decks may require a lower airgroup limit, perhaps 2/3 the number generated by this rule.
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We had a debate on implementing his formula, but the proposal was voted down since it would have cut the airgroups of all non-Italian carriers by 25-50%. RA continued designing to that calculation, however. Since his formula assigned more weight per aircraft than our rules called for, the mods never saw reason to take action on it while he was here. I.E. "oh well, your loss."
Looking at it, I get the impression that he used armored flightdecks and according the SS notes:
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British-type carriers with armored flight decks may require a lower airgroup limit, perhaps 2/3 the number generated by this rule.
... so if the Guiseppe Garibaldi is like that, with 6000 tons that is actually only enough for 51 planes if you use 2/3 of the number generated by the SS rules.
Depending how the proposed Italian building schedule progresses, I have a concern that may go away. However, in looking at the plan previously posted I note that the Italian stockpile at the end of 4Q30 exceeds 100,000 tons.
This violates our current stockpile rule (where a nation's total stockpile may not exceed one years production) and it certainly violates the stockpile rule in play at the time of the original sim reports. In the circumstances, I feel that a rolling stockpile up to our current limit (which for Italy, with 18+2 factories in 1930 would be 80,000 tons) would be acceptable, but I would not want to see a stockpile grow beyond it. Doing so would make the final version of the Italian Navy far younger that it would otherwise be.
Depending how the proposed Italian building schedule progresses, I have a concern that may go away. However, in looking at the plan previously posted I note that the Italian stockpile at the end of 4Q30 exceeds 100,000 tons.
This violates our current stockpile rule (where a nation's total stockpile may not exceed one years production) and it certainly violates the stockpile rule in play at the time of the original sim reports. In the circumstances, I feel that a rolling stockpile up to our current limit (which for Italy, with 18+2 factories in 1930 would be 80,000 tons) would be acceptable, but I would not want to see a stockpile grow beyond it. Doing so would make the final version of the Italian Navy far younger that it would otherwise be.
As things take greater shape I would flesh out that period more.
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Another thought, did any of the excess tonnage take Italy over the Cleito Treaty limits? This would have to be another consideration during the early period of the new reports.
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Walter, you mean this isn't the Cleito Treaty?
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My recollection is that SATSUMA disbelieved a class of cruisers qualified as the Class A ships they were claimed to be. I don't recall Italy being over it specific tonnage allocations per se.
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Portaerei 1936, Italian Aircraft Carrier laid down 1936
Displacement:
29,000 t light; 29,829 t standard; 34,498 t normal; 38,233 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
856.31 ft / 820.21 ft x 98.43 ft x 29.53 ft (normal load)
261.00 m / 250.00 m x 30.00 m x 9.00 m
Armament:
8 - 5.98" / 152 mm guns in single mounts, 110.23lbs / 50.00kg shells, 1934 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side ends, evenly spread, 4 raised mounts - superfiring
8 - 3.94" / 100 mm guns (4x2 guns), 30.86lbs / 14.00kg shells, 1931 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, all amidships, all raised mounts - superfiring
16 - 1.46" / 37.0 mm guns (4x4 guns), 1.82lbs / 0.83kg shells, 1932 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
12 - 0.98" / 25.0 mm guns (6x2 guns), 0.55lbs / 0.25kg shells, 1936 Model
Machine guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
Weight of broadside 1,164 lbs / 528 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 200
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 5.98" / 152 mm 533.14 ft / 162.50 m 9.84 ft / 3.00 m
Ends: 2.36" / 60 mm 287.04 ft / 87.49 m 9.84 ft / 3.00 m
Main Belt covers 100 % of normal length
- Torpedo Bulkhead:
1.97" / 50 mm 533.14 ft / 162.50 m 32.81 ft / 10.00 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 1.97" / 50 mm 1.18" / 30 mm 0.79" / 20 mm
2nd: 0.12" / 3 mm 0.79" / 20 mm 0.79" / 20 mm
3rd: 0.39" / 10 mm 0.39" / 10 mm -
4th: 0.39" / 10 mm - -
- Armour deck: 4.33" / 110 mm, Conning tower: 2.76" / 70 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 4 shafts, 140,000 shp / 104,440 Kw = 31.81 kts
Range 6,000nm at 25.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 8,404 tons
Complement:
1,265 - 1,645
Cost:
£8.878 million / $35.512 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 141 tons, 0.4 %
Armour: 7,497 tons, 21.7 %
- Belts: 1,576 tons, 4.6 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 1,274 tons, 3.7 %
- Armament: 75 tons, 0.2 %
- Armour Deck: 4,509 tons, 13.1 %
- Conning Tower: 63 tons, 0.2 %
Machinery: 3,928 tons, 11.4 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 9,733 tons, 28.2 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 5,498 tons, 15.9 %
Miscellaneous weights: 7,700 tons, 22.3 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
52,195 lbs / 23,675 Kg = 487.1 x 6.0 " / 152 mm shells or 8.8 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.21
Metacentric height 7.0 ft / 2.1 m
Roll period: 15.7 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 61 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.04
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.43
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has raised forecastle
and transom stern
Block coefficient: 0.507
Length to Beam Ratio: 8.33 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 33.14 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 50 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 43
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 30.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 5.31 ft / 1.62 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 53.31 ft / 16.25 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 54.95 ft / 16.75 m (17.22 ft / 5.25 m aft of break)
- Mid (50 %): 17.22 ft / 5.25 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 17.22 ft / 5.25 m
- Stern: 17.22 ft / 5.25 m
- Average freeboard: 24.64 ft / 7.51 m
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 82.1 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 146.0 %
Waterplane Area: 56,278 Square feet or 5,228 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 143 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 122 lbs/sq ft or 595 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 1.00
- Longitudinal: 1.01
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily
2.75m Internal deck hight plus .5m Void
Hanger height is 11m
Misc Wieght breakdown
--5184t for 72 Aircraft.
--1350t for 30mm flightdeck armor
--500t for crated spares, parts, and workshops
--150t Aircraft Operations Center
--150t Flag Facilities
--100t RADAR
----2xRSC.1 Surface Warning (10t each)
----2xRAC.1 Air Warning (10t each)
----6xRCF.1 General Gunnery Directors (10t each)
--125t Inert gas shielding for AVGAS lines and tanks
--50t Two hydraulic catapults on bow-end of flight deck
--50t Crew Comfort considerations
--16t Reserve
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